*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur vs Saudi Sportswashing ***

[braineclipse]

Of course we are. The unwanted record breakers

This is one of the best "records" to have given our start to the seas in terms of results.

Luck will always be a part of football, but over time those chances and touches in the opposition box will be translated to results if we can keep playing like this.

 

[glasgowspur]

One thing I was happy with is how after we equalised is that unlike the Leicester game we didn’t collapse. We still dominated and didn't allow them to played our game.

 

[DubSpur]

Just looked and we had 1.24 to Leicester’s 1.02 Xg and Saudi Sportswashing Machine had 1.57 to our 1.26 Xg.

I’m not a big lover of the stat but I think it does tell a story in our case. We aren’t missing big chances by any means and, for all our dominance in games, we cough up much better chances than we create. I don’t need Xg to tell me that, I see it with my own eyes.

The Xg is useful to a certain degree but where it falls down is if a move doesn't end up with a shot. We created loads of good situations and put in a number of great crosses but unfortunately the strikers that we have that would take advantage of those situations weren't playing. Those crosses are good chances but don't count in Xg. Hopefully this all changes when Solanke is back.

The concern for me is that we keep giving away high quality chances that even poor teams will take advantage of.

 

[Robspur12]

Yeah…lots of fans were crying out for attacking football under Jose/Conte. This is it. Attacking football leaves you vulnerable. I think some fans believe “attack is the best form of defence” means it’s possible to be solid when you play very offensive football. It doesn’t, it means you’ll pin teams back but you’re ultra vulnerable on the break.

To be fair, peak Poch had a pretty good balance. I think Ange has the balance wrong but it’s a much better watch than Jose/Conte and if he reigns in the attacking, we won’t dominate teams as much as we’ve done at times in the opening 3 games. And in all those games, we’ve battered the opposition for sustained periods.

Not necessarily in my view Deano. Klopp managed it. Peak Poch managed it; Spain did it at this years Euros. It has to be managed attack. So if the full backs are high up the pitch one or both of the midfielders covers for them. Liverpool had Fabinho and/or Henderson, we had Dembele and or Wanyama/Dier. I can't see that happening in Ange's system so I think the balance is wrong leaving us open in the transition between attack and defence.

 

[DubSpur]

I said it in the transfer thread earlier in the week, but we needed to be a bit braver in the transfer market and buy at least one top quality game changer per window.
That's where ENIC will continue to fail the club.

This window it was Eze. We won't be able to get him next year as he will end up at City, arsenal or Madrid.
The same thing happens every year.

By a game changer I assume you mean a world class or close to world class player? It's almost impossible for us to get those types of player. They go for top money and usually only to teams that consistently win things. Our best bet is doing what we seem to be doing now, buying the best young talent available. Gray, Bergvall, and Odobert all look like players that will develop into the type of player that you think we should be signing.

Getting a striker was a bigger priority than getting Eze this summer and that's where the money went. Either way we weren't getting Eze. Palace have sold players and didn't need the money. Eze will also know that bigger teams are interested and will want to hang on till next summer.

 

[DubSpur]

He nearly makes the cross, nearly finds his man, nearly gets a touch on goal.

He made a few great crosses. You're laying the blame at the wrong player for nobody getting on those crosses. Son and Odobert should've been getting on to the end of them instead of hanging back doing nothing in positions that they were never going to get a cross to.

 

[billyiddo]

Just looked and we had 1.24 to Leicester’s 1.02 Xg and Saudi Sportswashing Machine had 1.57 to our 1.26 Xg.

I’m not a big lover of the stat but I think it does tell a story in our case. We aren’t missing big chances by any means and, for all our dominance in games, we cough up much better chances than we create. I don’t need Xg to tell me that, I see it with my own eyes.

It tells us the quality of shots we actually took were poor/low probability chances, not much else.

We attempted 26 crosses, according to Live Score App and had a lot of possession in the opponents third & box, a low xg along with those stats starts to paint a picture.

Watching the game, as with the Leicester game as the same problems were on show, I think a lot of problems lay (attack wise) through not having a proper CF who attacks the box and/or who can get shots away when the ball is played in to his feet (in the box) or who can hold it up with his back to goal and lay it off to a team mate who can shoot. To me that's a pretty big piece of the jigsaw missing and hopefully Solanke can provide that.

Defensively we can all see the problems, I do have an incling that should we start being more efficient at the other end that our goals against numbers will start to drop too.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just to flag up the Xg numbers quoted on here don’t include Brennan’s shot as it ended with an OG
understat do in theirs and t the Xg because of that is higher (if anyone is interested)
With them we had an Xg of 1.63 vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine 1.59
And half of Newcastles Xg was the open goal they scored

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not necessarily in my view Deano. Klopp managed it. Peak Poch managed it; Spain did it at this years Euros. It has to be managed attack. So if the full backs are high up the pitch one or both of the midfielders covers for them. Liverpool had Fabinho and/or Henderson, we had Dembele and or Wanyama/Dier. I can't see that happening in Ange's system so I think the balance is wrong leaving us open in the transition between attack and defence.

That is why the first goal we conceded was so frustrating. We had players back but they weren’t alert. Castle moved the ball quicker than we were able to react.

Second we’re chasing the win throwing everything at them. With VDV their second may not be a goal. But yes it was a bit naive.

 

[DeanoAustin]

It tells us the quality of shots we actually took were poor/low probability chances, not much else.

We attempted 26 crosses, according to Live Score App and had a lot of possession in the opponents third & box, a low xg along with those stats starts to paint a picture.

Watching the game, as with the Leicester game as the same problems were on show, I think a lot of problems lay (attack wise) through not having a proper CF who attacks the box and/or who can get shots away when the ball is played in to his feet (in the box) or who can hold it up with his back to goal and lay it off to a team mate who can shoot. To me that's a pretty big piece of the jigsaw missing and hopefully Solanke can provide that.

Defensively we can all see the problems, I do have an incling that should we start being more efficient at the other end that our goals against numbers will start to drop too.

It's an interesting argument but I don't agree. Under Ange, we've scored 80 league goals in 41 league games which is about the average for the top 10 last year. Really, only the top 3 plus Saudi Sportswashing Machine have scored significantly more. I don't see us banging in lots more goals and that then stopping the rot at the other end.

Even taking the three games this season (which admittedly is too small a sample size to draw conclusions) - we didn't create great chances v Leicester with Solanke. We played some great football, particularly first half, but we weren't missing sitters.

Against Everton, without Solanke, we scored 4. That's not to say we are better without a CF and I didn't see the Everton game but from what I heard, they were poor, open and all over the shop. We'll batter teams like that. But those results aren't what wins you things. It's about being able to win tight games - we don't do that.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Not necessarily in my view Deano. Klopp managed it. Peak Poch managed it; Spain did it at this years Euros. It has to be managed attack. So if the full backs are high up the pitch one or both of the midfielders covers for them. Liverpool had Fabinho and/or Henderson, we had Dembele and or Wanyama/Dier. I can't see that happening in Ange's system so I think the balance is wrong leaving us open in the transition between attack and defence.

You're right and that was the point I was trying to make but did it badly. There has to be a balance and some teams get it right (I said in another post that peak-Poch got it very right). I think Ange has it wrong - it's good football, it's a great watch but the balance is wrong.

Incidentally, I don't think Klopp had it that right. Liverpool were always very vulnerable to balls over the top - Conte in particular exploited it really well in his first season. Klopp also had a truly top keeper and centre back that solidified things a bit at the back.

 

[billyiddo]

It's an interesting argument but I don't agree. Under Ange, we've scored 80 league goals in 41 league games which is about the average for the top 10 last year. Really, only the top 3 plus Saudi Sportswashing Machine have scored significantly more. I don't see us banging in lots more goals and that then stopping the rot at the other end.

Even taking the three games this season (which admittedly is too small a sample size to draw conclusions) - we didn't create great chances v Leicester with Solanke. We played some great football, particularly first half, but we weren't missing sitters.

Against Everton, without Solanke, we scored 4. That's not to say we are better without a CF and I didn't see the Everton game but from what I heard, they were poor, open and all over the shop. We'll batter teams like that. But those results aren't what wins you things. It's about being able to win tight games - we don't do that.

Well it was his first game... h owever, I did see him occupying the positions that we need our CF to and that he offered the type of play described in my post, that will be a positive improvement to our game over the course of a season, time will tell though.

 

[Bishop]

Yeah, figures. Also where he played for us under Conte for a while.

Am I misremembering, or did he also play in a three for Argentina when they won the WC?

Argentina didn't play with the defensive line in the halfway line. They were fairly compact and defended in numbers when they lost the ball. They are a possession side but they drop back and fill when they lose the ball.

 

[Muttley]

It's an interesting argument but I don't agree. Under Ange, we've scored 80 league goals in 41 league games which is about the average for the top 10 last year. Really, only the top 3 plus Saudi Sportswashing Machine have scored significantly more. I don't see us banging in lots more goals and that then stopping the rot at the other end.

Even taking the three games this season (which admittedly is too small a sample size to draw conclusions) - we didn't create great chances v Leicester with Solanke. We played some great football, particularly first half, but we weren't missing sitters.

Against Everton, without Solanke, we scored 4. That's not to say we are better without a CF and I didn't see the Everton game but from what I heard, they were poor, open and all over the shop. We'll batter teams like that. But those results aren't what wins you things. It's about being able to win tight games - we don't do that.

I agree.

Last season was about removing a club legend that had scored 30 goals and making sure the equivalent goals were shared around the team in a new system. With a new manager, we actually managed to do that and started having 10 outfield players contributing in a single team ethic. However, we discovered that our manager had no priority on clean sheets and a lean defensive system in the short term. He was playing some sort of long game with the club on the assumption that we'd eventually figure that piece out. That perhaps masked the problems we had converting chances.

As we transitioned to this season, I think we need to start seeing improvement in both areas. As you say, based on the sample set of 3 league games there has to be some concerns building. Tight games in the Prem is about defending well in key moments and getting a clean sheet. It's about getting 1 or 2 chances and converting one of them.

Part of me has always thought that Ange's approach is quite arrogant considering he's the one with zero Prem experience.

 

[Muttley]

Argentina didn't play with the defensive line in the halfway line. They were fairly compact and defended in numbers when they lost the ball. They are a possession side but they drop back and fill when they lose the ball.

When they won the WC, they were doing something to compensate for Otamendi's age from what I remember. Probably, sticking in a deeper number 6 and getting one or both of the full-backs to tuck in alongside.

It was amazing how well the Romero / Otamendi partnership played in that competition.

 

[Dicko]

Did anyone see a new stat (For me at least) come on the screen during the second half... It was 'Touches in the final 3rd' and when it appeared mid way through the second half it showed 70 odd touches for us and only 2 for them! It instantly made me think back to games like West Ham where we dominate and then eventually concede late on. It's frustrating but it does feel like once we get up to speed, and with Solanke or Richarlison back up front we might start giving the odd opponent here and there a good hammering (Even if we do concede the odd goal almost every game!)

 

[Bishop]

It's an interesting argument but I don't agree. Under Ange, we've scored 80 league goals in 41 league games which is about the average for the top 10 last year. Really, only the top 3 plus Saudi Sportswashing Machine have scored significantly more. I don't see us banging in lots more goals and that then stopping the rot at the other end.

Even taking the three games this season (which admittedly is too small a sample size to draw conclusions) - we didn't create great chances v Leicester with Solanke. We played some great football, particularly first half, but we weren't missing sitters.

Against Everton, without Solanke, we scored 4. That's not to say we are better without a CF and I didn't see the Everton game but from what I heard, they were poor, open and all over the shop. We'll batter teams like that. But those results aren't what wins you things. It's about being able to win tight games - we don't do that.

Everyone is focusing on the striker so much when what need is goal scoring wingers. We need players who are offering a genuine threat from the wide positions, directly threatening to score themselves or consistently turning their defenders inside and out and opening space for other to take advantage.

All the teams who play a system somewhat like ourselves successfully have these type of players and it's what makes it work. Wingers who offer no threat themselves or can only play hopeful balls inside are not winning us the league, hell at this rate it might not even get us top 4, because for the intricate movement and shapes we take up our play just is not incisive enough.

How often in these first three matches have we seen a pass played through the lines that given a forward a genuine 1 in 1 shot on goal. It's barely happened and considering all the possession we've had and all the touches in the opposition penalty boxes it shows our play is incredibly blunt. Even yesterday we only scored because Maddison did that thing that is forbidden, he took a shot and the keeper fumbled it to Johnson. Without that risk taking shot we probably would have never scored.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Did anyone see a new stat (For me at least) come on the screen during the second half... It was 'Touches in the final 3rd' and when it appeared mid way through the second half it showed 70 odd touches for us and only 2 for them! It instantly made me think back to games like West Ham where we dominate and then eventually concede late on. It's frustrating but it does feel like once we get up to speed, and with Solanke or Richarlison back up front we might start giving the odd opponent here and there a good hammering (Even if we do concede the odd goal almost every game!)

Yep
They scored 2 minute later
Another one is passed per defensive action… which again is how a team is attacking vs a team defending

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Everyone is focusing on the striker so much when what need is goal scoring wingers. We need players who are offering a genuine threat from the wide positions, directly threatening to score themselves or consistently turning their defenders inside and out and opening space for other to take advantage.

All the teams who play a system somewhat like ourselves successfully have these type of players and it's what makes it work. Wingers who offer no threat themselves or can only play hopeful balls inside are not winning us the league, hell at this rate it might not even get us top 4, because for the intricate movement and shapes we take up our play just is not incisive enough.

How often in these first three matches have we seen a pass played through the lines that given a forward a genuine 1 in 1 shot on goal. It's barely happened and considering all the possession we've had and all the touches in the opposition penalty boxes it shows our play is incredibly blunt. Even yesterday we only scored because Maddison did that thing that is forbidden, he took a shot and the keeper fumbled it to Johnson. Without that risk taking shot we probably would have never scored.

Maddison is meant to make those passes you talk about to put someone in… haven’t seen that yet
Ange ball is not the way you describe with WF as goal scorers. They are there to play wide, attack the back post in reverse and hit crosses
It’s not the way pool or arsenal play

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I didn’t
Ponderous and slow time after time. Takes too many touches and isn’t playing with the quick one touch vibe he did early last seasons
He also made the balls up I’ve just seen for their second goal
If you press, you have to have conviction. It was weak and the ball got passed exactly where he was
Did you go (I know you go to quite a few away games)?

But harsh on Madison. He was on a yellow and I'd guess Joelinton could bust pass most people?.

I agree on some of your other observations....Madders is a bit too 'conductor' sometimes...just keep the ball moving.