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Olympic games Paris 2024

braineclipse said:
What I don't get is the part where that isn't true. Or at the very least isn't a statement supported by a strong scientific consensus.

If she is intersex and has xy chromosomes that doesn't mean that biologically she's a man. That means that biologically she's intersex and that there's not really a clear standard for saying that biologically she's a man.

As an example people who are intersex may have some cells with XY chromosomes, some that do not.

Essentially my opinion:
my.clevelandclinic.org

Intersex: What Is Intersex, Gender Identity, Intersex Surgery

Being intersex means having anatomy that doesn’t fit into a male/female sex binary. Most intersex people are healthy and surgery isn’t necessary.
my.clevelandclinic.org my.clevelandclinic.org

You may call that an unscientific opinion all you want, but a lot of actual scientists, actual biologists, would agree with that.

That's of course ignoring that we have one disreputable source for the claim that she even has XY chromosomes.

I'm not looking to find offense wherever I can. I think I said in my first post that I wasn't looking to have a go and that this is a topic a lot of people don't have a lot of knowledge on.
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As I already stated on a couple of times I mean it's genotypic male, will include that in future to be clear. If that is the case then protocols need to be in place. She could still be phenotypic female. There are also cases where they are phenotypic female and there have been internal testes that the person didn't know about. This could lead to levels of testosterone that is way above a normal female level giving an unfair advantage and in boxing could make it unsafe. It's a grey area and shouldn't be just based on what is on a passport.

Again, I'm not saying in this case that she shouldn't definitely be allowed to box, just that where there is doubt that protocols should be in place to decide it. It would have stopped a lot of the crap she is now having to deal with, although I'm sure some would still be abusing her, while making sure the boxing is safe.
 
DubSpur said:
As I already stated on a couple of times I mean it's genotypic male, will include that in future to be clear. If that is the case then protocols need to be in place. She could still be phenotypic female. There are also cases where they are phenotypic female and there have been internal testes that the person didn't know about. This could lead to levels of testosterone that is way above a normal female level giving an unfair advantage and in boxing could make it unsafe. It's a grey area and shouldn't be just based on what is on a passport.

Again, I'm not saying in this case that she shouldn't definitely be allowed to box, just that where there is doubt that protocols should be in place to decide it. It would have stopped a lot of the crap she is now having to deal with, although I'm sure some would still be abusing her, while making sure the boxing is safe.
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Yes, because phenotype is also biological. And no, the genotype wouldn't necessarily be male. But yes, could include some male elements. Intersex.

Unfair advantage I think is a really difficult line to draw. I have no real clue where that line should be. As I've said, I have no real clear opinions on that.

Safety concerns in a sport like boxing should be important for sure. Again, not sure where the line should be drawn. If there's an appropriate testosterone limit to be put perhaps that's an option. Again, I don't really know where the line should be, but I definitely agree that some threshold perhaps could be warranted.

I have no idea if she would be above those thresholds or not. What we do know is that it's not like she has some biological advantage that makes her much better than other elite female boxers in her weight class. Is she is above a threshold like that it's probably not by much?

For me the abuse she has received, that has indirectly also been aimed at intersex people in general (we still don't actually know if she is intersex imo) and at trans people has been worse and arguably more harmful than any actual issue with her participation. My objection to your previous post should not in any way be seen as your post being in the same category as that abuse though.
 
braineclipse said:
Yes, because phenotype is also biological. And no, the genotype wouldn't necessarily be male. But yes, could include some male elements. Intersex.

Unfair advantage I think is a really difficult line to draw. I have no real clue where that line should be. As I've said, I have no real clear opinions on that.

Safety concerns in a sport like boxing should be important for sure. Again, not sure where the line should be drawn. If there's an appropriate testosterone limit to be put perhaps that's an option. Again, I don't really know where the line should be, but I definitely agree that some threshold perhaps could be warranted.

I have no idea if she would be above those thresholds or not. What we do know is that it's not like she has some biological advantage that makes her much better than other elite female boxers in her weight class. Is she is above a threshold like that it's probably not by much?

For me the abuse she has received, that has indirectly also been aimed at intersex people in general (we still don't actually know if she is intersex imo) and at trans people has been worse and arguably more harmful than any actual issue with her participation. My objection to your previous post should not in any way be seen as your post being in the same category as that abuse though.
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Don’t disagree with much here, except the final paragraph. It’s potentially more harmful for her to participate and potentially seriously injure another woman than the abuse she and others like her receive. Not that I am condoning, but a worst case scenario could be that she potentially fractures someone’s skull or worse which has happened in UFC. Not conflating this with trans people but it’s a similar issue and for me it’s disappointing that people often care more about intersex and trans people participating above fairness and safety. Athletes like Tom Daley said once that he thinks it’s unfair that trans people aren’t allowed to compete, well that’s easy for him to say when it doesn’t affect him does it. Funny how you rarely see intersex and trans athletes competing against men. I’m sure it happens but it’s extremely rare for someone to dominate mens sport like they often do in women’s swimming at the US collegiate level. Again I know this particular athlete isn’t trans and shouldn’t be confused as one but it’s so similar to the conundrum we have in trying to integrate trans athletes into elite level sport. My view would always be to err on the side of caution, fairness and safety must always come above inclusion.
 
tommysvr said:
View attachment 17479


Little ol' Australia not doing too badly. Populations of the top 7:

1. USA - 333m
2. CHN - 1.412b
3. AUS - 26m
4. FRA - 68m
5. GBR - 67m
6. KOR - 51m
7. JPN - 125m
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Most successful Olympics for the Aussies in terms of gold medals IIRC? What would you put that down to? Extra investment in sport for example? We’ve actually got more medals than you in total but too not enough golds, fine margins in elite sport I guess. Could have easily got gold in men’s 400m last night and in the 1500m the night before.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Most successful Olympics for the Aussies in terms of gold medals IIRC? What would you put that down to? Extra investment in sport for example? We’ve actually got more medals than you in total but too not enough golds, fine margins in elite sport I guess. Could have easily got gold in men’s 400m last night and in the 1500m the night before.
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Yep best ever apparently. Not sure why to be honest -- we've always been strong in the pool, but it seems like our athletics program has improved a lot in past 10 years or so. I guess it probably all comes down to funding.
 
Very impressive return by the Aussies.

If it were not for the lottery funding and the private school sports network we would have Keely Hodgkinson and that is it.
 
Daisuk said:
Only 26 mill in Australia! Thought you were at least 50! Also odd that India, with a population of over a billion have only gotten four bronze medals. Where are all the Indian athletes?
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There's no culture for top level sports there, maybe with the exception of cricket. Also, working out in +50 degrees is probably not very tempting.
 
Daisuk said:
Only 26 mill in Australia! Thought you were at least 50! Also odd that India, with a population of over a billion have only gotten four bronze medals. Where are all the Indian athletes?
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That said, they might get a gold tonight in the Athletics! They actually have the reigning champion in javelin.
 
Kandi1977 said:
That said, they might get a gold tonight in the Athletics! They actually have the reigning champion in javelin.
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Even a guy from Pakistan throwing now. They don't have many athletes either, probably quite similar culture to India.
 
johnola said:
Very impressive return by the Aussies.

If it were not for the lottery funding and the private school sports network we would have Keely Hodgkinson and that is it.
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'Only' 33% of GB squad were privately educated (which is still high compared to only 7% of population attending)

Interestingly, 58% of the Australian Olympians went to private schools.....
 
Jurgen the German said:
Don’t disagree with much here, except the final paragraph. It’s potentially more harmful for her to participate and potentially seriously injure another woman than the abuse she and others like her receive. Not that I am condoning, but a worst case scenario could be that she potentially fractures someone’s skull or worse which has happened in UFC. Not conflating this with trans people but it’s a similar issue and for me it’s disappointing that people often care more about intersex and trans people participating above fairness and safety. Athletes like Tom Daley said once that he thinks it’s unfair that trans people aren’t allowed to compete, well that’s easy for him to say when it doesn’t affect him does it. Funny how you rarely see intersex and trans athletes competing against men. I’m sure it happens but it’s extremely rare for someone to dominate mens sport like they often do in women’s swimming at the US collegiate level. Again I know this particular athlete isn’t trans and shouldn’t be confused as one but it’s so similar to the conundrum we have in trying to integrate trans athletes into elite level sport. My view would always be to err on the side of caution, fairness and safety must always come above inclusion.
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In a way we are in perfect agreement. You said "potentially" more dangerous one way, I said arguably more dangerous the other way. We can't actually know for sure.

What I think is quite clear is that bullying, cyber bullying, abuse etc based on gender, sex etc causes real and lasting real world harm to many people around the world.

It's impossible to quantify the damage done to people by this latest outpouring of hate and abuse at intersex people and trans people. The bullying and abuse it has lead to through further normalising this kind of language. Being the target of this kind of hate even indirectly as an intersex person, a trans person or even just a cis person self conscious about their appearance isn't a pleasant experience.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the harm of that is greater than the potential harm of her participating. (And again, imo we still don't know if she's actually intersex). But we can't actually know for sure.

Not aimed at anyone on here. But the online brick bags who spout abuse seemingly entirely uncaring about the harm they're causing while claiming to care about other people's safety can absolutely 100% fudge right off.

I agree that intersex and trans people in elite sport is a conundrum. I don't have all the answers. But I do know that whatever is being said by biggots using that as a wedge issue to spread their hate about trans people are not the people worth listening to on that issue. And there's quite a lot of them around online. Again, definitely not aimed at anyone here.
 
braineclipse said:
In a way we are in perfect agreement. You said "potentially" more dangerous one way, I said arguably more dangerous the other way. We can't actually know for sure.

What I think is quite clear is that bullying, cyber bullying, abuse etc based on gender, sex etc causes real and lasting real world harm to many people around the world.

It's impossible to quantify the damage done to people by this latest outpouring of hate and abuse at intersex people and trans people. The bullying and abuse it has lead to through further normalising this kind of language. Being the target of this kind of hate even indirectly as an intersex person, a trans person or even just a cis person self conscious about their appearance isn't a pleasant experience.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the harm of that is greater than the potential harm of her participating. (And again, imo we still don't know if she's actually intersex). But we can't actually know for sure.

Not aimed at anyone on here. But the online brick bags who spout abuse seemingly entirely uncaring about the harm they're causing while claiming to care about other people's safety can absolutely 100% fudge right off.

I agree that intersex and trans people in elite sport is a conundrum. I don't have all the answers. But I do know that whatever is being said by biggots using that as a wedge issue to spread their hate about trans people are not the people worth listening to on that issue. And there's quite a lot of them around online. Again, definitely not aimed at anyone here.
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The trans issue is really difficult. When it comes to spreading hate, being abusive, and making threats, unfortunately trans activists are amongst some of the worst on the internet. They are of no help in allowing space for a sensible debate.
 
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