Official - Defoe

[Spursalot]

Defoe scored a classic Defoe goal. He'd be much more prolific in a two man attack. Is a shame in my opinion.


Though in the long run i think the 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or whatever the fudge people decide we play is far more viable.

 

[Fhtagn]

Because football is a sport and not a science

Defoe is what he is, trying to apply formulas and intricate tactics to a free flowing entity with infinite variables like a game of football is virtually meaningless. All you have done is to quote jargon, not explained anything, to anyone but the wholly ignorant. Football hasn't changed so significantly in the last 50 years beyond tactical tinkering, more often based on on the resources available to a given manager, rather than a sea change in idealism and the ebb and flow of the game has only improved because of diets, training regimes and the athleticism of players generally.

My complaint is the continual soul searching on this board for reasons to criticise Defoe for his (supposed) flaws and faults and the lad just keeps on scoring. Must tinkle you lot off beyond reason.

Its a bit like the bee thing. That science has proved that aerodynamcally a bee should be incapable of flight. Its just that someone forgot to tell the bee.

Keep making it up though, it makes me laugh.

Oh and the looking in depth thing, I think a lot have people have the telescope the wrong way round - and the scientist remark was a lie.

This isn't a personal issue. its a general issue and the thrust of my argument is that people try too hard to knock the guy, but the fact is that he can score goals if he stays fit, match fit and and in a successful team that provides him with chances. He can't do that from the subs bench or the infirmary which has a bigger impact on his "goals for" stats, than his flaws in comparison to the guy you are all searching for.

You can come up with scientific formulas for boiling an egg, but its still just sticking an egg in really hot water for the right length of time.

You silly goose.

Haven't people on here ever 'continuously soul searched for reasons to criticise (supposed) flaws and faults' of other players? Give me a fudging break. Some time ago people wanted to ship Bale back to Nottingham Forest for not being good enough, Lennon has never been able to cross a ball, Modric doesn't score enough goals, Ade doesn't score enough goals, Walker is no good defensively, Corluka was too slow, VdV is not in the final third enough, Huddlestone is too fat, Dawson hoofs too much, Ekotto does the 'drag back' too often and Friedel is too fudging old.

Defoe is justified to receive critic, just like every other player. I don't say that the critic he receives all the time is fair, but neither is all critic directed at other players.

 

[jts1882]

Do you seriously think that Defoes game is going to change dramatically?

He could do a Robbie Keane, as he gets slower, he could drop back and get in the midfields way, and fudge up the team plan.

So what are you saying, he's too old and/or stupid to change?

Seriously, I think its unlikely that he can change his game too much. It does seem, though, that for him to be effective in a lone striker set-up he has to adjust somewhat. I think dropping back and joining in with the link up play is more likely to end up as another Keane, as you suggest, but I still think he is capable of some adjustments. Perhaps he could move wide more often to try and find space or draw defenders and help create space for others in the centre. I don't know what the answer is, but surely it's worth discussion.

The alternative view that he is too old and one-dimensional to change seems more critical of him as a player than considering how he make adjustments to improve his game and help the team.

 

[Crawley]

just to check, does that include me having an opinion as well?

I was simply responding with my own views on an opinion expressed by elltrev, with my counterpoint. As you see, I said he's welcome to his opinion - but simply reserve the right to comment on it.

As he is more than welcome to engage me on mine, or condemn me for it as he sees fit.


or perhaps you would prefer that he stuck to your thought process, that he can put up an oinion or view, and that no-one is allowed to comment or provide an alternative view.

Tell me, as a mod do you prefer posters on this Spurs message board to continually carp and complain about the faults and deficits of Spurs players, or posters who support and stick up for them?

I dont see carping or complaining. I see reasoned discussion about what a player could do to improve his play.

And what has being a mod got to do with the conversation? Am I not allowed to pass comment because I have the ability to administrate the board?

 

[elltrev]

So what are you saying, he's too old and/or stupid to change?

Seriously, I think its unlikely that he can change his game too much. It does seem, though, that for him to be effective in a lone striker set-up he has to adjust somewhat. I think dropping back and joining in with the link up play is more likely to end up as another Keane, as you suggest, but I still think he is capable of some adjustments. Perhaps he could move wide more often to try and find space or draw defenders and help create space for others in the centre. I don't know what the answer is, but surely it's worth discussion.

The alternative view that he is too old and one-dimensional to change seems more critical of him as a player than considering how he make adjustments to improve his game and help the team.

I don't know; Scholes is an example of a player who's massively changed his style later on in his career, and to great effect . No-one's suggesting Defoe should transform into a Sheringham or Bergkamp-like player; I just think he and the team would benefit if he showed for the ball more. His strength, touch and passing are all good enough IMO to hold up the ball and bring others into play. It wouldn't exactly be a revolutionary change in style or role, and it would make him more effective as a lone striker, which is what our team currently requires it seems.

 

[WookieD]

Not sure where I gave the impression or ever suggested that Defoe can play as a lone striker.

But regardless of our playing staff Mick, we now play with one lone striker. So all of these conversations which you sledge as asinine are relevant as they talk about Defoe in our current system. I don't see anyone wishing for anything, merely stating how he doesn't currently fit.

There's a difference between going prowling for the ball like a pointy shouty troll and showing up in space. Defoe very rarely makes himself an outlet and just hangs around waiting for the game to come to him. Actually, a lot of our players fail to move into space and leave the player on the ball with limited options, which is going to kill us if we try to keep this high line of AVBs as it relies on possession and creating time to recuperate.

Sorry to say, but Defoe is not good enough to warrant setting up to get the best out of him, especially as that requires us to have two strikers on the pitch. His biggest ever goal return in the league was 18, three years ago in a 4-4-2 and he has never come close to that before or since, regardless of how many minutes he was getting. Why would you build a team around such a low scoring return?

 

[mick cooper]

I dont see carping or complaining. I see reasoned discussion about what a player could do to improve his play.

And what has being a mod got to do with the conversation? Am I not allowed to pass comment because I have the ability to administrate the board?

I asked, because I was interested in your reply, from a moderators perspective - what would you prefer?

I think we have both been posting on here for long enough to have seen multiple threads and dialogues where the lad is ripped to pieces on a continual basis.

 

[WookieD]

I think dropping back and joining in with the link up play is more likely to end up as another Keane, as you suggest, but I still think he is capable of some adjustments. Perhaps he could move wide more often to try and find space or draw defenders and help create space for others in the centre. I don't know what the answer is, but surely it's worth discussion.

I was going to say actually. Some of the best movement has been when he drifts wide, he assisted Bale at least once by doing that in the early part of last season. Just needs to think like that more often.

 

[mick cooper]

So what are you saying, he's too old and/or stupid to change?

Seriously, I think its unlikely that he can change his game too much. It does seem, though, that for him to be effective in a lone striker set-up he has to adjust somewhat. I think dropping back and joining in with the link up play is more likely to end up as another Keane, as you suggest, but I still think he is capable of some adjustments. Perhaps he could move wide more often to try and find space or draw defenders and help create space for others in the centre. I don't know what the answer is, but surely it's worth discussion.

The alternative view that he is too old and one-dimensional to change seems more critical of him as a player than considering how he make adjustments to improve his game and help the team.

Why do you think that the changes - as you or any other archair expert see them, will improve his game?

You might as well say - "well, if he simply played more like Gerd Muller/Pele/Maradonna it would improve his game dramatically"

He is what he is, what he does is what he does best.

If you give him a raft of tasks to perform that are outside of his comfort zone or skill set, he will just be a more diluted version of what he is.

I just don't see what is so difficult to grasp about it.

 

[mick cooper]

You silly goose.

Haven't people on here ever 'continuously soul searched for reasons to criticise (supposed) flaws and faults' of other players? Give me a fudging break. Some time ago people wanted to ship Bale back to Nottingham Forest for not being good enough, Lennon has never been able to cross a ball, Modric doesn't score enough goals, Ade doesn't score enough goals, Walker is no good defensively, Corluka was too slow, VdV is not in the final third enough, Huddlestone is too fat, Dawson hoofs too much, Ekotto does the 'drag back' too often and Friedel is too fudging old.

Defoe is justified to receive critic, just like every other player. I don't say that the critic he receives all the time is fair, but neither is all critic directed at other players.

I'd reply, but I have better things to do than be patronised but internet jerks

 

[mick cooper]

But regardless of our playing staff Mick, we now play with one lone striker. So all of these conversations which you sledge as asinine are relevant as they talk about Defoe in our current system. I don't see anyone wishing for anything, merely stating how he doesn't currently fit.

There's a difference between going prowling for the ball like a pointy shouty troll and showing up in space. Defoe very rarely makes himself an outlet and just hangs around waiting for the game to come to him. Actually, a lot of our players fail to move into space and leave the player on the ball with limited options, which is going to kill us if we try to keep this high line of AVBs as it relies on possession and creating time to recuperate.

Sorry to say, but Defoe is not good enough to warrant setting up to get the best out of him, especially as that requires us to have two strikers on the pitch. His biggest ever goal return in the league was 18, three years ago in a 4-4-2 and he has never come close to that before or since, regardless of how many minutes he was getting. Why would you build a team around such a low scoring return?

Nah you're right
lets get Kane in

 

[diego_maradona]

Why do you think that the changes - as you or any other archair expert see them, will improve his game?

You might as well say - "well, if he simply played more like Gerd Muller/Pele/Maradonna it would improve his game dramatically"

He is what he is, what he does is what he does best.

If you give him a raft of tasks to perform that are outside of his comfort zone or skill set, he will just be a more diluted version of what he is.

I just don't see what is so difficult to grasp about it.

Pfffft. What does an armchair fan like you know Mick.

Personally, I think he may be shunted out on the right or left wing and tried out there. Will be interesting to see how AVB handles the situation.

 

[WookieD]

Nah you're right
lets get Kane in

Sounds good, sign the lad up.

 

[joey55]

Pfffft. What does an armchair fan like you know Mick.

Personally, I think he may be shunted out on the right or left wing and tried out there. Will be interesting to see how AVB handles the situation.

He does seem to have worked out that most football based arguments are utter rubbish, which puts his knowledge ahead of 99% of football fans and pundits.

 

[Fhtagn]

I'd reply, but I have better things to do than be patronised but internet jerks

Yeah, me too.

 

[Spursalot]

He does seem to have worked out that most football based arguments are utter rubbish, which puts his knowledge ahead of 99% of football fans and pundits.

It's true.

But it's a football forum, what the fudge else are we going to talk about?

 

[joey55]

It's true.

But it's a football forum, what the fudge else are we going to talk about?

We could point of the ridiculousness of everything to do with the game. It's not as if we'd be short of topics!

 

[Crawley]

We could point of the ridiculousness of everything to do with the game. It's not as if we'd be short of topics!

I think you may be onto something here.......:-k

 

[mick cooper]

In response to the first bolded bit:

Which is what exactly what I tried to do. You replied with "oh right, you hop on the "mindless" bandwagon - and I have to justify myself? Righto." Not exactly conducive to engaging each other on our opinions if you don't feel the need to justify yours or actually comment on the content of what I said.

Arguably you have done now, and shown that our opinions aren't really any different; shame you can't get to that point without all the brick in between.

I think I got straight to the point. You didn't like it because it wasn't supportive or fawning over your opinion.

Defoe will not be the player you want him to be, in my view - and any attempt to make him play that way will be a waste of time.

Sadly, I think he will move elsewhere, to somewhere like Southampton or QPR, where they will play to his strengths, and he will probably score 20-25 goals a season. Which apparently isn't good enough for Spurs. We want Damiaio or Llorente or someone who will turn water into wine and heal the sick, whilst knocking in 30+ a season.

 

[jts1882]

Why do you think that the changes - as you or any other archair expert see them, will improve his game?

You might as well say - "well, if he simply played more like Gerd Muller/Pele/Maradonna it would improve his game dramatically"

He is what he is, what he does is what he does best.

If you give him a raft of tasks to perform that are outside of his comfort zone or skill set, he will just be a more diluted version of what he is.

I just don't see what is so difficult to grasp about it.

Ignoring the childish armchair expert jibe, for the simple reason I've never met anyone who is absolutely perfect and can't improve how they do things by making changes. Its called learning. Most people learn how to do their profession better as they get older, often adjusting to changes in their abilities. I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to Defoe.

I actually said I don't know the answers but that its an interesting topic for discussion. If I didn't find the discussion interesting I'd ignore it and leave it for those interested. Surely that concept is not so difficult to grasp either.