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No case for the defence

braineclipse said:
Who is just blaming the wide AMs???

To be better at dealing with others pressing us high up the pitch we need to be better on the ball. Replacing quick passers like Mason or Bentaleb with a more defensive minded player that's worse on the ball makes us less capable of dealing with teams pressing high up the pitch. Another way of course is to rely more on long balls forward, we should definitely develop that side of our game too.

Since Poch came in we've exclusively signed players that are good on the ball, including in defensive areas. We've shifted out some players that were poor/average on the ball. And younger players that are better on the ball have been selected, quite possibly at the expense of defensive solidity.

Disagree that Bentaleb is not a natural in the deeper role. He's young, he's inexperienced, but he seems a perfect fit for that role and given time I think he'll be absolutely outstanding there. Mason too is still inexperienced and learning and it's way too early to say he's not a natural for that role.
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Why would a more defensive minded midfielder be necessarily be worse on the ball? Carrick? Modric? Huddlestone?

The defensive signings since Poch has come in have not addressed any of the main issues and are certainly not all "good on the ball". Fazio is too slow both in thought and pace, Dyer too inexperienced with poor positional play, while Stambouli and Davies dont appear to be the requisite quality as a first team starters. Only Dyer may prove to be a first teamer in due course. All very disappointing signings IMO and none of them address the immediate key issues.

Regarding the deep lying two, from what I gather, Mason is naturally more attack minded (didn't he score lots of goals for our youth teams?) . Certainly I see him more comfortable in advanced positions and I don't recall him readily filling in behind our defence when the need arises. Consequently, not a natural foil for Bentaleb in those deep lying defensive midfield positions.
 
Pirate55 said:
Why would a more defensive minded midfielder be necessarily be worse on the ball? Carrick? Modric? Huddlestone?

The defensive signings since Poch has come in have not addressed any of the main issues and are certainly not all "good on the ball". Fazio is too slow both in thought and pace, Dyer too inexperienced with poor positional play, while Stambouli and Davies dont appear to be the requisite quality as a first team starters. Only Dyer may prove to be a first teamer in due course. All very disappointing signings IMO and none of them address the immediate key issues.

Regarding the deep lying two, from what I gather, Mason is naturally more attack minded (didn't he score lots of goals for our youth teams?) . Certainly I see him more comfortable in advanced positions and I don't recall him readily filling in behind our defence when the need arises. Consequently, not a natural foil for Bentaleb in those deep lying defensive midfield positions.
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Not necessarily. But the more skills you're expecting a player to have the rarer those players become. It's like expecting someone to be tall and quick, there will be fewer of them than players that are just tall or just quick. A player that has all those defensive qualities that's been discussed in this thread and is also very good on the ball would essentially be a complete deep/defensive midfielder. Those are rare, getting one at the level we need is always going to be difficult. You can say that you want someone whose excellent defensively and very good on the ball all you want, doesn't help us sign one. Right now the more defensive options in our squad are worse on the ball, so for the rest of the season at least a more defensive central midfield composition would come at an attacking cost. The players you listed are either world class (Modric), close to world class (Carrick) or has some severe limitations (Huddlestone).

You're really going to just flatly claim that those players are not all good on the ball without actually pointing out which of them you're talking about? I have no idea what the rest of your comments about our new signings have to do with what I said. We've already had that discussion I think, would you like to re-hash it?

Having one of the deep two in midfield as more attack minded is not a bad thing. Fabregas at Chelsea for example, clearly a more attack minded player. Modric too that you mentioned was and is clearly much better on the ball than defensively. Mason has weaknesses, but defensively he is comparable to Modric actually. Runs a lot, dedicated, fairly disciplined. Still has to get better at positioning and overall defensively for that central deeper role, as was the case with Modric at that age.
 
I didn't say it was easy. What I am particularly concerned about is the lack of quality we have bought.

Our youth players should be supplementing the few quality purchases we need to make to address fundamental weaknesses. This hasn't happened at all. We now have a situation where we rely too heavily on our youth (and therefore necessarily inexperienced players) as the backbone of our team - Walker, Rose, Mason, Benelab, Kane and the purchases (Eriksen apart) have all by and large been bit part players not of requisite quality.

What we desperately needed (and still need) are a few quality additions to actually add value to our first team and not more extremely limited squad type players of the ilk of Fazio, Davies, Stambouli and Dier, who may do a job as an occasional stand in but are not first team quality on a regular basis. We have our buying policy completely wrong imo.

To rely on both Mason and Bentelab in these key roles in front of the back four is just demanding too much from youth and inexperience. Both may grow into that role, but both would benefit from a quality player beside them at this stage of their development. One they can learn from.
 
Pirate55 said:
I didn't say it was easy. What I am particularly concerned about is the lack of quality we have bought.

Our youth players should be supplementing the few quality purchases we need to make to address fundamental weaknesses. This hasn't happened at all. We now have a situation where we rely too heavily on our youth (and therefore necessarily inexperienced players) as the backbone of our team - Walker, Rose, Mason, Benelab, Kane and the purchases (Eriksen apart) have all by and large been bit part players not of requisite quality.

What we desperately needed (and still need) are a few quality additions to actually add value to our first team and not more extremely limited squad type players of the ilk of Fazio, Davies, Stambouli and Dier, who may do a job as an occasional stand in but are not first team quality on a regular basis. We have our buying policy completely wrong imo.

To rely on both Mason and Bentelab in these key roles in front of the back four is just demanding too much from youth and inexperience. Both may grow into that role, but both would benefit from a quality player beside them at this stage of their development. One they can learn from.
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I agree that we've relied too much on our younger players. In part what's caused our inconsistency I think.

Hopefully come the summer we'll make a couple of excellent signings.

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.
 
Modric THFC said:
Its down to the keeper and midfield. Super Jan is a beautiful passer of the ball.
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When I said this as the start of the thread I was taking the tinkle. Yet here we are 3 days later discussing Ryan Mason.

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Raziel said:
Quick question, why does everyone assume a DM is going to be crud on the ball or can't pass?
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Who has actually said that?

I just assume that:

1. We won't be able to attract a DM that's very good defensively, very good on the ball, matured as a player and at the level we want. Or at least that the likelihood of that is extremely small. If we want a complete player like that at a top level (like we want) we'll have to develop him ourselves over a bit of time, like we're doing with Bentaleb.

2. That whoever we currently have in our squad that are stronger than Mason/Bentaleb defensively are also worse than Mason/Bentaleb on the ball.
 
braineclipse said:
What's your point ModricTHFC? Just posting a stat like that in isolation doesn't say much.
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The point is in Mason and Bentaleb we have two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league. Behind them there are huge fudge ups happening week after week yet Vertonghen can never be at fault.
He looks good on the ball. He's the kind of half arsed typical showy Tottenham player we are all used to. Its from a culture from the likes of Berbatov and Ginola showing up once every 3 games and doing something amazing. Talented, lazy, weak. Thats why we suffer year after year.
Now we have two kids working their arses off in midfield and they're to blame?
 
As far as I can see no one is blaming them at all, what we need is another player in there who is more aware of the opposing team runners.
 
parklane1 said:
As far as I can see no one is blaming them at all, what we need is another player in there who is more aware of the opposing team runners.
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On the whole i tend to agree with this; however, getting to ModricTHFC's point about Vertonghen, he has played behind decent DMs in the past in Sandro and Parker and has still looked a bit limp and lazy in his defending. I'm not sure a midfielder that did track runners etc would effect Vertonghen's (imo mediocre) defending much.
 
glorygloryeze said:
On the whole i tend to agree with this; however, getting to ModricTHFC's point about Vertonghen, he has played behind decent DMs in the past in Sandro and Parker and has still looked a bit limp and lazy in his defending. I'm not sure a midfielder that did track runners etc would effect Vertonghen's (imo mediocre) defending much.
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Well Jan is like Marmite on here, some think he is overated while others think he is the best CB we have, personally I am in the second camp so i would disagree.
 
braineclipse said:
Who has actually said that?

I just assume that:

1. We won't be able to attract a DM that's very good defensively, very good on the ball, matured as a player and at the level we want. Or at least that the likelihood of that is extremely small. If we want a complete player like that at a top level (like we want) we'll have to develop him ourselves over a bit of time, like we're doing with Bentaleb.

2. That whoever we currently have in our squad that are stronger than Mason/Bentaleb defensively are also worse than Mason/Bentaleb on the ball.
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2 I agree with .. 1 I don't ...
 
Modric THFC said:
The point is in Mason and Bentaleb we have two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league. Behind them there are huge fudge ups happening week after week yet Vertonghen can never be at fault.
He looks good on the ball. He's the kind of half arsed typical showy Tottenham player we are all used to. Its from a culture from the likes of Berbatov and Ginola showing up once every 3 games and doing something amazing. Talented, lazy, weak. Thats why we suffer year after year.
Now we have two kids working their arses off in midfield and they're to blame?
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Citation needed mate.

What you've posted so far is Ryan Mason being 7th in the league for tackles completed for midfielders. A stat topped by Lucas Leiva, Coquelin and Besic. Hardly in itself support for your claim.

I don't think Mason and Bentaleb are the primary problem by the way. But you can't just make a claim like that.

Edit: And on Vertonghen. You really think Pochettino has given the impression of someone that will make a half arsed, show pony, talented, but weak and lazy player a fixture in his team? We must have had completely different experiences this season.

Raziel said:
2 I agree with .. 1 I don't ...
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I ask again. "Who has actually said that?" Or was your question just a cheap straw man?

2 is the only one relevant for the rest of the season.

1, well i assume you're not basing that on our transfer history post Michael Carrick... Who would you say would be the right targets come the summer then?
 
braineclipse said:
Citation needed mate.

What you've posted so far is Ryan Mason being 7th in the league for tackles completed for midfielders. A stat topped by Lucas Leiva, Coquelin and Besic. Hardly in itself support for your claim.

I don't think Mason and Bentaleb are the primary problem by the way. But you can't just make a claim like that.

Edit: And on Vertonghen. You really think Pochettino has given the impression of someone that will make a half arsed, show pony, talented, but weak and lazy player a fixture in his team? We must have had completely different experiences this season.
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As I said above "in Mason and Bentaleb we have two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league"
Only 3 other central midfielders have made more tackles total than Mason this season. And look at Bentalebs' Interception stats.
 
Modric THFC said:
As I said above "in Mason and Bentaleb we have two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league"
Only 3 other central midfielders have made more tackles total than Mason this season. And look at Bentalebs' Interception stats.
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All I'm asking for is some more information and some context and reasoning in addition to stats...

You're right. Bentaleb does really well on the interception stat, 8th of CM and DM classified players, based on number per 90 played excluding players with fewer than 5 matches played. Mason on the other hand is 57th. Capoue is 5th.

Total tackles won Mason is 9th (same classification as above), Capoue 26th, Bentaleb 55th.

To me that doesn't add up to the two of them being "two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league". Even if for the sake of argument I accept that the only relevant defensive stats for deep midfielders are total tackles and interceptions. Would seem that even Capoue has better stats than both of them. In short I don't think the numbers you've presented in isolation so far are particularly informative. Actually they seem cherry picked based on confirmation bias more than anything. Particularly when you continue to present stats like those with no further reasoning, no explanation, no comparisons, no context...
 
With how good a tackler Mason is -- and the fact he is a forward thinking player by nature -- I wonder if it's a good idea to use him in the way that Dembele was used in the recent past and play him as the number 10/advanced central midfielder (move Eriksen to the left). It might improve our pressing and mean we win the ball back higher up the pitch more often.

Next season, maybe?

------------someone---bentaleb
---pritchard------mason------eriksen

Obviously, our defenders still have to improve regardless.
 
braineclipse said:
All I'm asking for is some more information and some context and reasoning in addition to stats...

You're right. Bentaleb does really well on the interception stat, 8th of CM and DM classified players, based on number per 90 played excluding players with fewer than 5 matches played. Mason on the other hand is 57th. Capoue is 5th.

Total tackles won Mason is 9th (same classification as above), Capoue 26th, Bentaleb 55th.

To me that doesn't add up to the two of them being "two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league". Even if for the sake of argument I accept that the only relevant defensive stats for deep midfielders are total tackles and interceptions. Would seem that even Capoue has better stats than both of them. In short I don't think the numbers you've presented in isolation so far are particularly informative. Actually they seem cherry picked based on confirmation bias more than anything. Particularly when you continue to present stats like those with no further reasoning, no explanation, no comparisons, no context...
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We're discussing Mason and Bentaleb in a No case for the defence thread. Its ridiculous.
Our boys are up there with the best in the league. Compare their stats to a City team midfielders that concede half the goals we do.
 
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