No case for the defence

[Jimmy-g]

If there is blame then it must be on Pochettino because we are no nearer to sorting this out than we were months ago, I personal think that he is not getting the best out of the older supposedly more experienced players we have, I cannot fathom it out to the point of giving up, the two players he brought in to help solve the problem Stambouli and Fazio cannot even get a game.

 

[Raziel]

I ask again. "Who has actually said that?" Or was your question just a cheap straw man?

2 is the only one relevant for the rest of the season.

1, well i assume you're not basing that on our transfer history post Michael Carrick... Who would you say would be the right targets come the summer then?

It's based on the current view by a few folks (not bothered to go dig names up) on the board re we shouldn't play a DM (I think you share that view), despite the fact that from a system perspective some of the best recent Spurs teams have had a DM, i.e. with Palacios -> Parker -> Sandro. When brought up, the dismissal is somehow a pure DM can't play football, won't fit in Poch's system, etc, etc.

Its already been pointed out that with a DM we have lost a game (not sure what that proves), Manure has lost a few with Carrick and better players around him. It's about consistent performances from a defensive perspective (At this point I think we are conceding 2 goals a game for more than 10 games now).

We haven't replaced Carrick but my assumption is our DM & Eriksen setup would look more like a Sandro/Parker & Modric. I think it can work, and I think you can find a player that can do the role, and fit Poch's system. I don't pull out names of players I've never seen play outside of a game or two, so not good at the suggestions.

Its not a dig against Mason/Bentaleb, its a dig against the system that is slightly overbalanced with Mason/Bentaleb being more attacking focused, +two overcommitted FBs, +an unsettled/out of form CB pairing allowing too many goals. We either to your earlier point figure out how to press to the point where we don't let them get the time to make chances, or get at least one more defensively focused midfielder.

Even though Stambouli & Dembele are not as good as Mason/Bentaleb, I think Poch needs to figure out how to leverage them better, because the 2-1s & 4-3s can easily go the other way and 5th-7th is likely to be just a few points.

 

[Pirate55]

I agree that we've relied too much on our younger players. In part what's caused our inconsistency I think.

Hopefully come the summer we'll make a couple of excellent signings.

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

You said that all our recent signings were "good on the ball". I refute that entirely and further went on to suggest that the four players we have signed have not even begun to address our obvious defensive deficiencies. That is all. Given our track record of recent "average at best" signings, I do not wholeheartedly share your confidence that we will make a couple of excellent signings in the summer. As I said, and I think we agree, we need to sign quality rather than quantity. Fewer better players rather that many average players.We have too many average players already.

 

[braineclipse]

It's based on the current view by a few folks (not bothered to go dig names up) on the board re we shouldn't play a DM (I think you share that view), despite the fact that from a system perspective some of the best recent Spurs teams have had a DM, i.e. with Palacios -> Parker -> Sandro. When brought up, the dismissal is somehow a pure DM can't play football, won't fit in Poch's system, etc, etc.

Its already been pointed out that with a DM we have lost a game (not sure what that proves), Manure has lost a few with Carrick and better players around him. It's about consistent performances from a defensive perspective (At this point I think we are conceding 2 goals a game for more than 10 games now).

We haven't replaced Carrick but my assumption is our DM & Eriksen setup would look more like a Sandro/Parker & Modric. I think it can work, and I think you can find a player that can do the role, and fit Poch's system. I don't pull out names of players I've never seen play outside of a game or two, so not good at the suggestions.

Its not a dig against Mason/Bentaleb, its a dig against the system that is slightly overbalanced with Mason/Bentaleb being more attacking focused, +two overcommitted FBs, +an unsettled/out of form CB pairing allowing too many goals. We either to your earlier point figure out how to press to the point where we don't let them get the time to make chances, or get at least one more defensively focused midfielder.

Even though Stambouli & Dembele are not as good as Mason/Bentaleb, I think Poch needs to figure out how to leverage them better, because the 2-1s & 4-3s can easily go the other way and 5th-7th is likely to be just a few points.

I would love a Carrick, but I think Bentaleb can develop into a player at a similar level with similar qualities and some strengths in areas where Carrick falls short. I would absolutely hate to see his development stunted because some DM with less potential is brought in.

Ok. We'll just sign a DM that's excellent on the ball, very good defensively and ahead of Bentaleb in his development... No problems.

I don't think there's something wrong with the system. It's just that we're inconsistent because of a lack of experience, lack of quality competition for places and still adapting to the system.

You said that all our recent signings were "good on the ball". I refute that entirely and further went on to suggest that the four players we have signed have not even begun to address our obvious defensive deficiencies. That is all. Given our track record of recent "average at best" signings, I do not wholeheartedly share your confidence that we will make a couple of excellent signings in the summer. As I said, and I think we agree, we need to sign quality rather than quantity. Fewer better players rather that many average players.We have too many average players already.

Refute? You haven't even named which of those players you think are good on the ball and which aren't... Refute?

I wrote "hopefully" and from that you read that I'm confident that we'll make a couple of excellent signing? I give up...

 

[Coys300]

The point is in Mason and Bentaleb we have two of the central midfielders with best defensive stats in the premier league. Behind them there are huge fudge ups happening week after week yet Vertonghen can never be at fault.
He looks good on the ball. He's the kind of half arsed typical showy Tottenham player we are all used to. Its from a culture from the likes of Berbatov and Ginola showing up once every 3 games and doing something amazing. Talented, lazy, weak. Thats why we suffer year after year.
Now we have two kids working their arses off in midfield and they're to blame?

They havs 't exactly covered themselves in glory though, have they? I know your personal dislike of Vertonghen prevents you from looking at matches objectively, but it's hardly just Vertonghen alone making the mistakes here. Both Nabil and Ryan have been equally guilty of pretty big mistakes that resulted in goals. They have been as much a problem as Vertonghen has.

 

[Coys300]

With how good a tackler Mason is -- and the fact he is a forward thinking player by nature -- I wonder if it's a good idea to use him in the way that Dembele was used in the recent past and play him as the number 10/advanced central midfielder (move Eriksen to the left). It might improve our pressing and mean we win the ball back higher up the pitch more often.

Next season, maybe?

------------someone---bentaleb
---pritchard------mason------eriksen

Obviously, our defenders still have to improve regardless.

Mason isn't good enough technically to play as a number 10 imo. For all his work-effort he lacks a bit of vision imo.

 

[Modric THFC]

We don't expect our defenders to be able to defend. Look at the reaction Kompany has got when he's made fudge ups this season. People expect better. He ended to bring dropped.

No one is blaming the two in front of him.

At Tottenham people just accept that our defence is this precious tissue paper that needs protecting. It's gotten ridiculous. We can't even have a discussion about changing it. Instead people discuss the protection.

 

[braineclipse]

We don't expect our defenders to be able to defend. Look at the reaction Kompany has got when he's made fudge ups this season. People expect better. He ended to bring dropped.

No one is blaming the two in front of him.

At Tottenham people just accept that our defence is this precious tissue paper that needs protecting. It's gotten ridiculous. We can't even have a discussion about changing it. Instead people discuss the protection.

Defending as a unit is not some novel concept only relevant at Spurs. There's a huge difference between what are seen as individual mistakes by defenders and when defenders are not given enough protection.

The protection for the back for is a relevant problem for City and other big clubs. If it isn't then Pellegrini is incompetent. Do you remember all the fuss last season after Chelsea got knocked out of the CL? Do you remember what Mourinho talked about? His one true world class attacking player not helping out enough defensively...

 

[parklane1]

Ok. We'll just sign a DM that's excellent on the ball, very good defensively and ahead of Bentaleb in his development... No problems.

..

As you said earlier they do not grow on trees, however that should not stop us from trying to find one that could do a better job then the players we have now. The other alternative is to bury our head in the sand and pretend we do not have a problem there.

 

[parklane1]

We don't expect our defenders to be able to defend. Look at the reaction Kompany has got when he's made fudge ups this season. People expect better. He ended to bring dropped.

No one is blaming the two in front of him.

At Tottenham people just accept that our defence is this precious tissue paper that needs protecting. It's gotten ridiculous. We can't even have a discussion about changing it. Instead people discuss the protection.

have you never heard the expression " we defend as a team" you seem to be hell bent on blaming the defence for all our woes.

 

[Modric THFC]

have you never heard the expression " we defend as a team" you seem to be hell bent on blaming the defence for all our woes.

If we stuck our midfield in the Emirates Marketing Project or the Southampton team we wouldnt be conceding 45 goals in 30 games.

 

[parklane1]

If we stuck our midfield in the Emirates Marketing Project or the Southampton team we wouldnt be conceding 45 goals in 30 games.

If you stuck our back four behind the City or Southampton midfield we would not be conceding 45 goals in 30 games, two can play that stupid game.

 

[braineclipse]

As you said earlier they do not grow on trees, however that should not stop us from trying to find one that could do a better job then the players we have now. The other alternative is to bury our head in the sand and pretend we do not have a problem there.

I'm for finding upgrades in any position. If Mitchell and Baldini can identify a gettable goalkeeper better than Lloris I say get him in.

Realistically though, we've signed one "defensive midfielder" in as long as I can remember that was actually at that level on the ball and defensively, that was Michael Carrick. Arguably Huddlestone could have replaced him if not for his extensive injury problems, but Hudd took years of development with us before he reached that level.

I think it's much more likely that we can develop Bentaleb into that player than that we will find that player in the transfer market come the summer. Possible exception if it turns out Schneiderlin is gettable, he knows the system and the league and should be able to adjust quickly.

Perhaps we can find an upgrade on Mason a bit easier, and I'm not convinced Mason has the potential Bentaleb has. Either way we do need more options for that role so we should look to bring in a new player there unless one of the youngsters prove themselves ready. But I wouldn't want that player to be a "defensive midfielder".

I'm not burying my head in the sand. I'm just not blaming those two in central midfield to the extent you are. I'm accepting that developing quality players will take some time and that there will be some inconsistency. Meanwhile there are other ways we can become more defensively solid, as we've seen several times this season. Making a couple of changes to our front 4 for example.

 

[parklane1]

I'm for finding upgrades in any position. If Mitchell and Baldini can identify a gettable goalkeeper better than Lloris I say get him in.

Realistically though, we've signed one "defensive midfielder" in as long as I can remember that was actually at that level on the ball and defensively, that was Michael Carrick. Arguably Huddlestone could have replaced him if not for his extensive injury problems, but Hudd took years of development with us before he reached that level.

I think it's much more likely that we can develop Bentaleb into that player than that we will find that player in the transfer market come the summer. Possible exception if it turns out Schneiderlin is gettable, he knows the system and the league and should be able to adjust quickly.

Perhaps we can find an upgrade on Mason a bit easier, and I'm not convinced Mason has the potential Bentaleb has. Either way we do need more options for that role so we should look to bring in a new player there unless one of the youngsters prove themselves ready. But I wouldn't want that player to be a "defensive midfielder".

I'm not burying my head in the sand. I'm just not blaming those two in central midfield to the extent you are. I'm accepting that developing quality players will take some time and that there will be some inconsistency. Meanwhile there are other ways we can become more defensively solid, as we've seen several times this season. Making a couple of changes to our front 4 for example.

I can agree with most of that, however I am not blaming either Bentaleb or Mason for our problems. But its obvious they need a player alongside them that can be more aware ( then either of them are) to runners from deep and those opposing players who get in behind them and the back four.

 

[braineclipse]

I can agree with most of that, however I am not blaming either Bentaleb or Mason for our problems. But its obvious they need a player alongside them that can be more aware ( then either of them are) to runners from deep and those opposing players who get in behind them and the back four.

Or they need a bit more experience coupled with harder working and more disciplined players ahead of them and slightly fewer personal errors behind them.

 

[parklane1]

Or they need a bit more experience coupled with harder working and more disciplined players ahead of them and slightly fewer personal errors behind them.

We are going round in circles again.

 

[sc25]

I think it's much more likely that we can develop Bentaleb into that player than that we will find that player in the transfer market come the summer. Possible exception if it turns out Schneiderlin is gettable, he knows the system and the league and should be able to adjust quickly.

Possible exception? There is likely more than one. I'd imagine your knowledge of the players out there in any transfer market(s) in reality is quite limited (as is mine). Schneiderlin himself may not even be on our radar anymore (if indeed he ever really was...fans buying in to media hype, right?). As yet, I'm unsure of what Bentaleb will develop in to, here or otherwise, but I'm more sure that we have our scouts out there.

 

[braineclipse]

Possible exception? There is likely more than one. I'd imagine your knowledge of the players out there in any transfer market(s) in reality is quite limited (as is mine). Schneiderlin himself may not even be on our radar anymore (if indeed he ever really was...fans buying in to media hype, right?). As yet, I'm unsure of what Bentaleb will develop in to, here or otherwise, but I'm more sure that we have our scouts out there.

Yes. But I'm also of the belief that the kind of complete defensive midfielder we're talking about here are very difficult to find and sign. That's why instead of just relying on my own limited knowledge of players I talked about our history with buying players like that.

Take it one step further and look at some teams around us. Emirates Marketing Project sold De Jong because he wasn't good enough on the ball for their liking. Since then they've spent £60m+ on Javi Garcia, Fernandinho and Ferndando and are seemingly no closer to finding the right player. Man United still rely very heavily on Carrick, they essentially have no adequate replacement. Chelsea ended up spending a huge amount to bring Matic back to the club. Thinking back to the World Cup I think there was a very real shortage of that kind of player.

Looking at our transfer history, looking at other clubs, I find that I can at best somewhat naively hope that we'll be able to sign a player like that. And if it's someone from abroad he'll likely need time to adjust to the PL, time to adjust to Pochettino... I just think it's much more likely that we'll develop Bentaleb into the player we need than that we'll all of a sudden sign the right player for that role come the summer. I wouldn't mind being wrong at all, just my guesstimate. If I'm right I will continue to be patient as we develop a (imo) world class talent into what will hopefully be a quality player.

 

[sc25]

Yep I hear ya, but I'm hoping for better than status quo. With the new manager/ organization/structure/the bloke from Soton, etc, at the club, hopefully there's a limit as to the relevence of our transfer history, and past results won't necessarily be confined or indicative of the future. Furthermore, in the past there was much discussion in here as to how it wasn't/shouldn't be the case that our club's focus shouldn't be reliant on trying to get one player (Schneiderlin) but rather that we should identify other options (players) out there that could come in and fit the system too, if we didn't get Schneiderlin. (I believe you were a prominent exponent of such thinking?)

 

[90291Spur]

We are going round in circles again.

Like Scotty Parker in his prime.