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Next Spurs manager mega-thread

who would it be?

  • Jose Mourinho

    Votes: 110 48.0%
  • Guus Hiddink

    Votes: 29 12.7%
  • Louis Van Gaal

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • David Moyes

    Votes: 20 8.7%
  • Brendan Rodgers

    Votes: 40 17.5%
  • Alan Pardew

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Tim Owl Face Sherwood

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Fabio Capello

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Seb Bassong

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Sandra Redknapp

    Votes: 15 6.6%

  • Total voters
    229
Its not, it was abundantly clear after just a handful of games - and there was plenty of comment here alone to that effect.

Change needed to happen, but it didnt need to be instant - and AVB made some bad decisions in trying to force it so early on (IMO).

Thats not to say he wasnt onto a hiding to nothing all the same, but he certainly wasnt whiter than white during his tenure.

He was doing welle enough in his first few games though wasn't he?

I just think the players weren't suited to it, and they realised it, and decided to rise up. He had an entire pre-season, so it wasn't like he came to the club in February and didn't want to risk upsetting anyone. He had the summer to implement his system. He managed to turn around the fortunes of Academica fairly quickly, only had one season at Porto where his methods clearly worked because of the success he had, and had a similar amount of time at Chelsea.

I just don't think it was something that needed to be done any slower. Otherwise why bring him in at all? Why delay in implementing the system that you think will get you eventual success? If Academica players can take to it, and Porto players can take to it, why can't Chelsea's?

They just didn't want to. Terry was probably scared that he would be made a fool out of because of the high line and didn't like it, but it's not like the rest of the squad were incapable of playing a different way. They just didn't give it a chance.
 
Guardiola has had one full manager role, at a club where he was brought up, which is unique in its structure, where he had the tools to play his prefered way.

Moving anywhere else, I err on the side of caution myself.

No matter how intelligent he is, he will face decisions, issues, and obstacles he will never have encountered before.

All with the burden of what he achieved with Barca hanging over his head.

I'm very much in this camp. He could well prove me wrong, but Barca's tactics are bred from a young age into the players. Guardiola was a part of that system so tactically knew how to use it to the best effect. Not convinced he'll be able to achieve the same success with players that aren't from that system
 
If the players realised it, shouldnt the manager have?

I dont doubt his methods can and do work, but its not universal is it?

He should have appreciated he didnt have the players to employ the high defensive line his system relies upon, and should have adjusted to get results. Of course, buying approriate players later on would allow him to come back to it.

Carrying on regardless was foolhardy at best, and once players lose confidence at the back there will of course be issues.

I dont know Porto well enough to say with certainty, but perhaps they already employed a system similar to AVBs? Or they had the players able to adapt and thrive in his system? Hence it took off very well...

With us? Perhaps we are more naturally inclined to take on his system, and he will again look like a genius. My fear is that if we arent, and if things struggle, he wont adapt to make the best of his resources - rather will carry on bloody minded as he did at Chelsea.
 
If the players realised it, shouldnt the manager have?

I dont doubt his methods can and do work, but its not universal is it?

He should have appreciated he didnt have the players to employ the high defensive line his system relies upon, and should have adjusted to get results. Of course, buying approriate players later on would allow him to come back to it.

Carrying on regardless was foolhardy at best, and once players lose confidence at the back there will of course be issues.

I dont know Porto well enough to say with certainty, but perhaps they already employed a system similar to AVBs? Or they had the players able to adapt and thrive in his system? Hence it took off very well...

With us? Perhaps we are more naturally inclined to take on his system, and he will again look like a genius. My fear is that if we arent, and if things struggle, he wont adapt to make the best of his resources - rather will carry on bloody minded as he did at Chelsea.

The thing is, we've played a high defensive line with Dawson plenty of times, lots during the Jol years for sure and plenty of times under Harry. If he can do it, Terry can. I firmly believe they just didn't want to give him a chance.
 
It must be a hell of a effort to climb down from that high horse you sit on. :lol:

it might be a high horse to you, but having an IQ above 40 is hardly aspirations of grandeur to me. If you think that I think too much of myself because of that, then you know you won't be getting in that forum.
 
The thing is, we've played a high defensive line with Dawson plenty of times, lots during the Jol years for sure and plenty of times under Harry. If he can do it, Terry can. I firmly believe they just didn't want to give him a chance.

Maybe so, but would you accept he isnt blameless in how it went at Chelsea? That he made errors of his own?

Thats the only point Im making, IMO he contributed to his own downfall - which leaves a question mark as to how well he could perform at another Premiership club.

Im not saying he wouldnt, just that there is a "Hmmm, maybe..." element to him now in my eyes.
 
Bring in Rodgers and get rid of the dead wood and ego's and start fresh. Young team and look forward to the new stadium and cracking on from there.
 
Those facilities will be a massive boost to a manager who focuses heavily on training ground work.

They look sensational, and can only have a positive effect on the team in the right hands.
 
Maybe so, but would you accept he isnt blameless in how it went at Chelsea? That he made errors of his own?

Thats the only point Im making, IMO he contributed to his own downfall - which leaves a question mark as to how well he could perform at another Premiership club.

Im not saying he wouldnt, just that there is a "Hmmm, maybe..." element to him now in my eyes.

Maybe, but I just don't tend to think of things like that, that's all.

Like with our current situation. We could say that Harry's failure to rotate has made us poor and that's a mistake. But maybe rotating earlier in the season would mean playing poorer quality players and maybe we wouldn't have had that great run, so maybe we'd still be in 5th anyway. Or the January transfer window, maybe the mistake was not spending any money but maybe the money simply wasn't there or maybe it was but if we spent it it may put us in a less sturdy financial position. It's like politics or economics, you can't please everyone or want to acheive everything and there isn't one perfect way. Any decision taken means another decision can't be taken, so there are negative occurences that could be classed as 'mistakes' for any action taken.

With AVB, maybe he could have just played Mourinho's system and completely placated to the players. Maybe he would have got better results earlier in the season because of it. But maybe Roman would have said 'I paid 15 million pound to get you out of Porto so you could change the style of football this club plays and set us up for the future, if I wanted you to just play the way the current players want I may as well have not signed you at all' and he could have been out of a job. Or maybe AVB's authority would have been eroded and when he did eventually try to implement the system, the players just kick up a fuss again. At some point, it had to be done.

So it's a lot to do with circumstances, but also because it's nobodies 'fault', it's just decisions that were taken that would have positive or negative consequences. If Roman was willing to take a year out of the CL, move out the cancers in his dressing room and say that AVB is going to get the time to implement exactly what he wants to do, then he wouldn't perhaps be viewed as a flop. But at the end of the day all that happened was that two contrasting forces came up against one another. AVB and his brief to change, versus the experienced players and their desire to see nothing change. In the end the players won because they are more powerful in the club, but it doesn't mean AVB was wrong to do what he did or that it could have really happened another way. It could have, but then he might have got sacked anyway for not doing what he was asked to do. It looks like the right decision for Chelsea because of what has happened since, but at the end of the day they could end the season with nothing, or with just an FA Cup to show for their season, and no CL football next year. And they'll have a manager who's survival strategy is to let players shout the tactics from the bench while he sits there and takes it, so again there's no long term strategy in place, they will have an ageing squad, and eventually it will catch up with them because they will run out of time for short term fixes because everyone else has improved and got their strategy's in place.

AVB in! He was apparently second favourite with the bookies to go to Barca - I'm glad they chose Tito and hope he can come here. :p
 
Im not saying Id be disappointed with him at all, just that I would think he needs to show what he can do before being entirely convinced. There is the slight concern that he could come in, get off to a bad start (IE, system not working at all) and not adapt to rectify the situation. Thats because of what I saw at Chelsea.

Look at his brief there, and think - how would you have tackled it?

Personally, I would have used the existing established players in a system similar to what they were used to - but leaning toward my preference to begin. Im a new manager, I need results. This would also have afforded my new buys time to acclimatise and get involved. As the season progressed, as my players had more and more time under my training regime I would see if I can move toward my favoured style. Hopefully softening the transition. If its clear its not working because, for example, my defence turns like tug boats, I have January to identify solutions to these issues before committing to them.

A gradual process allows existing players the chance to adapt, new players the chance to fit in and me the chance to accrue points and power along the way. By next summer I have hopefully come around to using my system, I have the choice of keeping players who have adapted and shifting those who havent. I have established the blue print of the team and can build upon it from here...

Or I can go in and on day one demand absolute change, then not shift my demands at all even in the face of the system not working and then player revolt...
 
Im not saying Id be disappointed with him at all, just that I would think he needs to show what he can do before being entirely convinced. There is the slight concern that he could come in, get off to a bad start (IE, system not working at all) and not adapt to rectify the situation. Thats because of what I saw at Chelsea.

Look at his brief there, and think - how would you have tackled it?

Personally, I would have used the existing established players in a system similar to what they were used to - but leaning toward my preference to begin. Im a new manager, I need results. This would also have afforded my new buys time to acclimatise and get involved. As the season progressed, as my players had more and more time under my training regime I would see if I can move toward my favoured style. Hopefully softening the transition. If its clear its not working because, for example, my defence turns like tug boats, I have January to identify solutions to these issues before committing to them.

A gradual process allows existing players the chance to adapt, new players the chance to fit in and me the chance to accrue points and power along the way. By next summer I have hopefully come around to using my system, I have the choice of keeping players who have adapted and shifting those who havent. I have established the blue print of the team and can build upon it from here...

Or I can go in and on day one demand absolute change, then not shift my demands at all even in the face of the system not working and then player revolt...

I can honestly say I would have probably gone about it the exact same way. That's for a number of different reasons.

Firstly, it didn't take over a season to see who could play the system at Academica and Porto. It seems like they just decided to get on and do it. Maybe at Porto he had more opportunity to sign the players he needed, I'm not too sure. However at Academica he took over mid-season when they were bottom of the table, immediately implemented new ideas and got them safely to mid-table as well as to a cup semi-final. And there especially I can't imagine all his defenders were particularly pacey, it's just that they bought into the ideas.

Secondly, I don't believe you can go halfway when trying to implement a system. I couldn't imagine Brendan Rodgers going into Stoke, or Pulis to Swansea, and saying 'try and keep the ball if you can, but lump it when you can too' because it just doesn't work. I feel that when we lost Carrick and replaced him with Zokora, we had a similar thing with Commoli's vision mixing with Jol, and it wasn't good. Commoli obviously thought Zokora was a good defensive midfielder and would be a satisfactory replacement, and I think Jol obviously would have liked someone more Carrick-esque. So it was an uncomfortable mesh of styles, and it just didn't work. I think Jol did change it later in the season, however subtly, because we did start getting results. But then the next pre-season, again with no Carrick replacement, I would bet he tried to implement his preferred style again and we struggled again. I don't think you can go half-way with a system, and Zokora clearly wasn't capable of making the Carrick role his own. I have a feeling you might say that Jol changed it, which proves your point, but I feel there's a difference between changing because someone's not capable, and what was going on at Chelsea. Zokora simply couldn't switch play, he couldn't pass incisively under pressure, he couldn't do anything like Carrick did - and Jol's system relied on having at least one player like that in the side. But we are talking about capability, and are we really saying that Academica players were capable of taking some of these ideas on board and Chelsea's are not? If the high-line is the problem, we already have the knowledge that Dawson can play a high-line and perform well with it, so why couldn't Terry? If the fact that AVB wanted to keep more possession as opposed to going direct to Drogba is the problem, then that's pathetic. That's Chelsea players refusing to do what is asked, because they are clearly capable, and just didn't want to hear it.

Thirdly, AVB had tried to change and adapt. He mentioned on different occasions that he has had to alter his preference for a 'rotating' (I think that was the word, can't remember the exact quote) holding midfielder because the speed of transition in this league was too quick for it to work. That's a belief that he quite happily discarded because he could see it wouldn't work here. If he was willing to do that, I'm quite sure he would change other beliefs too if he knew they wouldn't work, but I'd have to then conclude that he didn't change certain things because he knew it wasn't because it wasn't suitable for the league or for the team, but because the players had refused to take it on board. In that interview with the Portuguese student who became his scout, you can tell he has a good in-depth knowledge of the different styles of football in each country, so I would trust that knows what works and what doesn't from that.

Fourthly, Chelsea players are ****s who are way to sure of themselves and have too much power. Ashley Cole apparently said to a manager that had won a treble in his first season and was highly regarded as one of the brightest young coaches in world football before coming to Chelsea that 'we will never win anything with your tactics'. What an absolute fool. Players like Terry are quick to decide upon having a team meeting and 'rallying the troops' when he thinks something isn't working, he's tried it with England because he obviously does it at Chelsea. After a couple of bad results he obviously decided it was time to ask for changes, but they had never really given AVB a chance. There was also reports of them taking the tinkle out of AVB when turning up for training late. No way should be try and placate those utter cretins. They weren't letting him do his job. It became a power struggle that he was never going to win rather than being a case of bad management IMO.

He had to move out all too powerful veterans, implement a new style of football (we don't know how quickly Roman asked for this) and all the while continue to achieve success without skipping a beat. Impossible task IMO. He did the best he could but the players let him down. I know you don't neccesarily need to be convinced of his merits but it's fun to stick up for him.
 
I dont know Academia or Porto well enough to really comment, but it could be as simple as them having players suited to his systems needs. Just look at the difference in our team between 442 and the preferred (this season) 4231/451/433 (however you see it!). Same players, huge difference in success rate.

Obviously in saying to lean toward the preferred system it has to be in a complimentary way, and need not be a half baked bastardisation. Start to utilise width more, then start to play at a slightly different pace, introduce elements as you can rather than forcing it...

Thirdly.... I hadnt seen that quote, its good to read

Fourthly... Cant argue with the player assessment, but its a managers job to deal with these things. If he had played to their egos a bit more he may have kept them onside well enough to get his ideas accross. Its a managers job to manipulate, isnt it?

And I hope you dont think Im anti, or indeed trying to hammer AVB. I like him and see a lot of merit in him, its just there are a few niggles for me.

Id be pleased if he came in, a year ago he would have been an incredibly exciting appointmnet - now? IF he has learnt from errors made probably an even better one...
 
Would love Mourinho to really give himself a challenge and take us on to another level. With him in charge you're virtually guaranteed a top 4 finish if not challenging for the title itself.
Other than him, Hiddink but Martinez is starting to grown on me both due to the style of play he tries to integrate into his sides and also the way he comes across as a person too.
 
it might be a high horse to you, but having an IQ above 40 is hardly aspirations of grandeur to me. If you think that I think too much of myself because of that, then you know you won't be getting in that forum.

I am actually both thank you, but its a bit patronising to suggest that anyone under 40 can not debate without getting hysterical.
 
I call people out on this "give a young manager a chance" route

If any of you were Daniel Levy, and you were going to make a decision that potentially (in next 3 years) impacts about 200M+ in club funds, would you really be so gung ho and eager to appoint a Rodgers/Martinez manager?

Neither of these guys have ever (to my knowledge)

- Managed a top half PL team (far less CL challenger)
- Won a trophy
- Managed a team in European competition
- Managed players of quality/wages/ego of VDV/Ade/Modric/Bale
- Had the expectation pressure that Tottenham brings

Exactly what do they bring to the table? that they seem like nice guys and try to play decent football at a lower level club?

Whatever you might want to say about AVB, he ticks a hell of a lot more of those boxes ...
 
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