Next Spurs manager mega-thread

[DubaiSpur]

To clear up any possible confusion, I wasn't referring to our esteemed Martin Jol up there, but rather his amusingly named brother.

 

[ArcspacE]

So, the way I see it, if a manager's

a)tactically and motivationally sound, unlike Schteve,
b)willing to learn the language, unlike Juande, and
c)able to cope with the pressure of a big job, unlike Woy,

Rogers and Aidken automatically fail on point C and I certianly don't want us to be the club where they fail in a 'pressurised' job.

They were exactly where Roy was prior to his move and subsequent exposure at a 'high-pressure' job

 

[DubaiSpur]

Rogers and Aidken automatically fail on point C and I certianly don't want us to be the club where they fail in a 'pressurised' job.

They were exactly where Roy was prior to his move and subsequnt exposure at a high-pressure job

Agreed on the Rodgers point. That's one of the reasons I'm not totally convinced. Adkins, however, seems somewhat different. He moved from S****horpe, a club where he had over-achieved and enjoyed the adulation of both the fans and the board, to move to Southampton, the principal football club in a largely one-club city, where instant pressure was placed on him to gain promotion, which he did in considerable style. The balance of probability says he won't be intimidated by the Spurs job.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Woy didnt 'fail'. He wasnt accepted.

His failure has been almost entirely replicated by Dalgish and yet he is a hero...

 

[1882]

...there is that! Mind you KK has won them a trophy... that should buy him another 25 years of Hero status!

 

[ArcspacE]

Woy didnt 'fail'. He wasnt accepted.

His failure has been almost entirely replicated by Dalgish and yet he is a hero...

Of course he failed - his results were unacceptable in relation to their season objectives - Top 4 finish, cup runs, etc. Of course the fans needed little to turn against him and the rest is history. The same wat AVB failed with the media, etc. What could have been is another story

The fact Kenny has go on to largerly replicate that by no means exonerrates Roy of his short-comings. He was poor for them. So has been Kenny but he won a cup and represents an old hero with massive history so he can live off that for at least another 12 months. Same way we gave Ramos leniency following the shocking run of form after the CC final

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

...there is that! Mind you KK has won them a trophy... that should buy him another 25 years of Hero status!

Fingers crossed!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Of course he failed - his results were unacceptable in relation to their season objectives - Top 4 finish, cup runs, etc. Of course the fans needed little to turn against him and the rest is history. The same wat AVB failed with the media, etc. What could have been is another story

The fact Kenny has go on to largerly replicate that by no means exonerrates Roy of his short-comings. He was poor for them. So has been Kenny but he won a cup and represents an old hero with massive history so he can live off that for at least another 12 months. Same way we gave Ramos leniency following the shocking run of form after the CC final

While I am happy to admit he wasnt performing to expectations, I dont believe he had the support of the squad or enough time to put things right.

He left an unfinished job. Not sure I see it as a total failure.

Especially when KKKenny has an almost identical record, having spent ?ú100m, having enjoyed the full backing of the players and club...

And yes they won the CC, against a Championship outfit, after being taken to penalties... Forgive me if I dont think that completely exonerates KKK.

 

[ArcspacE]

This is not about exonerating KK although you have alluded to a similar reverse logic regarding Roy using the former's poor form as comparison

In my opinion - both have been poor in the Legue in a very similar 'consistent' level - main difference was one of them has the fans backing and history and the other one didn't. Bottom line for me - either of them would have been against the ropes if a similar situation of results had occured with us and our (current) season objectives. Such league form would constitute an overall failure with us, imho

 

[ArcspacE]

While I am happy to admit he wasnt performing to expectations, I dont believe he had the support of the squad or enough time to put things right.

He left an unfinished job. Not sure I see it as a total failure.

On a side note - this is the exact same logic we can apply to AVB although I believe you were one his doubters (for whatever reasons) so it all comes down to personal preference, don't you thinik? Potatoe. Potato

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Roy took over a basket case of a club with wild expectations.

Compared to their fans unrealistic ambitions he failed.

Compared to any reasonable persons expectations he could have done better but had a hell of a job to do.

At the point he was sacked he hadnt been afforded long enough to judge, IMO, and so its hard to say categorically he failed.

I find it very amusing that KKK has done the same job (almost) with so much more resource, and yet hasnt improved them an inch. This is a greater failure IMO.

With us I think you may be right, may be wrong. They look solid top 6 at the moment, something we would accept in reality. Though given the investment etc I could imagine Levy sharpening his knife

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

On a side note - this is the exact same logic we can apply to AVB although I believe you were one his doubters (for whatever reasons) so it all comes down to personal preference, don't you thinik? Potatoe. Potato

If you were paying attention you would know I was discounting his efforts in England as a success because they werent.

All who were talking him up as our next manager were doing so based upon his Portuguese exploits, and then simply excusing his Chelsea flop because of the evil media and players.

It is a perfectly valid point to raise in that the evidence to date - for whatever reason - does not proove he can succeed in England.

It doesnt prove he cant either, just that he hasnt so far - no matter what excuses are made for him.

So in the context of that conversation, someone who HAS proven a success in Enlgand has something AVB doesnt.

At no point have I discounted him entirely, I was in fact keen on him last summer for obvious reasons, my argument was simply that he wasnt the obvious shoe in some would have him be and that someone like Rodgers (as was the conversation) should not be discounted against AVB.

 

[ArcspacE]

If you were paying attention you would know I was discounting his efforts in England as a success because they werent.

All who were talking him up as our next manager were doing so based upon his Portuguese exploits, and then simply excusing his Chelsea flop because of the evil media and players.

It is a perfectly valid point to raise in that the evidence to date - for whatever reason - does not proove he can succeed in England.

It doesnt prove he cant either, just that he hasnt so far - no matter what excuses are made for him.

This is not about him as our potential manager - merely a summary of the conclusions on his Cheslea stint

My reference was to your Roy argument, which is centered around insufficient time and backing (from all sides really) - where you are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt (for example) although you wouldn't do the same when analysing AVB's tenure in largerly similar context

 

[1882]

Roy took over a basket case of a club with wild expectations.

Compared to their fans unrealistic ambitions he failed.

Compared to any reasonable persons expectations he could have done better but had a hell of a job to do.

At the point he was sacked he hadnt been afforded long enough to judge, IMO, and so its hard to say categorically he failed.

I find it very amusing that KKK has done the same job (almost) with so much more resource, and yet hasnt improved them an inch. This is a greater failure IMO.

With us I think you may be right, may be wrong. They look solid top 6 at the moment, something we would accept in reality. Though given the investment etc I could imagine Levy sharpening his knife

Sorry, for a moment there, I honestly couldn't tell if you were still talking about Liverpool or us a few years ago!!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

This is not about him as our potential manager - merely a summary of the conclusions on his Cheslea stint

My reference was to your Roy argument, which is centered around insufficient time and backing (from all sides really) - where you are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt (for example) although you wouldn't do the same when analysing AVB's tenure in largerly similar context

Then clearly you really arent paying attention.

Any comment I have made on AVB has been in relation to his taking over at Spurs compared to other candidates. And any comment I have made about Chelsea has been to the effect that "It didnt work", which it didnt.

I have never refuted that the players were against him, I have never refuted that in many respects he was unlucky.

The reason I didnt entertain your comments on AVB was because you had entirely missed the point. I dont care why it didnt work in ENgland, when dealing with facts the only result is that.... It didnt work in England.

You were looking to excuse this. Perhaps with reason, but ultimately with no way of justifying his Chelsea tenure.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Sorry, for a moment there, I honestly couldn't tell if you were still talking about Liverpool or us a few years ago!!

A fair point - I suspect secretly we Spurs fans know the insanity that the Liverpool fans display

 

[ArcspacE]

Then clearly you really arent paying attention.

Any comment I have made on AVB has been in relation to his taking over at Spurs compared to other candidates. And any comment I have made about Chelsea has been to the effect that "It didnt work", which it didnt.

I have never refuted that the players were against him, I have never refuted that in many respects he was unlucky.

The reason I didnt entertain your comments on AVB was because you had entirely missed the point. I dont care why it didnt work in ENgland, when dealing with facts the only result is that.... It didnt work in England.

You were looking to excuse this. Perhaps with reason, but ultimately with no way of justifying his Chelsea tenure.

But you are using the exact same logic to justify Roy' tenure - are you genuinely not able to see that? Surely you can't simply ignore all context and semi-ignorantly conclude one shouldn't care. (?) And if that's your logic then Roy surely has been a failure (by not looking at context, fans expectations, position, etc.)

I sincerely hope you can understand the double standards you appear to be applying here and in the process save me your patronising comments about constantly misunderstaning your posts.

 

[Kingdawson]

The only two managers i'm 100% definite about are Mourinho and Hiddink.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Arcy, I do believe your head is lodged so firmly up your rear that you are incapable of ever "getting" the points I try to make.

For example, right here, you drag up a week old conversation from another thread (totally missing the point of the original conversation) to try and berate me with, honestly I just dont care enough to entertain it.

I think Ill just avoid from her on in.

And do please try to stop sniping at me in other threads, many thanks.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The only two managers i'm 100% definite about are Mourinho and Hiddink.

And even they would carry with them some risk. Its the nature of the beast, any manager appointment (much like player signming, though with less consequence) can go completely wrong.

The best you can do is try to vet them enough to mitigate the risk as much as possible (no such thing as completely)

IMO this doesnt mean necessarily just going for the man with the most medals. Its more about the man himself than any record for me.