Moussa Sissoko

[Nifel]

Which moment was this? Genuinely interested. If it was the one where he broke quickly from inside our half and fed it to Kane, for Kane to lose it, I did think to myself at the time ‘someone on GG is going to blame that on the weight of Sissoko’s pass’

He can't be lucky in 2 games in a row you know That would mean possible skill. Sissoko did what he can do: Rush forward and then leave the ball and the attacking responsibility to a team mate before he himself stumbles on it. The longer he holds the ball, the higher risk. He was ready to explode by the time Kane got the ball

Sissoko should bring his notebook and look at the Son goal and how Alli served Son the ball. And then practice, practice and practice.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

That just isnt true.

I would suggest its more like people dont think his strengths are good enough. Or "enough" period.

Where others are rather keen to over sell them.

And that’s fine. But once again I don’t think anyone is ever saying Sissoko is anything that he is not. No one is inventing his strengths or claiming he does things that he doesn’t, or claiming he’s a 10/10 player each week. Anyone defending him is arguing for his actual strengths to be recognised, rather than either viewing him as a joke figure or claiming that he doesn’t have any. And personally I’m always going to rail against anyone using him as a joke figure when he’s one of our players and he just doesn’t deserve that.

Having a personal preference of say, Winks type players vs Sissoko types, incisive passing vs strength, is totally fine. But a lot of people are taking that personal preference and using it to claim Sissoko is a joke figure who is incapable of the most simple tasks. I’ve yet to read someone defending Sissoko claim he can do something that he can’t. No one is over selling him or trying to over state his importance.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think, if you were to read through the thread somewhat dis passionately, you would see just how far the people supporting Sissoko are stretching things.

In your own words - "rail against".

And thats the internets for you. A debate isnt worth having if it cant be polarised and sent to the extremes. If a comment from a month ago cant be held against you. And if somehow "winning" is all that matter...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think, if you were to read through the thread somewhat dis passionately, you would see just how far the people supporting Sissoko are stretching things.

In your own words - "rail against".

And thats the internets for you. A debate isnt worth having if it cant be polarised and sent to the extremes. If a comment from a month ago cant be held against you. And if somehow "winning" is all that matter...

Rail against people laughing at him, by pointing out his actual strengths. I really shouldn’t use any phrases facetiously with you because they get taken very literally!

I really don’t think anyone in this thread has gone to such great, polarised lengths to defend Sissoko. No one has claimed he can do something that he can’t. No one has over stated his importance. But the people treating him as a joke literally say he struggles to control a football. Or will regularly say he was the worst player on the pitch when other favourites were actually worse by any objective measure. Or cloak any praise of him with ‘even Sissoko played well!’ as if it needs that qualifying statement, as if he’s been bad for months, which he just hasn’t been.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And therin lies the difference.

You view him as having strengths, then them being of value. And then you accuse others of not seeing/refusing to see his strengths.

My original counter to that was simple. I (and many) are well aware of these strengths. I(we) just dont think they qualify him as good enough for our
team.

And its funny you are still smarting on that from the other day. As I said at the time, there is a reason I picked up on it - clearly your intent was not clear, and since said Id take your word on it. Im not really sure what the issue is there.

 

[Rorschach]

Might I remind the naysayers that Sissoko nutmegged a Southampton player yesterday. Yep put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And therin lies the difference.

You view him as having strengths, then them being of value. And then you accuse others of not seeing/refusing to see his strengths.

My original counter to that was simple. I (and many) are well aware of these strengths. I(we) just dont think they qualify him as good enough for our
team.

And its funny you are still smarting on that from the other day. As I said at the time, there is a reason I picked up on it - clearly your intent was not clear, and since said Id take your word on it. Im not really sure what the issue is there.

Jesus Christ Man! I’m not smarting on the Winks thing from the other day, I picked his name as an example this morning because he represents a different type of player to Sissoko in style. The fact that you keep trying to bring me up on that as if you’ve caught me out or something, is just bizarre.

I’ve always said Sissoko or whoever else, it’s a matter of personal preference in terms of style. I’m fine with people not wanting Sissoko style strengths in their ideal Spurs team and being up front about the fact that it is personal preference. The line of ‘I don’t like him as a player, and I wouldn’t play him, but I can see what he brings and if Poch likes him, that’s fair enough’ is obviously very fair. But my point has always been, treating him as a joke figure, claiming he can’t control a football, claiming that he needs ten attempts to do one good thing or claiming that any obvious good thing wasn’t intentional, or claiming he just brings nothing to the team, those things I am arguing against. Acknowledging that he has strengths but that they just don’t fit in with your ideal Spurs team, is totally fine.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What was this then?

I really shouldn’t use any phrases facetiously with you because they get taken very literally!

If not a pop at the only other incident where I picked up on something you said? Which, in the way it was said, was an entirely valid thing to do.


Again - I think you are wrong. The sort of strengths he does have are those I admire in players. As I have said to you explicitly myself.

Fundamentally though, he just doesnt have ENOUGH to warrant a place in our side. Expecially basic quality/technique. No amount of work rate can make up for that in a team of our level.

It is true that his touch is fudging awful the majority of the time. It is true that slows play down with his bumbling around. It is true players often pass around him to avoid just that. And, yes, it is true he works very hard. And, as Ive also already said, he does have value defensively.

He just doesnt have enough value as a player to warrant his starts.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What was this then?

I really shouldn’t use any phrases facetiously with you because they get taken very literally!

If not a pop at the only other incident where I picked up on something you said? Which, in the way it was said, was an entirely valid thing to do.


Again - I think you are wrong. The sort of strengths he does have are those I admire in players. As I have said to you explicitly myself.

Fundamentally though, he just doesnt have ENOUGH to warrant a place in our side. Expecially basic quality/technique. No amount of work rate can make up for that in a team of our level.

It is true that his touch is fudging awful the majority of the time. It is true that slows play down with his bumbling around. It is true players often pass around him to avoid just that. And, yes, it is true he works very hard. And, as Ive also already said, he does have value defensively.

He just doesnt have enough value as a player to warrant his starts.

Saying rail against fans that treat him as a joke figure is not me going to the end of the world to claim Sissoko has strengths that he doesn’t or defend him as much as the people that criticise him. It was a somewhat jokey phrase used by me to explain somewhat why I’m so active in this thread. It’s not to shutdown any and all criticism of him, it’s to ideally have him treated like less of a joke figure. But to you, it was absolute evidence that I’m head of the Evangelical Church of Sissoko and proof that I’m defending him as much as others are criticising.

The ‘other incident’ is just something you’ve got badly, and quite weirdly, wrong. You haven’t picked me up on anything. I said Sissoko was ahead of Winks for the Burnley game, assuming Winks was on the bench. I then admitted about 5 minutes later when I checked the team sheet that I was wrong. You haven’t caught me out on anything. You didn’t get an insight into a big secret of mine whereby I’d rather play Sissoko ahead of Winks 100% of the time and that Poch agrees. You just took something from one innocuous comment that frankly wasn’t there, and are still picking up on it days later even though I think I’ve said 4 times now since then that ‘Sissoko is ahead of Winks’ was because I thought Winks was on the bench and Sissoko started ahead of him. Nothing else. Seriously, stop assuming it was something noteworthy. I wasn’t even linking that ‘incident’ to this morning, I was just picking up on the fact that you’ve used my phrase of ‘rail against’ as proof that I’m going to praise Sissoko to an extent he doesn’t deserve. But looking back, I can see why you are linking my Winks comment to it, because you were assuming that my saying ‘Winks is ahead of Sissoko’ (meaning for the Burnley game, which I since admitted super quickly that I was wrong on) is also proof of my over praising of Sissoko. It just isn’t. You misunderstood, and even though I’ve admitted in at least 4 separate posts I was wrong, you’re still referring back to it.

I’d quite like you to provide some evidence of him having a ‘fudging awful touch the majority of the time’ because it should be quite an easy stat to bring up. Majority of the time is a pretty significant qualifying statement. I also think this ‘the players pass around him’ thing is just nonsense. Yes, they probably won’t pass to him much in attacking areas because they want to get the likes of Dele and Son on the ball, because they will do more damage. But the idea that the players are so scared of his terrible technique that they will do anything to not give him the ball, is the exact kind of nonsense I’m ‘railing’ against.

As for tempo, he’s started or played significant minutes in some of our most high tempo games this season. He’s also played in a lot of games when the tempo as a whole has been slow, and where most players are taking an easy or safer option so much so that I think it is part of Poch methodology to have slower tempo games in the first half of the season to conserve condition for the second half. If Sissoko is solely responsible for slowing our tempo as an entire team and making every other player play safer options too because of his terrible technique, I’d be flabbergasted. I’d also be very confused about how the team is suddenly able to break at pace, press high and move the ball quickly when he is in the team. Because we did that against Burnley. We did it against Everton away. We did it against Real Madrid away and at home. We’ve also had slow tempo games when he hasn’t started, and slow tempo games where he has. But ultimately he is not the one that makes our team move the ball and press faster or slower. That comes from Poch.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So, its ok for you to be jokey or facetious but not me? Pot.. Kettle...

The "other incident" was, as it turned out, a genuine mis communication. Im happy with that.

You didnt say "Sissoko is ahead of Winks for the Burnley game". You said "Sissoko is ahead of Winks", a rather categoric - and false - statement. Which is what I picked up upon. You THEN explained you were talking about one game, as was wrong anyway. Thats cool, it happens. And its not me repeatedly having a little nibble at that. Rather, when it seems you are having a bite - Ive repetedly pointed out why you got the response you did and that I later accepted your explanation. It really shouldnt be dragging on.

And after that, you just go on to prove yourself as Sissoko defender #1.

I shouldnt have to prove he has a fudging awful touch most of the time. Because he has a fudging awful touch most of the time. Use your eyes, its obvious. Asking me to do so is just trying to set up some something else to try and defend. The guys touch is awful, just watch him play.

You yourself state he is so bad in attack players pass around him. Its not a virtue. And, again, shouldnt require a thesis from the University of whofudgingcares to prove what we have all seen a number of times. And, of course, I have NOT ONCE stated "the players are so scared of his terrible technique that they will do anything to not give him the ball". Were that statement in some way valid Id have no issue. Its not though, and its what you then use to justify your "railing against" (tongue in cheek, Im sure). Straw man, much?

As for tempo, second straw man in a single post - well done. Not once did I even mention it. Unless you are referring to the point he does slow play, and moves do break down, often when he gets involved. Often, simply, because he struggles to control the ball. And then takes time to work out what to do with it. Again, thats just how it is. He isnt at the level of his team mates and there are plenty of times it shows.

But please, do carry on.

I made a point of saying he passed and moved well against Burnley, just as he played some nice one touch passes as well. Just as I said he was generally pretty good on the day (glaring miss aside). Explicitly I pointed to things he did well that I think are weaknesses of him. Please, keep going at me like I cant see things, or cant commend him when he does things well, or as if I somehow WANT him to be bad.

As ridiculous as that all is, its undeniably entertaining.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So, its ok for you to be jokey or facetious but not me? Pot.. Kettle...

The "other incident" was, as it turned out, a genuine mis communication. Im happy with that.

You didnt say "Sissoko is ahead of Winks for the Burnley game". You said "Sissoko is ahead of Winks", a rather categoric - and false - statement. Which is what I picked up upon. You THEN explained you were talking about one game, as was wrong anyway. Thats cool, it happens. And its not me repeatedly having a little nibble at that. Rather, when it seems you are having a bite - Ive repetedly pointed out why you got the response you did and that I later accepted your explanation. It really shouldnt be dragging on.

And after that, you just go on to prove yourself as Sissoko defender #1.

I shouldnt have to prove he has a fudging awful touch most of the time. Because he has a fudging awful touch most of the time. Use your eyes, its obvious. Asking me to do so is just trying to set up some something else to try and defend. The guys touch is awful, just watch him play.

You yourself state he is so bad in attack players pass around him. Its not a virtue. And, again, shouldnt require a thesis from the University of whofudgingcares to prove what we have all seen a number of times. And, of course, I have NOT ONCE stated "the players are so scared of his terrible technique that they will do anything to not give him the ball". Were that statement in some way valid Id have no issue. Its not though, and its what you then use to justify your "railing against" (tongue in cheek, Im sure). Straw man, much?

As for tempo, second straw man in a single post - well done. Not once did I even mention it. Unless you are referring to the point he does slow play, and moves do break down, often when he gets involved. Often, simply, because he struggles to control the ball. And then takes time to work out what to do with it. Again, thats just how it is. He isnt at the level of his team mates and there are plenty of times it shows.

But please, do carry on.

I made a point of saying he passed and moved well against Burnley, just as he played some nice one touch passes as well. Just as I said he was generally pretty good on the day (glaring miss aside). Explicitly I pointed to things he did well that I think are weaknesses of him. Please, keep going at me like I cant see things, or cant commend him when he does things well, or as if I somehow WANT him to be bad.

As ridiculous as that all is, its undeniably entertaining.

I’m missing the part where you’re being jokey or facetious.

You keep dragging my Winks comment up. Not me. You got it wrong and assumed I was talking about something that I wasn’t.

I watch every game. I don’t think his touch is as bad as you’re making out. It just isn’t.

I don’t state he is ‘so bad in attack’. I state that in offensive positions you probably want Dele, Son or Eriksen on the ball. It isn’t a massive revelation.

You state that players pass around him. Why do you think they are doing that, if - in your mind - not for them thinking he won’t be as good on the ball as others, which is what I’m saying? Why would they pass around him, if they are indeed doing that? They must think, if you are right, that is technique is poor and they should avoid him, no?

Tempo generally refers to how quickly a team moves the ball. And again, I watch every game. Rarely does our tempo slow because he has failed to control the ball. Rarely does a move completely break down because he can’t control it, or doesn’t know where he’s giving it, because most of the time...he’s playing a first time pass to someone better on the ball than he is!! As his is role. I’d love to be pointed to repeated instances of him getting on the ball, not controlling it and a move breaking down due to terrible touch. Again, I watch every game and it really doesn’t happen more than for any other player, for for a centre mid, you’d expect him to be recycling the ball more than most.

But either players pass around him and so he’s not really often on the ball in offensive positions...or he so regularly breaks down our play because of a poor touch (because he actually is on the ball). Which is it?

That above sentence, is somewhat facetious. Either way though I just flat disagree. I’m not saying his touch is anywhere near the best in our squad. To say moves often break down because his is somehow noteworthily bad...just false.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And I can totally see you credit him in the Burnley game for doing all the things you say he can’t do. So that must mean that in other games he has failed to control the ball with such regularity that they are worthy criticisms, right? Which games are these? Which instances are his pass completion stats awfully low? Which games has he been noticeably the worst player on the pitch this season because of a poor touch? He can do it against Burnley, and he’s done it in plenty of other games too. So where are they?

I will start you off with Leceister away, where he was really bad. And his passing was way off.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think its obvious Pochettino plays Sissoko simply because he has had no other options.

Well tonight he had the option of dembele, Dele or eriksen.

Eriksen and Dele are playing, and Demebele has been awful - as widely posted on here - so whats your point?

He’s also ahead of Winks. I think it’s pretty clear that the ‘he gets nowhere near the 11 when everyone is fit’ and the ‘he’s being played just so we can sell him’ are both nonsense.

Since when!?

City - Winks Starts, Sissoko bench
Brighton - Both start
Stoke - Winks Starts, Sissoko bench
Apoel- Both start
Watford - Both Bench
Leicester - Sissoko starts, Winks not in squad (injured?)
WBA- Winks Starts, Sissoko bench
Dortmund - Winks Starts, Sissoko bench
Arsenal - Sissoko starts, Winks bench
Palace - Both start
Real Madrid - Winks Starts, Sissoko bench

Thats our last 11 games, as far back as the beginning of November. Winks starts and Sissoko on the bench 5 out of those. Both start 3. Only 2 Sissoko starts ahead of Winks, one of which I dont think Winks was available.

So how exactly do you reach that conclusion?


He is being played so we can sell him is nonsense. Its a silly point and one Ive never made.

He is playing because of a total lack of options? Thats entirely valid.

My bad, I was referring to tonight and assumed Winks was on the bench.

He’s playing ok this first half though, right?

I did get it wrong. I read your comment as it appeared. I should have really assumed a whole bunch of meaning you didnt make at all clear.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Oh...my GHod.

I would totally get still bringing this up if I had refused to apologise or stuck by my original statement. The fact that I clarified it as quickly as I could means this really shouldn’t still be being discussed. I got it wrong. You assumed I was saying something I wasn’t. That should have been the end of it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Ahhhhhh! And actually, reading that back, you should have been able to see that in the context it was meant. ‘Eriksen and Dele are playing, Dembele has been awful) (REFERRING TO THE GAME THAT WAS BEING PLAYED RIGHT FREAKING THEN!!!) then my comment about Winks, he’s ‘also’ ahead of Winks.

I corrected myself as quickly as I could, but you thought I was trying to get at something I wasn’t.

As I said though, if I failed to apologise for my mistake almost immediately, I’d get still bringing this up. But you’ve just got it wrong. Just leave it...sheesh.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And the point stands. Being played because we had no other options...it just again is like a needless over the top critique of him. So we started him in the NLD because he’s an absolute bottom of the barrel talent in our squad, but we kept Winks on the bench?

Why did we loan out Onamah? If Sissoko really had this terrible touch that renders him really unable to compete at Spurs, why not give Josh more games?

And the idea that Dembele being out of form doesn’t count, again it’s just harsh on Sissoko. Because I can just as easily say a fully fit, in form and confident Sissoko would be a first 11 starter every time, but he was out of form in the Leceister game, as widely acknowledged, so that doesn’t really count.

The fact is, he is in our squad and being played because he does a job. Would we have listened to offers for him? Sure. Would we have played him in as many important games if we didn’t consider him a valuable member of the squad as he’s still here? Of course not.

He’s here, he’s doing a job. Our best manager in decades thinks his touch is good enough to feature in every game in some capacity. It’s good enough for me.

 

[harr1984]

And the point stands. Being played because we had no other options...it just again is like a needless over the top critique of him. So we started him in the NLD because he’s an absolute bottom of the barrel talent in our squad, but we kept Winks on the bench?

Why did we loan out Onamah? If Sissoko really had this terrible touch that renders him really unable to compete at Spurs, why not give Josh more games?

And the idea that Dembele being out of form doesn’t count, again it’s just harsh on Sissoko. Because I can just as easily say a fully fit, in form and confident Sissoko would be a first 11 starter every time, but he was out of form in the Leceister game, as widely acknowledged, so that doesn’t really count.

The fact is, he is in our squad and being played because he does a job. Would we have listened to offers for him? Sure. Would we have played him in as many important games if we didn’t consider him a valuable member of the squad as he’s still here? Of course not.

He’s here, he’s doing a job. Our best manager in decades thinks his touch is good enough to feature in every game in some capacity. It’s good enough for me.

Exactly what Ive said - He's always fit and in great condition to cover a lot of ground, does the job asked of him clearly otherwise wouldnt of had so many appearances this season regardless of injuries....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ahhhhhh! And actually, reading that back, you should have been able to see that in the context it was meant. ‘Eriksen and Dele are playing, Dembele has been awful) (REFERRING TO THE GAME THAT WAS BEING PLAYED RIGHT FREAKING THEN!!!) then my comment about Winks, he’s ‘also’ ahead of Winks.

I corrected myself as quickly as I could, but you thought I was trying to get at something I wasn’t.

As I said though, if I failed to apologise for my mistake almost immediately, I’d get still bringing this up. But you’ve just got it wrong. Just leave it...sheesh.

Its not me that wont let it drop. I genuinely dont give a brick, aside from being misrepresented.

And the point stands. Being played because we had no other options...it just again is like a needless over the top critique of him. So we started him in the NLD because he’s an absolute bottom of the barrel talent in our squad, but we kept Winks on the bench?

As memory serves Winks wasnt fit. Or, in other words, Poch had little option.

Why did we loan out Onamah? If Sissoko really had this terrible touch that renders him really unable to compete at Spurs, why not give Josh more games?

Wanyama was fit. Demebele was expected back. Winks was exepected back. No one anticipated injuries like Alderweireld forcinf DIer into defence.

In other words, Poch had plenty of options at the time, not even including Sissoko.

And the idea that Dembele being out of form doesn’t count, again it’s just harsh on Sissoko. Because I can just as easily say a fully fit, in form and confident Sissoko would be a first 11 starter every time, but he was out of form in the Leceister game, as widely acknowledged, so that doesn’t really count.

We have had a fully fit Sissoko for 18 months. He has been poor. We have had a fully fit Dembele, he has been incredible. The comparison just doesnt stand.

Dembele is right out of sorts, and has been all season. He hasnt really been a viable option yet. I would imagine, as he (hopefully) becomes fitter and more reliable, we will see less of Sissoko. And as Wanyama does the same, even less of Sissoko. And this is the point. When everyone is fit and available its entirely possible Sissoko doesnt even make the bench.

The fact is, he is in our squad and being played because he does a job. Would we have listened to offers for him? Sure. Would we have played him in as many important games if we didn’t consider him a valuable member of the squad as he’s still here? Of course not.

He’s here, he’s doing a job. Our best manager in decades thinks his touch is good enough to feature in every game in some capacity. It’s good enough for me.

We are making the best of a bad hand. No one has said otherwise.

Heres the thing where I get a little confused. Were this conversation all about Aurier, it would make so much sense. Im a big fan of his, I think he has quality and huge potential - but at the same time he has undeniably been erratic to say the least. If there was this rather polarised debate around HIM it would make total sense.

Sissoko? He has been poor since we got him. Yes, he has improved this season, and even then it is completely evident he is no where near the quality of the rest of the squad. He sticks out like a sore thumb despite "doing a job". To point that out is basically a statement of fact and the vehement defense of him is astounding to say the least.

 

[Lemonade Money]

WALOB

 

[parklane1]

WALOB

Some truth in that, the biggest problem is that they are a few who judged him as brick and no matter what he does they will not accept that some of their comments were over the top.