MEGA RANT time for Levy & Co to go

[braineclipse]

Indeed!

 

[billyiddo]

BoL - are Swansea and Southampton really good examples?

At the first sign of their year on year improvement coming to a halt Swansea sacked their manager Laudrup, having won them their first ever major trophy the season prior and Southampton sacked Atkins a few months in to their first season back in the Prem.

Both as ruthless as Levy it seems when managers fail to achieve the high targets set for them.

 

[milo]

To add to the above point, I think this season Levy's actions have kept us 'where we should be' as a club that looks like they have loads of potential to push on, rather than wanting to push on themselves.

I don't think he wants to push on, or is capable. He knows the way he used that money, we'd get some young players in that would get really good and will improve sell on value, and the cycle would begin again. I think he would rather us continue in a status quo 5th/6th position so that we can be sold to someone that can take the next step, rather than taking the risks needed to push on. That way when a buyer comes along, he can sell the club as something that just needs a little investment to take it to the next level, rather than as a midtable one that needs more work. He knows if he risks to push on himself, the club could fall down further then he would like.

And that's why I don't really trust that he wants to get us to that next level himself. His policies won't ever let that happen.

That does not make any sense to me. What do you think ENIC's motivation is for owning Spurs?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

That does not make any sense to me. What do you think ENIC's motivation is for owning Spurs?

To sell it on for a nice profit. Obviously they could get more profit where we a CL regular. But for them to take the risk in doing that, it could result in us being shot back down to mid table if it all goes wrong. I think they are quite happy for us to be spinning our wheels in 5th or 6th and taking a lucky 4th doing what they are doing, rather than trying to make us title contenders now.

Then we've got the illusion of a club that just needs that final push to become a big time player to a new investor. If we can offer a new owner a stadium as well then all the better.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

BoL - are Swansea and Southampton really good examples?

At the first sign of their year on year improvement coming to a halt Swansea sacked their manager Laudrup, having won them their first ever major trophy the season prior and Southampton sacked Atkins a few months in to their first season back in the Prem.

Both as ruthless as Levy it seems when managers fail to achieve the high targets set for them.

That wasn't a point about backing managers, it was a point about them making good decisions consistently and seeing a vision through. Swansea's managerial appointments have all been to carry on a vision, where as Levy has lurched from one type to another desperately hoping to find some managerial GHod which I'm not sure exists.

Cortese sacked Adkins and brought in MP and everyone thought he was nuts. But he we a visionary, he was ahead of the game and he knew he had a plan and needed someone like MP to take it forward. He's been shown to be right.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

To be fair I think Harry was the right sacking if he was looking for a manager more likely to make use of the youth players...although then again he didn't mind chucking in the prospects at West Ham. But then AVB was totally the wrong appointment considering what Levy was looking for.

And that's blown my faith in him well away. This season has been a disaster and I blame Levy for it. He's done alright overall, but I don't get the sense he really knows how to make us take the next step. I think he wants to build up the club to the point where someone else can take us there.

 

[milo]

But then AVB was totally the wrong appointment considering what Levy was looking for.

Sorry for all the questions but why do you think this? What do you think Levy was looking for?

I think that AVB was a logical choice considering the way that the club operates. The only question mark over him was his time at Chelsea, unfortunately, we had a mini repeat of what happened there.

 

[milo]

To sell it on for a nice profit. Obviously they could get more profit where we a CL regular. But for them to take the risk in doing that, it could result in us being shot back down to mid table if it all goes wrong. I think they are quite happy for us to be spinning our wheels in 5th or 6th and taking a lucky 4th doing what they are doing, rather than trying to make us title contenders now.

Then we've got the illusion of a club that just needs that final push to become a big time player to a new investor. If we can offer a new owner a stadium as well then all the better.

I agree that they will look to sell the club on for a healthy profit at some stage. I think that they have decided that the best way of doing this is sustainable growth with the club living within its means. They have largely delivered on this with us regularly finishing above clubs that outspend us.

 

[braineclipse]

To be fair I think Harry was the right sacking if he was looking for a manager more likely to make use of the youth players...although then again he didn't mind chucking in the prospects at West Ham. But then AVB was totally the wrong appointment considering what Levy was looking for.

And that's blown my faith in him well away. This season has been a disaster and I blame Levy for it. He's done alright overall, but I don't get the sense he really knows how to make us take the next step. I think he wants to build up the club to the point where someone else can take us there.

Again.

Why is he sacking manages that's delivering what you're claiming is his target for the club?

You're saying he has no ambitions beyond where we are now, yet he keeps going through a lot of trouble when results are as they are. What's his motivation behind this if he has no ambitions beyond where we are now?

 

[braineclipse]

That wasn't a point about backing managers, it was a point about them making good decisions consistently and seeing a vision through. Swansea's managerial appointments have all been to carry on a vision, where as Levy has lurched from one type to another desperately hoping to find some managerial GHod which I'm not sure exists.

Cortese sacked Adkins and brought in MP and everyone thought he was nuts. But he we a visionary, he was ahead of the game and he knew he had a plan and needed someone like MP to take it forward. He's been shown to be right.

Not sure about Levy lurching from one type to another.

First of all it seems that Levy prefers working with a DoF/technical director type. Levy demanding a style of manager he prefers over his DoF seems like a suicidal idea. We're on our third DoF since Levy took over and Arnesen was eventually given the job, fourth if you count Pleat as another one. Of course there will be some changes.

I also think it's worth pointing out that Redknapp was hired when we were a bit desperate. Never a surprise for me at least that after that we moved back towards a DoF model again.

I like(d) Cortese, but no doubt he took a massive risk on Poch all things considered. It was a brave decision that worked out really well. Everything becomes extremely results oriented in football, Southampton stayed up with 41 points. A couple of points above what often is relegation and only 5 points above relegated Wigan. That to me is pretty slim margins. Would you have been as positive about Cortese and Southampton had they gone down? Something that very easily could have happened. In which case I'm sure he would have been another "business man that knows nothing about football ruining a club", at least to most of the media.

I think a lot of Levy's decisions have been similarly brave. Some of his decisions have worked out really well, some not so much. But he's been brave all along, he's trusted himself and his plan. If we were to lose Levy I think Cortese would be way up on my list of preferred replacements actually, but I see no reason to replace Levy at this time.

There's been a pretty clear trend towards overachieving compared to our turnover, there's been a pretty clear trend of progress. Yes we've hit a bump in the road, but that doesn't mean we should give up on the man that has been delivering these results.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Again.

Why is he sacking manages that's delivering what you're claiming is his target for the club?

You're saying he has no ambitions beyond where we are now, yet he keeps going through a lot of trouble when results are as they are. What's his motivation behind this if he has no ambitions beyond where we are now?

Because they aren't sacked for results. Harry was sacked because of the type of manager he is, rather than results. AVB was sacked again because I think Levy realised he wasn't what he needed.

To me AVB is a guy that would be able to build a club and has a specific idea on a way of playing, but needs time to build it when a club hasn't been prepared like it before. So for AVB to be a success he needs a lot of backing in the sense that I believe Cortese gave MP. But Levy wants the coach to be expendable, and for the power to be with him and the DOF.

So guys like Rafa and LVG probably appeal to Levy to an extent. Guys that can get results pretty swiftly and can be moved on if need be. AVB isn't that guy, certainly when he's coming into a club that hasn't had that kind of structure before. He would have always needed time and he isn't going to get it under Levy.

 

[milo]

Because they aren't sacked for results. Harry was sacked because of the type of manager he is, rather than results. AVB was sacked again because I think Levy realised he wasn't what he needed.

To me AVB is a guy that would be able to build a club and has a specific idea on a way of playing, but needs time to build it when a club hasn't been prepared like it before. So for AVB to be a success he needs a lot of backing in the sense that I believe Cortese gave MP. But Levy wants the coach to be expendable, and for the power to be with him and the DOF.

So guys like Rafa and LVG probably appeal to Levy to an extent. Guys that can get results pretty swiftly and can be moved on if need be. AVB isn't that guy, certainly when he's coming into a club that hasn't had that kind of structure before. He would have always needed time and he isn't going to get it under Levy.

AVB wasn't sacked.

You say that he needed time, I believe that he would have got that if he had been better at maintaining relationships with the decision makers at the club.

 

[braineclipse]

Because they aren't sacked for results. Harry was sacked because of the type of manager he is, rather than results. AVB was sacked again because I think Levy realised he wasn't what he needed.

To me AVB is a guy that would be able to build a club and has a specific idea on a way of playing, but needs time to build it when a club hasn't been prepared like it before. So for AVB to be a success he needs a lot of backing in the sense that I believe Cortese gave MP. But Levy wants the coach to be expendable, and for the power to be with him and the DOF.

So guys like Rafa and LVG probably appeal to Levy to an extent. Guys that can get results pretty swiftly and can be moved on if need be. AVB isn't that guy, certainly when he's coming into a club that hasn't had that kind of structure before. He would have always needed time and he isn't going to get it under Levy.

Funny that you talk about time and also talk about Cortese. The man that sacked Adkins after consecutive promotions and a PL start that saw them just above relegation in his first PL season.

Poch kept delivering good enough results for Southampton. Had AVB done that for us he probably would still have his job.

I have no idea why AVB wouldn't be a guy that could deliver results quickly, he knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He had been delivering results very quickly at Porto. I'm quite sure those results were a big selling point for him. He was brought in as a head coach, not a manager. He himself said he wanted to work under a DoF. Why should he expect all this time and power you say he needed? And not worked under that kind of structure before? Do you think AVB was an all powerful, club changing manager at Porto? Do you think he was at Chelsea?

How about the Jol sacking then? Or how about Sherwood reportedly being gone? Their results were/are at the level you claim Levy has his ambitions.

 

[braineclipse]

AVB wasn't sacked.

You say that he needed time, I believe that he would have got that if he had been better at maintaining relationships with the decision makers at the club.

Agreed. That and/or delivering adequate results would have kept him in his job.

When he was in conflict with just about everyone and losing by downright nasty figures on a somewhat regular basis would we really want Levy to just blindly trust him (and his own previous appointment) and keep giving him time?

Could the same argument be made about Liverpool? They should have kept trusting and giving time and money to Hodgson and/or Dalglish? Pretty poor to just sack them like that?

 

[Hootnow]

At what club has AVB built up btw?

I still like AVB (though as I've said mutiple times could see why he was fired by the end) but where does this confidence come from that he would build up Spurs? From his long and illustrious history of building up clubs to heights one or two levels above what they had seen before?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Guys just to be clear I wasn't talking in any way about the fact that AVB needed time, that wasn't the point at all.

I bring up Cortese because he was a visionary. Again I wasn't using him as a good example because he backed a manager, I was using him as a good example because he has a plan and went out to get the man he wanted to enact it, and it worked. Despite probably everyone in football with media space for their opinions telling him he would be wrong.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Funny that you talk about time and also talk about Cortese. The man that sacked Adkins after consecutive promotions and a PL start that saw them just above relegation in his first PL season.

Poch kept delivering good enough results for Southampton. Had AVB done that for us he probably would still have his job.

I have no idea why AVB wouldn't be a guy that could deliver results quickly, he knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He had been delivering results very quickly at Porto. I'm quite sure those results were a big selling point for him. He was brought in as a head coach, not a manager. He himself said he wanted to work under a DoF. Why should he expect all this time and power you say he needed? And not worked under that kind of structure before? Do you think AVB was an all powerful, club changing manager at Porto? Do you think he was at Chelsea?

How about the Jol sacking then? Or how about Sherwood reportedly being gone? Their results were/are at the level you claim Levy has his ambitions.

AVB came into a club at Porto that had a pretty good structure already, he just made it better. Chelsea and Spurs saw what he did and thought, 'I'd like some of that' but the job is obviously different. It will obviously take longer. But again, that isn't my point.

My point was that Levy made the wrong choice in hiring him. If you bring in a Benitez or a Van Gaal you aren't going to expect them to be around for years on end. They will work with what they have been given, try their best with it and move on. Good for the first team but debatable as to whether it sets us for the long term, although that's where Baldini should come in. If you bring in an AVB or a Rodgers, or a Martinez, it's about giving them time because you've seen something at their clubs in terms of structure and style that you'd like at yours.

Levy clearly made the wrong choice in AVB.

 

[milo]

Guys just to be clear I wasn't talking in any way about the fact that AVB needed time, that wasn't the point at all.

I bring up Cortese because he was a visionary. Again I wasn't using him as a good example because he backed a manager, I was using him as a good example because he has a plan and went out to get the man he wanted to enact it, and it worked. Despite probably everyone in football with media space for their opinions telling him he would be wrong.

I don't think that anyone would argue that Pochettino was an astute appointment and one that hardly anyone else would have made but I think that the step up that we are trying to make is a lot harder than the one that Southampton have made under Pochettino, particularly when we do not have the option of matching the spending of the clubs above us.

 

[milo]

AVB came into a club at Porto that had a pretty good structure already, he just made it better. Chelsea and Spurs saw what he did and thought, 'I'd like some of that' but the job is obviously different. It will obviously take longer. But again, that isn't my point.

My point was that Levy made the wrong choice in hiring him. If you bring in a Benitez or a Van Gaal you aren't going to expect them to be around for years on end. They will work with what they have been given, try their best with it and move on. Good for the first team but debatable as to whether it sets us for the long term, although that's where Baldini should come in. If you bring in an AVB or a Rodgers, or a Martinez, it's about giving them time because you've seen something at their clubs in terms of structure and style that you'd like at yours.

Levy clearly made the wrong choice in AVB.

I think that AVB would have got as long as he wanted if he had been able to maintain professional relationships.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't think that anyone would argue that Pochettino was an astute appointment and one that hardly anyone else would have made but I think that the step up that we are trying to make is a lot harder than the one that Southampton have made under Pochettino, particularly when we do not have the option of matching the spending of the clubs above us.

I'm not saying we should go for MP, or that the challenges are the same really. Although actually, Cortese has taken then from bottom of League 1 the top 8 in the country. That's a pretty significant step. Have they spent a bit of money? Sure, but not outrageous amounts really. They've also done it playing a style of football admired by pretty much everyone and by using a lot of their academy in a system that allows them to flourish. Cortese has done an excellent job, whether we compare his challenges to ours or not. I'm not trying to make any point other than if someone asks 'can you name another chairman who has done as well as Levy', well yes, there are plenty. I used to be well aboard the 'Levy is the best chairman in the land' train, but it's now clearly nonsense. He's still very good, but he's not a visionary and ahead of the game like someone truly exceptional would be. But I'd take Levy over the Venkys of this world, and also over the Ashelys, the Lerners. We could do a hell of a lot worse and we could also do a little worse. I no longer think Levy is some unbeatable chairman guru though who still sails by some of you without seemingly a jot of questioning on his decision making.