MEGA RANT time for Levy & Co to go

[Raziel]

I wonder why Ferguson was given time at Man Utd to change the culture, move them away from the macarons playing and in charge of the club at the time, turn them into a winning machine again?

Maybe something to do with the fact that the man, as harsh as he was, had an ability to make and maintain relationships?

SAF would have been fired in his first two seasons likely today.

The problem with when people talk about SAF, Wenger, Bill or anyone from 15 - 20 - 50 years ago, is that, it was a different time, when the money risk in the game was not nearly the same.

Levy is a very good chairman, and I always ask when people bring this thread up

- name 2 better chairmen in the league that you would replace Levy with?

Outside of that, it's just wanting a sugar daddy, and forgetting we are Spurs, even with a sugar daddy, we will find a way to **** it up.

 

[milo]

Of course it's important to build good working relationships. Which is exactly what happened during the first season when AVB was calling Levy a 'person of great football understanding' and love was in the air. It's clear he can build good relationships, but when push comes to shove and decisions need to be made, about the direction of the club, AVB was a man with no support. He wanted out because he knew he wasn't the right man for the club. Sherwood has been bloody brilliant at building relationships and telling Levy what he wants to hear, doesn't make him any good though. I'm sure there came a point with Sherwood where at the point of push coming to shove, you either compromise yourself and what make you, you, or you realise you are in the wrong working environment and get out. AVB was the wrong hire. He doesn't need to just accept Levy's way when it's so different from his own. He can up and leave. He is a valuable commodity with a set of highly desirable skills, the idea that he should submit to the juggernaut of perennial Europa Leagers Tottenham is hilarious to me, as if we were the best he could do, or the only option he had.

The last line is so ironic btw.

According to Greg Stobard and a few others the relationship between Levy and AVB soured pretty much immediately on him being appointed which was why we were happy for PSG to court him last summer. AVB fell out with loads of people at the club this season. That is not forming good working relationships and is the reason why he left the club. It was a similar story at Chelsea, was this Levys fault too?

As for the claim of a lack of support, the club brought in Baldini last summer, we tried to sign Willian (is this not backing him?). What else do you think the club should have done to back AVB?

 

[WhoopWhoop]

When a chairman clearly gets more pleasure from selling your best players for record fees than from actually
Competing on the pitch and winning trophies then it's fairly clear to me an alternative is needed.

 

[milo]

When a chairman clearly gets more pleasure from selling your best players for record fees than from actually
Competing on the pitch and winning trophies then it's fairly clear to me an alternative is needed.

Gets pleasure? How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

According to Greg Stobard and a few others the relationship between Levy and AVB soured pretty much immediately on him being appointed which was why we were happy for PSG to court him last summer. AVB fell out with loads of people at the club this season. That is not forming good working relationships and is the reason why he left the club. It was a similar story at Chelsea, was this Levys fault too?

As for the claim of a lack of support, the club brought in Baldini last summer, we tried to sign Willian (is this not backing him?). What else do you think the club should have done to back AVB?

I really didn't want this to be an AVB discussion at all.

 

[braineclipse]

When a chairman clearly gets more pleasure from selling your best players for record fees than from actually
Competing on the pitch and winning trophies then it's fairly clear to me an alternative is needed.

[citation needed]

 

[Raziel]

When a chairman clearly gets more pleasure from selling your best players for record fees than from actually
Competing on the pitch and winning trophies then it's fairly clear to me an alternative is needed.

I think you are mixing us up with the Scum (or are on WUM)

There is a big difference between taking pleasure in selling your best players vs. making sure that if your best players are sold, they are sold for the highest price (which gives you two things, the ability to attempt to replace, and discourage other teams from trying to disrupt us unless they accept they will be paying a premium).

 

[milo]

I really didn't want this to be an AVB discussion at all.

It's not an AVB discussion. It is a discussion about the reasons AVB left the club and you putting all of the blame for that on Levy whilst absolving AVB of any wrong doing.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It's not an AVB discussion. It is a discussion about the reasons AVB left the club and you putting all of the blame for that on Levy whilst absolving AVB of any wrong doing.

And you're absolving Levy, the top of the tree, the buck-stopper, of any wrong doing too.

This wasn't a discussion on the reasons AVB left the club. This wasn't a 'Levy should have given AVB more time' argument. I made a point that certain types of coaches are immediate change effectors and some clearly need more time to put something in place. That then got taken as me backing up my favourite AVB despite doing nothing of the sort. In that context, I wasn't saying one was better than the other.

But I'll say again, since we've come down this road, we are not some amazing top of the line highly sought after position in the life of AVB. He doesn't need to bend his will and compromise his ideas if they are so drastically different to the chairman. He can move on. He has considerable value in this sport. It's as much our job to make sure he can do the job he wants to do as it is his job to work for Levy, or he shouldn't be hired at all. And he shouldn't have been hired at all. The due dilligence was not carried out effectively or extensively enough.

And I can see why that made sound harsh towards Levy, and in some ways it is. But he is the guy at the top of the tree. When it goes wrong it's because he has gotten it wrong. That's what goes with being in that position. Especially when other clubs' chairman are going completely against the grain and getting it completely right. If AVB won the league last season or this then Levy should be hailed as a genius for appointing him. That he failed means Levy needs to take the blame for making the wrong hire. But he's getting none of it. Again, AVB is a valuable commodity in world football, with certain ideas that have made him successful and highly sought after. We are a perennial Europa-League participant that's been in the top European competition once in GHod knows how many years. AVB does not need to compromise too much to keep his job. We are not the best he will ever do.

 

[Raziel]

And you're absolving Levy, the top of the tree, the buck-stopper, of any wrong doing too.

But I'll say again, since we've come down this road, we are not some amazing top of the line highly sought after position in the life of AVB. He doesn't need to bend his will and compromise his ideas if they are so drastically different to the chairman. He can move on. He has considerable value in this sport. It's as much our job to make sure he can do the job he wants to do as it is his job to work for Levy, or he shouldn't be hired at all. And he shouldn't have been hired at all. The due dilligence was not carried out effectively or extensively enough.

And I can see why that made sound harsh towards Levy, and in some ways it is. But he is the guy at the top of the tree. When it goes wrong it's because he has gotten it wrong. That's what goes with being in that position. Especially when other clubs' chairman are going completely against the grain and getting it completely right. If AVB won the league last season or this then Levy should be hailed as a genius for appointing him. That he failed means Levy needs to take the blame for making the wrong hire. But he's getting none of it. Again, AVB is a valuable commodity in world football, with certain ideas that have made him successful and highly sought after. We are a perennial Europa-League participant that's been in the top European competition once in GHod knows how many years. AVB does not need to compromise too much to keep his job. We are not the best he will ever do.

Disagree ...

I think in hindsight, Spurs will probably the big job AVB failed at, don't think he's going to get a bigger club anytime soon, and don't think he'll be around in 15 years

Out of curiosity, who are these other club chairmen who are getting it so right by going against the grain?

 

[Ryan]

Disagree ...

I think in hindsight, Spurs will probably the big job AVB failed at, don't think he's going to get a bigger club anytime soon, and don't think he'll be around in 15 years

Out of curiosity, who are these other club chairmen who are getting it so right by going against the grain?

Pochettino is probably the stand out. Laudrup was fairly unexpected but fizzled out.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine have pretty much hired exclusively against the grain so there's that.....

 

[Baleforce]

I don't feel they owe us an answer but I'd love to know what ENIC's motivation is, what do they want us to be

 

[braineclipse]

And you're absolving Levy, the top of the tree, the buck-stopper, of any wrong doing too.

This wasn't a discussion on the reasons AVB left the club. This wasn't a 'Levy should have given AVB more time' argument. I made a point that certain types of coaches are immediate change effectors and some clearly need more time to put something in place. That then got taken as me backing up my favourite AVB despite doing nothing of the sort. In that context, I wasn't saying one was better than the other.

But I'll say again, since we've come down this road, we are not some amazing top of the line highly sought after position in the life of AVB. He doesn't need to bend his will and compromise his ideas if they are so drastically different to the chairman. He can move on. He has considerable value in this sport. It's as much our job to make sure he can do the job he wants to do as it is his job to work for Levy, or he shouldn't be hired at all. And he shouldn't have been hired at all. The due dilligence was not carried out effectively or extensively enough.

And I can see why that made sound harsh towards Levy, and in some ways it is. But he is the guy at the top of the tree. When it goes wrong it's because he has gotten it wrong. That's what goes with being in that position. Especially when other clubs' chairman are going completely against the grain and getting it completely right. If AVB won the league last season or this then Levy should be hailed as a genius for appointing him. That he failed means Levy needs to take the blame for making the wrong hire. But he's getting none of it. Again, AVB is a valuable commodity in world football, with certain ideas that have made him successful and highly sought after. We are a perennial Europa-League participant that's been in the top European competition once in GHod knows how many years. AVB does not need to compromise too much to keep his job. We are not the best he will ever do.

19 other clubs in the Premier League. 24 Championship clubs where probably at least half are 1-2 good/lucky managerial decisions away from a promotion.

That's a lot of other clubs, a lot of other chairmen. Just by pure chance some of those will be getting one, two, perhaps three big managerial decisions right in a row and look really brilliant.

This is similar to the "why didn't we sign X striker?" when someone is on a hot streak.

I also disagree completely that Levy is getting "none of" the blame for making the wrong hire. Seriously, do you see the title of the thread you just wrote that sentence in?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

19 other clubs in the Premier League. 24 Championship clubs where probably at least half are 1-2 good/lucky managerial decisions away from a promotion.

That's a lot of other clubs, a lot of other chairmen. Just by pure chance some of those will be getting one, two, perhaps three big managerial decisions right in a row and look really brilliant.

This is similar to the "why didn't we sign X striker?" when someone is on a hot streak.

I also disagree completely that Levy is getting "none of" the blame for making the wrong hire. Seriously, do you see the title of the thread you just wrote that sentence in?

On your last line, he's getting none of it from a select few posters who seem to be scared of apportioning any blame to Levy whatsoever, at the same time as saying I'll only make an argument that backs up a pre-conceived view, or because it backs up my favourite or something. Not realising that it goes the other way.

This is not similar at all. We are talking about the chairman of our club making the right managerial appointment, and not allowing AN ENTIRE SEASON to be wasted because the wrong one was made. To shrug and say 'meh, they all get it wrong from time to time'...it blows my mind that people will do this but level all sorts of criticism at anyone else but Levy.

 

[braineclipse]

On your last line, he's getting none of it from a select few posters who seem to be scared of apportioning any blame to Levy whatsoever, at the same time as saying I'll only make an argument that backs up a pre-conceived view, or because it backs up my favourite or something. Not realising that it goes the other way.

This is not similar at all. We are talking about the chairman of our club making the right managerial appointment, and not allowing AN ENTIRE SEASON to be wasted because the wrong one was made. To shrug and say 'meh, they all get it wrong from time to time'...it blows my mind that people will do this but level all sorts of criticism at anyone else but Levy.

Why is this surprising to you? Some people rate Levy very highly, most likely that means that they find explanations for his mistakes that go beyond him and his flaws whatever they may be.

Managerial decisions by their nature will have season long or longer ramifications. They do all get it wrong from time to time, I think that's factual, do you disagree?

Most people seem willing to aim criticism at Levy. You have reached a point where your criticism of him is such that you want him gone, but in a debate with you about if he should go or not would you really expect someone that still rates him highly and wants him to stay to bring up old criticisms they've had with him in the past?

Edit: And what seemed to spark the AVB part of the discussion was this paragraph you wrote: " To me AVB is a guy that would be able to build a club and has a specific idea on a way of playing, but needs time to build it when a club hasn't been prepared like it before. So for AVB to be a success he needs a lot of backing in the sense that I believe Cortese gave MP. But Levy wants the coach to be expendable, and for the power to be with him and the DOF."

If you think writing that won't spark an AVB side-discussion, well, you'd obviously be wrong.

 

[braineclipse]

Reading back to see where the AVB part of the discussion started I re-read this post. Just wanted to quote it as it deserved being on another page. Agree fully Jordinho.

It's possible to not be in complete agreement with Levy on everything he does without jumping on the 'He's the Devil' band wagon.

'He didn't appoint the manager I wanted'
'He didn't sign that player I wanted'
'He signed that player I really didn't want'
'He keeps dragging things out'
'We overpaid'.
'He sacked this guy too soon'
'He didn't sack that other guy soon enough'

I would say 99% of the complaints are born out of either impatience or just pure ignorance of what running a football club actually requires.

Overall his performance as chairman is somewhere between very good and great. There will always be room for improvement, but getting hung up on minor flaws to the point where you want him gone? Good grief.

For me, even when I've disagreed with Levy and even more importantly whenever decisions Levy made haven't worked out at the very least I've been able to see that his decisions seemed rational at the time and that there's reasoning behind what he does.

He seems like a very rational operator, that means a lot to me. Yes he gets things wrong, but in a game of very limited information like I think his job is that doesn't surprise me. And expecting him not have made several major "hindsight mistakes" after this long in charge of the club is expecting way too much imo.

 

[DTA]

Reading back to see where the AVB part of the discussion started I re-read this post. Just wanted to quote it as it deserved being on another page. Agree fully Jordinho.



For me, even when I've disagreed with Levy and even more importantly whenever decisions Levy made haven't worked out at the very least I've been able to see that his decisions seemed rational at the time and that there's reasoning behind what he does.

He seems like a very rational operator, that means a lot to me. Yes he gets things wrong, but in a game of very limited information like I think his job is that doesn't surprise me. And expecting him not have made several major "hindsight mistakes" after this long in charge of the club is expecting way too much imo.

Completely agree

 

[metalgear]

hahaha....we're a shambles ... Levy really needs to get this ship in order.

 

[milo]

And you're absolving Levy, the top of the tree, the buck-stopper, of any wrong doing too.

This wasn't a discussion on the reasons AVB left the club. This wasn't a 'Levy should have given AVB more time' argument. I made a point that certain types of coaches are immediate change effectors and some clearly need more time to put something in place. That then got taken as me backing up my favourite AVB despite doing nothing of the sort. In that context, I wasn't saying one was better than the other.

But I'll say again, since we've come down this road, we are not some amazing top of the line highly sought after position in the life of AVB. He doesn't need to bend his will and compromise his ideas if they are so drastically different to the chairman. He can move on. He has considerable value in this sport. It's as much our job to make sure he can do the job he wants to do as it is his job to work for Levy, or he shouldn't be hired at all. And he shouldn't have been hired at all. The due dilligence was not carried out effectively or extensively enough.

And I can see why that made sound harsh towards Levy, and in some ways it is. But he is the guy at the top of the tree. When it goes wrong it's because he has gotten it wrong. That's what goes with being in that position. Especially when other clubs' chairman are going completely against the grain and getting it completely right. If AVB won the league last season or this then Levy should be hailed as a genius for appointing him. That he failed means Levy needs to take the blame for making the wrong hire. But he's getting none of it. Again, AVB is a valuable commodity in world football, with certain ideas that have made him successful and highly sought after. We are a perennial Europa-League participant that's been in the top European competition once in GHod knows how many years. AVB does not need to compromise too much to keep his job. We are not the best he will ever do.

I'm not absolving Levy of any blame. I have been critical of him many times and will continue to criticise his mistakes but on balance, I think that he has done a good job at Spurs. I think that the gulf between us and the clubs above us is primarily a financial one and not a decision making one.

If we go back to AVB one last time. This season AVB fell out with Levy, Baldini, Freund, Adebayor and the medical team. How can Levy to be to blame for any of these apart from the first one?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Why is this surprising to you? Some people rate Levy very highly, most likely that means that they find explanations for his mistakes that go beyond him and his flaws whatever they may be.

Sooooo...it's fine to do exactly what people claim I'm doing with AVB, when Levy is the one being defended?

Managerial decisions by their nature will have season long or longer ramifications. They do all get it wrong from time to time, I think that's factual, do you disagree?

Of course it's factual. And were this the first season wasted due to a Levy managerial decision I'd be more inclined to forgive. It's not though.

Most people seem willing to aim criticism at Levy. You have reached a point where your criticism of him is such that you want him gone, but in a debate with you about if he should go or not would you really expect someone that still rates him highly and wants him to stay to bring up old criticisms they've had with him in the past?

Again, people accuse me of doing everything I can to shield AVB from blame when you're advocating doing exactly that for Levy because, well just because.

Edit: And what seemed to spark the AVB part of the discussion was this paragraph you wrote: " To me AVB is a guy that would be able to build a club and has a specific idea on a way of playing, but needs time to build it when a club hasn't been prepared like it before. So for AVB to be a success he needs a lot of backing in the sense that I believe Cortese gave MP. But Levy wants the coach to be expendable, and for the power to be with him and the DOF."

If you think writing that won't spark an AVB side-discussion, well, you'd obviously be wrong.

The crux of my post was to do with types of coaches. I really didn't want it to turn into the 'AVB is a social depart' stuff it then became. The point there wasn't even the criticism of Levy, the coach being expendable is just what he wants...so that if they leave continuity is maintained. And you know that. But it's turned into this AVB debate again whereby I get accused of doing everything I can to defend my favourite as if that's a bad thing, when everyone can defend Levy regardless just because he's Levy. Lame.

Bah.