Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Robspur12]

Most teams I see that succeed at outperforming their financial limitations over some time seem to do so with a pretty clearly defined system/philosophy. This seems to be the best way to get players to perform at a level that's higher than the sum of their parts might indicate. Usually this takes time to implement.

Look at the changes in personnel and style in 18 months since the Sherwood. Look at how young our team is. Look at the relative success in terms of results last season.

To me this very clearly points towards patience rather than impatience.

Can I double like a post. Nice one brain.

 

[milo]

Great post mate and sums it up in a nutshell, some of the moans about where we are going wrong are hogwash ( imo).

What I find weird is that people reach for the same solutions every time, no matter what is happening on the pitch. The answer to every set back is natural wingers and abandoning 4-2-3-1. I am amazed that no manager has cottoned onto this by now.

 

[Pirate55]

What I find weird is that people reach for the same solutions every time, no matter what is happening on the pitch. The answer to every set back is natural wingers and abandoning 4-2-3-1. I am amazed that no manager has cottoned onto this by now.

Maybe that is because now we have evolved into more a 4141. With Dier a dedicated DM, it enables our other CM much more attacking freedom, which plays perfectly into Mason and Alli's principal strengths.

 

[milo]

Maybe that is because now we have evolved into more a 4141. With Dier a dedicated DM, it enables our other CM much more attacking freedom, which plays perfectly into Mason and Alli's principal strengths.

We have always seen players pushing forward from central midfield under Poch, Mason did it plenty last season and although Dier's partners this season have had more freedom to push on, I still think that they are playing at the base of midfield rather than us having four behind the striker.

 

[Pirate55]

We have always seen players pushing forward from central midfield under Poch, Mason did it plenty last season and although Dier's partners this season have had more freedom to push on, I still think that they are playing at the base of midfield rather than us having four behind the striker.

It's a subtle nuance but significant IMO. Last season, Mason or Bentaleb didn't get forward nearly often enough - and also they weren't effective back four shields. By playing a dedicated DM, this flexibility is now enabled. Dembele's particular attributes should only be necessary against the top teams in defence otherwise he should play further forward to high press the lesser teams up the park.

 

[milo]

It's a subtle nuance but significant IMO. Last season, Mason or Bentaleb didn't get forward nearly often enough - and also they weren't effective back four shields. By playing a dedicated DM, this flexibility is now enabled. Dembele's particular attributes should only be necessary against the top teams in defence otherwise he should play further forward to high press the lesser teams up the park.

I think that the passing chalkboards on the Dembele thread show that Alli and Mason have played at the base of midfield this season. I think that if we looked at one for Mason last season, it would show him taking up similar positions. The difference would be that him and Bentaleb split pushing on and sticking.

 

[Pirate55]

I think that the passing chalkboards on the Dembele thread show that Alli and Mason have played at the base of midfield this season. I think that if we looked at one for Mason last season, it would show him taking up similar positions. The difference would be that him and Bentaleb split pushing on and sticking.

And therein lies the rub. By splitting it, neither were great at either function. Evidenced by the lack of goals they scored or even assisted last season and how open we were at the back.

 

[Modric THFC]

4 wins in 13 games this season.
AVB got 8 wins in his last 13 games before he was sacked.

 

[billyiddo]

4 wins in 13 games this season.
AVB got 8 wins in his last 13 games before he was sacked.

A good example of how not to use a single stat to paint a picture

 

[Modric THFC]

A good example of how not to use a single stat to paint a picture

Shows the difference in expectation levels.

Poch's record in the last 13 games is worse than AVB's last 13 and Sherwood's last 13.

 

[Robspur12]

Shows the difference in expectation levels.

Poch's record in the last 13 games is worse than AVB's last 13 and Sherwood's last 13.

AVB and Tim also got spanked by Emirates Marketing Project and Liverpool after having spent 100million and we looked clueless. Whereas Poch has spent about half of that and taken 4 points off those 2. For me that is far more meaningful. We have become much harder to beat. The points will come.

 

[billyiddo]

Shows the difference in expectation levels.

Poch's record in the last 13 games is worse than AVB's last 13 and Sherwood's last 13.

No, it doesn't show anything of the sort, all it shows is that on paper over 13 games across 3(?) different compeitions we have a worse return than the previous 2 coaches had in their last run of games. Expectations are roughly the same and if anything with the league shaping up how it is early on the expectations on this squad after the last run of games could in fact be a little higher than when Sherwood and AVB were seeing off the final game of their 13 match run, which somewhat proves the point that looking at this one stat in particular in isolation tells you nothing

 

[thfcsteff]

That may be Poch's and the club's biggest challenge this season ...

Yes, it would be great if he could have even a close-to-full-strength squad for even one month this season. I am interested to see where Pritchard fits in, as I feel Poch really wanted to bring him in much earlier and be done with Townsend/get money for him (just a feeling BTW absolutely no ITK whatsoever)...been really interesting watching Bentaleb's injury really impact his season too, as he suddenly has a real fight on his hands for a place; will be interesting to see his response, as he has top class talent but now there's a fight on.

 

[Modric THFC]

Its not one stat in isolation. Compare Poch's results with Sherwood's and AVB's in whatever way you want and you'll find Poch has done worse than them.
Looking at the league Poch has a really poor 1.55 points per game this season. He ended up with 1.68 last year.
Sherwood had 1.91 during his mess.
AVB had 1.69 the season he was sacked and 1.89 the season before.

Poch has been given slack because of the reduced expectations around the club.

 

[billyiddo]

Its not one stat in isolation. Compare Poch's results with Sherwood's and AVB's in whatever way you want and you'll find Poch has done worse than them.
Looking at the league Poch has a really poor 1.55 points per game this season. He ended up with 1.68 last year.
Sherwood had 1.91 during his mess.
AVB had 1.69 the season he was sacked and 1.89 the season before.

Poch has been given slack because of the reduced expectations around the club.

The record over the last 13 games tells you nothing other than how each manager fared in a select run of games, it is one stat, no other way to dress it up mate - Poch doesn't need slack because regardless of how he has fared on paper over an arbitory run of games he is actually doing a good job overall.

 

[Robspur12]

Its not one stat in isolation. Compare Poch's results with Sherwood's and AVB's in whatever way you want and you'll find Poch has done worse than them.
Looking at the league Poch has a really poor 1.55 points per game this season. He ended up with 1.68 last year.
Sherwood had 1.91 during his mess.
AVB had 1.69 the season he was sacked and 1.89 the season before.

Poch has been given slack because of the reduced expectations around the club.

I think you should disregard AVB's first season as he was able to play one of the world's top players in the form of his life. So compare AVB' second season and Tim's few months in charge, with Poch. While the points per game ratio was better, when we faced the top 4 we were smashed out of sight. That could not continue if we want to progress in the long term. Poch has arrested this and is building the team that he wants. We are harder to beat. We have lost one league game all season. We have a very good defensive record and it is being built on solid footings whereas with Tim and AVB it felt like it was built on sand. Our resilience coupled with the age of the team makes the building process feel more sustainable. That's why I have faith in Poch and I believe the points will come especially when we get the likes of Son, bentaleb and mason back from injury.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What I find weird is that people reach for the same solutions every time, no matter what is happening on the pitch. The answer to every set back is natural wingers and abandoning 4-2-3-1. I am amazed that no manager has cottoned onto this by now.

I'm amazed too but the when a manager gets in reality about 5 minutes and rarely their own players at any club it's not really a surprise that so few change systems

All systems work if they utilised correctly and all have weaknesses too. The biggest issue is when you try to force players Into a system that doesn't suit them. We're coming out of that now and we would be mad to do anything differently

We have to back Poch 100% across the club and I genuinely think that apart from a minority that's the case. It certainly felt like that at Anderlecht for example where most people I spoke to out there agreed that the team was more than good enough but simply didn't play. It's not like the last where we played a weakened team so Poch deserves less stick and some merit for that although ultimately he is responsible for player motivation which was a big issue in that game for me

 

[milo]

And therein lies the rub. By splitting it, neither were great at either function. Evidenced by the lack of goals they scored or even assisted last season and how open we were at the back.

I am not sure what you are getting at or maybe you are just changing the subject. Have we scored more goals from central midfield this season than we did last?

What we were talking about positions being taken up by the players at the base of midfield. The only difference I see is that we have more of a designated sitter this year but they are still mainly playing level with either side of the centre circle whereas the attacking players are in the final third.

 

[metalgear]

AVB and Tim also got spanked by Emirates Marketing Project and Liverpool after having spent 100million and we looked clueless. Whereas Poch has spent about half of that and taken 4 points off those 2. For me that is far more meaningful. We have become much harder to beat. The points will come.

Cant be beaten versus cant score to win games. It could go either ways, and i am expecting that as we throw more resources into attack, we will concede more goals.

 

[Hemant]

So while comparing most managers to lemmings going over a cliff you point out that most managers are not stupid?

And while complaining about how people blindly support Poch and his system you claim that the benefits to the system you prefer are inherent?

I was comparing the use of numbers not managers. 99% was made up, my 100 % was also made up, what's that got to do with managers?
Where did I say which system I prefer?