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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

BrainOfLevy said:
Just think of it this way: do you think Poch’s personal preference would be to drop players he’s been keen to move out of the club for 2 years now? Players that clearly aren’t performing? I think someone who we know Poch to be would want them out of the team as quickly as possible.

But, he is also a leader. He is pragmatic, and he isn’t going to be a Sherwood that slags the players off in the post game and he is going to look out for the players overall. I repeat the Eriksen example: he stays at Spurs, and the benefit should be that we have a good player in our squad, more depth. Or we bomb him out. Meaning we don’t get any money for him, or the benefit of having him around for depth. Is he being that disruptive that bombing him out is guaranteed to be better for us than having him around? The answer to that question is not a simple one.

Similarly, with Toby, with Rose. These players form the core of the leadership in the squad and have done for a few years now. Bombing them out too soon when these players don’t have a route out the club just may accelerate the bad feeling, and we need the players. They are part of the squad. Playing them allows us to protect the condition of other players. Davies has been returning from injury so we have needed Rose. What if there were injuries to others? Do we just over promote youth when we have experienced players in the squad? If you bomb them too soon, you can’t bring them back when you may end up needing them. And you can’t just make all of them back ups when they are the leaders of this group, so they need to be involved.

This will not be Poch’s ideal world. I expect he will bomb them the first chance he gets. I expect he will try to make January moves out as easy as possible. He waited until around November to do the same in his first season. But until then, he’s going to be pragmatic, and he’s going to use them, and it’s going to be about protecting the condition of the players that he does want to be here long term as much as anything, and not overusing youth players too soon.

Either way, this season may be tough. I expect it to get better as we phase the new players in. But overall this is the difficulty of making no moves in or out over so many windows and storing these problems up. We will ultimately be fine, but I wish our fan base would appreciate the complex nuances of managing a squad. What seems obvious isn’t actually obvious. Of course he wants to bomb certain players out. He’s wanted to do it for years. This is not news for him.

(Also, note - fans are insinuating he’s using AVB style language against them, which if you read his full quotes he isn’t actually doing at all.)
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I case in point yesterday.

People were like 'wtf' about bringing Sanchez off, mainly as hes one of the ones staying.

But in the context of yesterday's game, if Poch wants to bring on another forward player for one of the CHs and the plan is to dominate possession in the second half and to add Sanchez was already on a yellow card....Sanchez is the pick every time. Jan and Toby are far superior ball players (not that Toby was showing much of it yesterday)
 
Raziel said:
If anyone doesn't understand what is going on here, they need to watch our game and the Everton game back to back.

- Both in same situation, underperforming clubs, manager under pressure, home game.

In one game (not ours) the team turns out and from the beginning to the end goes at it, they are playing for their manager's job. In the other, fall behind and take about 80 mins to wake up.
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I'd never use Everton as a yardstick, they're flaky as f.ck. Next week they'll be back to some unexplained pee poor performance just as they have many other weeks this season.

Yesterday, was for them, probably a bit like our Palace win.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I'd never use Everton as a yardstick, they're flaky as f.ck. Next week they'll be back to some unexplained pee poor performance just as they have many other weeks this season.

Yesterday, was for them, probably a bit like our Palace win.
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Fair point, but to me watching the games

- They had effort without a lot of quality (if they had our front 2/3 they would have won that game by 5+)
- We have quality with coordination (I don't want to say effort because some are trying), we just don't seem to know what to do.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I also think a lot of people are saying ‘Levy knows the cost of missing out on the CL’ but I would venture that he hasn’t built our club in any sort of footing that means we need CL football. He prefers a sensible footing that allows him to be in charge of a strategy that isn’t predicated on results than can swing.

I think this may be a tough season, certainly we will have had a tough couple of months at least. Does it mean the axe is going to fall - I’m not sure it does, not when the Manager has been the one predicting these problems for a while. Long term, Poch or another is going to have to conduct the surgery that this squad needs having gone so many windows without it. What guarantees that Allegri or Mourinho or Eddie Howe does any better with it?
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Mate, as much as Poch is a decent manager, pretty much anyone could do better than a close to 50% lose ratio with this squad.
 
Raziel said:
Fair point, but to me watching the games

- They had effort without a lot of quality (if they had our front 2/3 they would have won that game by 5+)
- We have quality with coordination (I don't want to say effort because some are trying), we just don't seem to know what to do.
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Oh 100%. Desire was there from Everton and really put pressure on West Ham when they did and didn't have the ball. Much like Brighton wonderfully did to us at the Amex.

Of course, that used to be us. Some of our crew are trying Winks, Sissoko, Lamela,Moura, sonny, Kane but it s not coordinated. And yes we end up with spells of possession but we're clueless what to do with it beyond basic (sideways) passing patterns. Are we playing with pressure now? Are we playing with no confidence? The NON trying of anything risky, elaborate, or plain sexy, all within reach of the players we have is worrying/telling.

Of course, this is all backed up by the blancmanche like defending of the back 4/5, that goal yesterday was woeful...full of 'i just don't really care' thought patterns. If you're gonna be letting them in like that, you're gonna need to be firing in the other direction. And as I said above, we're not.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Of course, this is all backed up by the blancmanche like defending of the back 4/5, that goal yesterday was woeful...full of 'i just don't really care' thought patterns. If you're gonna be letting them in like that, you're gonna need to be firing in the other direction. And as I said above, we're not.
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Problem is that some of this is brought on ourselves. We have two CBs who can speak to other clubs in c.10 weeks given that we haven't secured them on longer deals - they're hardly going to be motivated and dying for the cause. Why risk injury and thereby blow up their chances of a big fat contract with their next team? Add to that both are full backs yesterday were available to be sold last summer - again, not exactly a commitment from the club to them, so why should we expect them to be committed to us?

It not really surprising to me that we're not playing as a tight-knit unit and come across as there being zero team spirit
 
billyiddo said:
My position remains the same - i back him until a time there's all out mutiny or relegation becomes a realistic outcome. You can refer back to this post after every game to save yourself the bother of asking me each time ;)

What i will say is between the Watford and Brighton games there doesn't seem to be many players playing for the team/manager/eachother - which renders all tactical discussions irrelevant imo. something has to give one way or the other
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What is all out mutiny though, 8 or 9 players barely bothering to run or make a tackle must make us part way there. Granted none have given outspoken interviews of late but the lack of effort is clearly there and something has to give sooner or later and unfortunately it tends to be the managers because it's easier to replace them then it is a squad.

I am in agreement to give him some more time though, he has identified a while back that the squad needed revamping and even if he left that would still be the case so in my view Poch has earned the right to have the opportunity to do the revamping but he also has to turn performances around (I can accept losing when the performance is good).

If we get lose in midweek then get a tonking at Liverpool then I fear the fans will turn on him and once that happens there's really no way back.
 
After being at Spurs for 5 years, Pochettino is the longest serving Spurs manager since Burkinshaw (8 years) 1976-1984. But unlike Burkinshaw who won 2 FA Cups and 1 UEFA Cup, Pochettino has not won any trophies for us. Pochettino's record at Spurs will show PL runners-up, League Cup runners-up, CL runners-up and 2 FA Cup semi finals. He came close but just couldn't make the step further to make the finishing touch. Unless Pochettino go on to win a trophy for us after this, history books won't forgive him for failing to win any trophies for us. Just like Pleat in 1987, Pochettino will be called a "nearly man" of football for coming close but failing when it really mattered most !
 
Raziel said:
Mate, as much as Poch is a decent manager, pretty much anyone could do better than a close to 50% lose ratio with this squad.
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Well sure, and if Poch went into United for example, I’d bet he could have lead them to a better start to the season. And Solksjaer was able to better the run Jose was on for a time too, like anyone should have been able to. The point is, if you devoid any situation of context, you can make any argument you want.

In our case, we also made the CL final in the time that we’ve had a poor League run. At the end of a season in which we had most of our squad pretty much have zero pre season for getting to the end of the WC. We also made one of the best starts we’ve ever made, probably because we took advantage of conditioning that had never faded due to them getting there. As such, I would always have expected our late season form to not be as good as our early season form, and looking back I can see that as being entirely reasonable. I also think given the emotional exertion of making that final, it was bound to bleed into League results. It often happens to other clubs, and given the squad was on its last legs, I’m not surprised it happened to us too.

We’ve also stored up problems by not many any moves for multiple windows. Which is why I’m not convinced a new Manager is exactly what we need. If I am being sympathetic to these players, I can see that they have given a lot - over achieving despite lower wages and no home stadium, and it may well have caught up with a few of them. They want a change. A new Manager has that same problem and while it may provide a short term boost with a new voice, Sherwood did the same and I’m not sure that long term of strategically it puts us on a better path.

I’m not denying we need changes. What I do think though is that it doesn’t always have to be the Manager, particularly in this context when it is obvious a core group of players want out. And when we attained a relative level of success by getting the whole club on the same page - which allowed all of Poch, players and Levy to flourish. We need to get back to that point. We have also built a club around Poch’s long term strategy, to rip it up isn’t easy. We’ve also been allowing him to make decisions for the long term, in the idea he is going to be sticking around. Not rushing players back, not being under too much pressure short term. It is not easy to throw him away, nor an obvious win.
 
monkeybarry said:
@P.D.
I think I'd rather there were some outspoken interviews. At least that shows some kind of desire.
At the minute it's just a load of players coasting and waiting for Jan/next summer.
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And then we become West Ham. Who put things into the media to play to the fans but that don’t actually serve their interests that well at all.

People should trust that Poch knows exactly what he wants to do. I’d bet my house he wants to bomb certain players out. But he also knows he’s a leader and can’t do it just yet.
 
monkeybarry said:
@P.D.
I think I'd rather there were some outspoken interviews. At least that shows some kind of desire.
At the minute it's just a load of players coasting and waiting for Jan/next summer.
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I don't. Having our manager embarrass us in the press is unprofessional enough without the players lowering themselves to that level.

They arent playing for him anymore. That's a strong enough statement in itself.

BrainOfLevy said:
And then we become West Ham. Who put things into the media to play to the fans but that don’t actually serve their interests that well at all.

People should trust that Poch knows exactly what he wants to do. I’d bet my house he wants to bomb certain players out. But he also knows he’s a leader and can’t do it just yet.
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The problem is that he's not a leader and he's shown that over the last few months. A leader gives clear messages, Poch has done nothing but confuse. A leader is strong when things are tough, Poch has become negative and looked weak. A leader thinks logically and appeals to the emotions of those who follow. Poch gets bogged down in emotion and other superstitious nonsense.

He's a one trick pony and the players are no longer buying into his impressive trick. He's a busted flush.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Well sure, and if Poch went into United for example, I’d bet he could have lead them to a better start to the season. And Solksjaer was able to better the run Jose was on for a time too, like anyone should have been able to. The point is, if you devoid any situation of context, you can make any argument you want.

In our case, we also made the CL final in the time that we’ve had a poor League run. At the end of a season in which we had most of our squad pretty much have zero pre season for getting to the end of the WC. We also made one of the best starts we’ve ever made, probably because we took advantage of conditioning that had never faded due to them getting there. As such, I would always have expected our late season form to not be as good as our early season form, and looking back I can see that as being entirely reasonable. I also think given the emotional exertion of making that final, it was bound to bleed into League results. It often happens to other clubs, and given the squad was on its last legs, I’m not surprised it happened to us too.

We’ve also stored up problems by not many any moves for multiple windows. Which is why I’m not convinced a new Manager is exactly what we need. If I am being sympathetic to these players, I can see that they have given a lot - over achieving despite lower wages and no home stadium, and it may well have caught up with a few of them. They want a change. A new Manager has that same problem and while it may provide a short term boost with a new voice, Sherwood did the same and I’m not sure that long term of strategically it puts us on a better path.

I’m not denying we need changes. What I do think though is that it doesn’t always have to be the Manager, particularly in this context when it is obvious a core group of players want out. And when we attained a relative level of success by getting the whole club on the same page - which allowed all of Poch, players and Levy to flourish. We need to get back to that point. We have also built a club around Poch’s long term strategy, to rip it up isn’t easy. We’ve also been allowing him to make decisions for the long term, in the idea he is going to be sticking around. Not rushing players back, not being under too much pressure short term. It is not easy to throw him away, nor an obvious win.
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42 games mate, he's had more than a season.

I just need to see something from Poch that shows he's got something more to his playbook than take 22 year old players and outrun the opposition (it doesn't scale to the top)

We were worried when the choice was made for Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB and now Poch .. the club will survive and likely do better (the base lifts each time)
 
Raziel said:
42 games mate, he's had more than a season.

I just need to see something from Poch that shows he's got something more to his playbook than take 22 year old players and outrun the opposition (it doesn't scale to the top)

We were worried when the choice was made for Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB and now Poch .. the club will survive and likely do better (the base lifts each time)
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I think your doing Poch a massive disservice

what he excels at is creating fit, hungry players who can play in multiple systems he has

He doesn’t do well with egos and possibly mature players (being immature)

He has some odd philosophy’s on people that some love and some hate....

Spurs have given him a global platform that to date he has thrived in whilst not getting us over the line with trophies (in an era of crazy money being spent on the game)

His training, pressing philosophy and team set up has been mirrored by a lot of teams now and some have excelled at just that against us (Brighton did us playing that way)

the key for him and us is what’s next

his comments about leaving after the CL final I genuinely believe laid down a marker and an excuse possibly for some players to move on

it’s the reason why I think that after a “miracle season” we have so many players wanting to go
 
Raziel said:
I just need to see something from Poch that shows he's got something more to his playbook than take 22 year old players and outrun the opposition (it doesn't scale to the top)
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This is it for me, at the moment he’s looking like he’s got no ideas - the benching of the Dombele yesterday was bizarre and showed to me he has no idea how to use him.

He’s showing no idea how to fix it and what ever he is selling the players are not buying and it’s not just the players in the last year of the contract.

If you could see signs of improvement, anything I would be backing him fully - but there is none and he’s making the same mistakes, picking the same players and weird formations tactics.

It does maybe seem he may struggle with big name players?

He’s in danger of ruining his legacy here.
 
Lot of panic and over reaction by some fans is not surprising we have been on a upward climb over the last 4/5 years and this is our first real stumble. Its the same at all clubs and although it is not surprising its is sad to see here.

Do not get me wrong i am as unhappy as most fans with some of our performances this season but we are in a different situation then when we pulled the plug on the likes of "rent a quote" AVB and Ramos. We have come a long way since Poch arrived here and if any fan think different then they are not focusing on just how far we have come.

What concerns me more then anything is the pace of our play, there has been a lot of bitching by some fans about the formations we have played but in all honesty that is not the biggest problem, and some fans are blaming them for our run is over estimating that part of the game. IMO

The players are ( looking) unfit ( which i find hard to believe) or are not really trying to be progressive. Now who is to blame for that is the million dollar question and i am not convince d that is the managers fault.

To many of our players ( seem) to be going through the motions rather then trying to make things happen, included in that ( imo) are Rose ( who should be no where near the first team) Toby who has regressed more then any of our players ( imo) Kane what has happened to him? he is a shadow of the player he has been over the last few years, i am sure there are others but they seem to be our biggest concern.

As for Poch? well as i have said before he has done enough over the last few years to be given the benefit of the doubt and i would HOPE he will get to the end of the season before we get back into the habit of sacking managers.

As for the game yesterday i thought we were a lot better in the second half after the change at half time, and i hope changes are made in the team over the next few weeks. For me Davies has to come in for Rose, Toby should be dropped and Sanchez should be picked over him going forward, Foyth should be given a run of games at RB as well. That would give us three changes in the back four ( i would keep Jan there) and would ( imo) strengthen our defense.

Alli looked like he is recovering some of his form yesterday so would hope he starts to show how good he is, for me Dier HAS to play. I understand that some fans have lost patience with Poch but i see not real gain in making changes so soon into the season.
 
@parklane1
Completely agree re: the team selections you have stated. And that is the reason I am doubting Poch - does he have the cojones or the wherewithal (excuse for not knowing the Spanish for that!) to do it?
It's not looking like it.
 
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