Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Baleforce]

OK. Its obviously completely hypothetical given that no side of that argument can prove it. From my perspective, after 1 win in 6 games we're at the point where a couple poor results sees us in say 7th/8th type area in the PL. I think at that point the drudgery of our football would cause the crowd to turn and the atmosphere would get worse and worse

I really do think things are on a knife-edge with Jose, but he'll get more time given the lack of crowds at games

Is there a drudgery to our games, xG and “big chance creation ” are both good?

 

[parklane1]

Some have, some haven't. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I'd like to believe that Jose can succeed, but if I had to put money on it I'd say that he won't be our manager at the end of this calendar year.

If he gets top 4 this year I think he'll be our manager into 2022 (get into the CL, spend a bit more £££, probably get through the group etc). Without top 4, it depends on the football and results next season....and I think we'll be somewhat similar to this season, unless we spend big (which I doubt we will). (Obviously if we miss top 4 by a distance, Jose might not see next season)

I'm not sure winning a cup this year makes a difference - if the football next season is crap and we're say 7th in Nov/Dec, then I think Levy would act irrespective of whether we win a trophy this season

I can understand where you are over this and i accept that fans are not happy so far, but its way to early to change managers ( not saying you are) but there are some who probably made up their minds the minute he walked through the door that they did not want him here.

How many managers have we had since we sacked MJ ( too many imo) and during that time what have we won?. The one thing we do know about Jose is that he is a serial winner and i am sure he will do the same here, but unlike some i do not think it can be overnight.

Now i know some fans will say its been a year but if you look at what has happened during that year with Covid and everything that happened, football suspended, players being ill etc, the team was a mess with players looking like they had downed tools under Poch. If he gets us a trophy this year and into the top four i dare say most fans will be happy, or at least i would hope they will.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

That's what GG is for

Who is GG?

 

[thfcsteff]

Who is GG?

he must mean Ge**** Gra**m...the giant fudging clam. GG that is!

 

[AdamB]

Is there a drudgery to our games, xG and “big chance creation ” are both good?

I'm not bought into the xG thing given I don't know hw its calculated. All I can say on the drudgery point is what I see with my eyes - we're not exciting or interesting to watch. In my view, our games are dull. As I said elsewhere, when I've watched lesser teams like Villa, Leicester and Southampton they've been more exciting than us.

 

[AdamB]

I can understand where you are over this and i accept that fans are not happy so far, but its way to early to change managers ( not saying you are) but there are some who probably made up their minds the minute he walked through the door that they did not want him here.

How many managers have we had since we sacked MJ ( too many imo) and during that time what have we won?. The one thing we do know about Jose is that he is a serial winner and i am sure he will do the same here, but unlike some i do not think it can be overnight.

Now i know I think that I am a better football fan than the rest of you will say its been a year but if you look at what has happened during that year with Covid and everything that happened, football suspended, players being ill etc, the team was a mess with players looking like they had downed tools under Poch. If he gets us a trophy this year and into the top four i dare say most fans will be happy, or at least i would hope they will.

So I think you are where I am. Your closing sentence is right, and that would see Jose probably survive all next season (we'd get a decent CL group, probably get through it and therefore still have optimism moving before xmas next year) and he'd get more cash to spend in the summer.

Its the scenario where he doesnt get top 4 (and we're probably more likely to finish outside top 4 than in the top 4 IMO) where the wheels have the potential to come off. We wouldnt spend as much in the summer making us less competitive next season, and if he's say 7th come Nov/Dec, atmosphere at games would be toxic and he'd be toast

Related to this, I was wondering whether Jose's tactics only work with really top class players, rather than just the very good players we have? Top class players can cover mistakes, might be more disciplined, will win 1:1s with their opponents and generally make the make the tactics look good, in a way which our level of players cannot do so?

 

[Bishop]

Is there a drudgery to our games, xG and “big chance creation ” are both good?

Do you care about the quality of the football you watch or just the stats because if it's just the stats then why not just watch the result at the end and not bother watching the game in progress. It won't make any difference for you.

Related to this, I was wondering whether Jose's tactics only work with really top class players, rather than just the very good players we have? Top class players can cover mistakes, might be more disciplined, will win 1:1s with their opponents and generally make the make the tactics look good, in a way which our level of players cannot do so?

A good point and one I think largely true. When and where he has been successful that has been the case. Especially in the attacking play as I don't think he really drills attacking drills instead it's more about overall team shape and freedom for the attacking players to express themselves within the confines of that team shape. This does work best when those players are of supreme quality. If you imagine 2010 Zanetti or 2013 Khedira instead of Sissoko in the b2b role you start to see how and why his system has previously had success.

Even now I don't think we are a million miles off, it's just he keeps making the same certain critical selection and team attitude errors that do not work with the players he currently possess. For me that is the source of the frustration, the lack of adjustment to the realities of what he has available.

 

[Baleforce]

Do you care about the quality of the football you watch or just the stats because if it's just the stats then why not just watch the result at the end and not bother watching the game in progress. It won't make any difference for you.

I do care about the quality of the football, it has something of a bearing on the result, defending is half of the game though, I want quality in both directions, and it doesn't have to be an even split. I want to see multiple reasons why we won the game, I want predictability and consistency.

The stats are important in football as the scoring system is somewhat arbitrary, it gives a greater understanding to what actually happened in the game, without the bias of favouritism and the blinkers of preconceptions.

In an ideal world I would be able to just wait for the result, a goal(s) to zero win, until we get to that level of perfection though I need to watch the games so I know what to moan about on here.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I do care about the quality of the football, it has something of a bearing on the result, defending is half of the game though, I want quality in both directions, and it doesn't have to be an even split. I want to see multiple reasons why we won the game, I want predictability and consistency.

The stats are important in football as the scoring system is somewhat arbitrary, it gives a greater understanding to what actually happened in the game, without the bias of favouritism and the blinkers of preconceptions.

In an ideal world I would be able to just wait for the result, a goal(s) to zero win, until we get to that level of perfection though I need to watch the games so I know what to moan about on here.

You’re right.... the entire second half of games for us it seems...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Has anyone kept abreast of where we are versus last year against the same opposition? (substituting teams 1, 2, 3 coming up from the Championship for the teams finishing 18th, 19th and 20th in the PL last season.

that would be a good barometer of how much Jose has improved us. We could then compare that to other managers who have served similar terms such as Arteta and Moyes and maybe Ancelotti? (when did he join Everton?)

 

[Pirate55]

So I think you are where I am. Your closing sentence is right, and that would see Jose probably survive all next season (we'd get a decent CL group, probably get through it and therefore still have optimism moving before xmas next year) and he'd get more cash to spend in the summer.

Its the scenario where he doesnt get top 4 (and we're probably more likely to finish outside top 4 than in the top 4 IMO) where the wheels have the potential to come off. We wouldnt spend as much in the summer making us less competitive next season, and if he's say 7th come Nov/Dec, atmosphere at games would be toxic and he'd be toast

Related to this, I was wondering whether Jose's tactics only work with really top class players, rather than just the very good players we have? Top class players can cover mistakes, might be more disciplined, will win 1:1s with their opponents and generally make the make the tactics look good, in a way which our level of players cannot do so?

You have put your finger on the essence of the problem. Our defenders and in particular our centre backs are not of sufficient quality. Each one have a glaring deficiency to his game. I suspect Jose's tactic of the low block and (apart from Wednesday's aberration) of playing Sissoko to cover Aurier's walkabouts, as well as having Son and Bergwyn play auxiliary full backs, has largely been due to our lack of quality in those positions.

I would point you to his initial tactics when he first joined - we will outscore the opposition due to our quality of attacking players - and we were very high scoring in most of his initial games (prior to Kane and Son getting injured). We had made up a huge points difference to Chelsea(in fourth) before we were bedevilled by injuries to our front players (and Son's ban). That game against Chelsea when Son got sent off and Rugier accused the crowd of racism was the turning point. Jose was scrabbling for the remainder of that season without any recognised strikers to get us into Europe - which we just managed, so credit to him for that.

Apart from the Everton debacle, we started this season on a good run of form. The turning point was the West Ham game when Jose realised the defence simply couldn't be trusted and had to devise tactics o protect them. However, I believe that whilst this was ok against teams who attacked us - Man U, Chelsea, City and Liverpool , it is not an appropriate tactic for teams that sit back. Starting just two attackers against lowly Fulham was an epic example of a total fail in his gameplan. A failure to address this when things were so obviously going wrong in the second half is entirely down to him, To fail to use Bale, Dele or Lucas when we still had another sub to go was completely negligent in my view. He certainly hasn't yet got the balance right. I only hope he recognises this himself and does something about it.

No Dele again today - not even on the bench would lead me to think he hasn't!

 

[parklane1]

So I think you are where I am. Your closing sentence is right, and that would see Jose probably survive all next season (we'd get a decent CL group, probably get through it and therefore still have optimism moving before xmas next year) and he'd get more cash to spend in the summer.

Its the scenario where he doesnt get top 4 (and we're probably more likely to finish outside top 4 than in the top 4 IMO) where the wheels have the potential to come off. We wouldnt spend as much in the summer making us less competitive next season, and if he's say 7th come Nov/Dec, atmosphere at games would be toxic and he'd be toast

Related to this, I was wondering whether Jose's tactics only work with really top class players, rather than just the very good players we have? Top class players can cover mistakes, might be more disciplined, will win 1:1s with their opponents and generally make the make the tactics look good, in a way which our level of players cannot do so?

I try and be optimistic and from what i have seen from the top of the table there is only Liverpool and City who have been fairly consistent and i expect them to get better as the season goes on and finish 1st and 2nd. As for the other two positions i believe we have as much chance as the other contenders to be in there.

You make a valid point about really top players and i agree, sadly we still have positions we need to improve on, its such a shame that we have not really had a chance to see Tanguy and Lo Celso pair up ( injury, illness) because i believe they are both top players. I know i keep saying that it is a work in progress but it is and it was never going to be a easy job ( the team was finished under Poch and the players we have bought in need to be given time).

I was one who wanted Poch to be given more time but he was not so now we have to except that the team make up, style of play had to change and despite what some fans believe it will NOT happen overnight. However IF Jose fails to deliver trophys he will be removed just like a shed load of managers have been over the years.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Wonder what some of the Jose naysayers make of this from Kane in his interview with BBC after the game:

"Tanguy [Ndombele} scored a fantastic goal and we saw the game out well, which we haven't done in the past few weeks. It's never been the manager saying that (we should sit back) it's been us on the pitch having a mentality where we want to drop and hold on to to the win. The most important thing is us as players to go and take responsibility, and we did that today."

[I have an inkling of what some might try to say if they really are desperate to twist everything against Mourinho]

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I've said before I'm not a fan of Mourinho style of play but playing well and dominating opponents hasn't won us much in the last few years. I like to see the media now love teams that play open attacking football and lose, it's such a refreshing change from the ridicule we had heaped upon us when we failed in the past.

 

[fernadez]

Wonder what some of the Jose naysayers make of this from Kane in his interview with BBC after the game:

"Tanguy [Ndombele} scored a fantastic goal and we saw the game out well, which we haven't done in the past few weeks. It's never been the manager saying that (we should sit back) it's been us on the pitch having a meteorology where we want to drop and hold on to to the win. The most important thing is us as players to go and take responsibility, and we did that today."

[I have an inkling of what some might try to say if they really are desperate to twist everything against Mourinho]

Which stems from knowing that the defence is likely to concede so protect it.

 

[parklane1]

Wonder what some of the Jose naysayers make of this from Kane in his interview with BBC after the game:

"Tanguy [Ndombele} scored a fantastic goal and we saw the game out well, which we haven't done in the past few weeks. It's never been the manager saying that (we should sit back) it's been us on the pitch having a meteorology where we want to drop and hold on to to the win. The most important thing is us as players to go and take responsibility, and we did that today."

[I have an inkling of what some might try to say if they really are desperate to twist everything against Mourinho]

You know they will.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Wonder what some of the Jose naysayers make of this from Kane in his interview with BBC after the game:

"Tanguy [Ndombele} scored a fantastic goal and we saw the game out well, which we haven't done in the past few weeks. It's never been the manager saying that (we should sit back) it's been us on the pitch having a meteorology where we want to drop and hold on to to the win. The most important thing is us as players to go and take responsibility, and we did that today."

[I have an inkling of what some might try to say if they really are desperate to twist everything against Mourinho]

Let’s take Kane at face value because the lad seems very honest to me.

Jose is the man on the sideline with some control over the situation. Whether or not he told the team to sit back, he’s watched them do it time and again and concede. His job, if the players aren’t or can’t follow his instructions, is to manage that situation so they try something new to stop us being pegged back.

Whether Jose told them to sit back or not is irrelevant. He saw it happen repeatedly (because we all called it at the time) and failed to do anything to stop it.

 

[billyiddo]

If what Kane says is true then it's actually more of a concern because it raises questions over what Mourinho is doing on the training pitch, the mindset that he is putting in place and what he's able to do to address the situation from the sidelines.

If it was just a tactical instruction to sit back from the manager then it'd be a relatively simple fix a of him holding off on doing so until the game was put to bed - this has you wondering if anything he is saying is getting through to them, more than a year in to the job...

 

[90291Spur]

I love Spurs. I DO NOT love Jose. He could win everything under the sun with us and, while I’d be happy as a yid in custard, I would still not love Jose.

 

[metalgear]

Concern for Levy too as the coach needs his men

If what Kane says is true then it's actually more of a concern because it raises questions over what Mourinho is doing on the training pitch, the mindset that he is putting in place and what he's able to do to address the situation from the sidelines.

If it was just a tactical instruction to sit back from the manager then it'd be a relatively simple fix a of him holding off on doing so until the game was put to bed - this has you wondering if anything he is saying is getting through to them, more than a year in to the job...

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