Ingerlund

[Grays_1890]

compared to the players I listed they are, compared to Kane, Messi, Mbappe they are

there is a reason they are bit part players in PL sides

And you look round those players you mention and the majority of their team mates are Mehhhh.

Bit part, not sure about that Foden and Saka play week in week out, Saka has been one of the PLs players of the first half the season playing dkr a team we all coat week in week out for being crap but has been a huge reason they are top. Bellingham is an absolute beast for his club and has come of age.

Look we won't agree, that's clear and fine, I just believe if you think this Englabd WC was par and is comparable to other campaigns then I personally think your bar is set pretty low

 

[Baleforce]

And you look round those players you mention and the majority of their team mates are Mehhhh.

Bit part, not sure about that Foden and Saka play week in week out, Saka has been one of the PLs players of the first half the season playing dkr a team we all coat week in week out for being crap but has been a huge reason they are top. Bellingham is an absolute beast for his club and has come of age.

Look we won't agree, that's clear and fine, I just believe if you think this Englabd WC was par and is comparable to other campaigns then I personally think your bar is set pretty low

fair enough, I think to win a WC against teams with the quality of Argentina and France, you need more than what England have, Henderson, Sterling, Mount, all played a lot of minutes, yet were easily the weakest 3 players in the entire tournament, they can only dream of being bang average

 

[Bedfordspurs]

fair enough, I think to win a WC against teams with the quality of Argentina and France, you need more than what England have, Henderson, Sterling, Mount, all played a lot of minutes, yet were easily the weakest 3 players in the entire tournament, they can only dream of being bang average

Argentina had some weak players
So did France

 

[Baleforce]

Argentina had some weak players
So did France

yeah, a few, England have a squad full of them

 

[DeanoAustin]

Football is not played on paper but your post lacks context because some of the previous performances you described contained tournaments with alot better sides than currently, GHod and Sven exited against much better sides than the Croatia, France and Italy under Southgate, ne being a generational Brazil, definately one of the best in my time and GHod going out to a star studded Argentina.

Southgate has navigated us to tournaments he really should have given their lack of depth but within his whole record he has 4 wins against top 10 sides in 24....that's the crux of the criticism, no one is attacking his character but when we meet a good side his team limp out, the Croatia and Italy games he let pass by without making any significant changes.

He has to be judged on that because till those crucial games we went out in we slept walked to them (Bar Germany in the Euros)

He isn't a big game manager in my opinion and his club record doesn't stack up either

Na, not buying that. International football is no better or worse now than it was at any point in the last 20 years. And, broadly speaking, England are no better or worse than have been for as long as I’ve watched football.

Hoddle played against the Argies because he couldn’t win a group including Romania, Colombia and Tunisia. That same Argentina side went out in the very next round.

Svens side in 2002 couldn’t finish ahead of Sweden to win the group.

Take Robson in 86. Finished second to Morocco who they drew with and they lost to Portugal. Scraped into the last 16 and beat Paraguay before losing to “the first decent team” they played.

1990? Putrid draw against Ireland, drew against Holland, beat egypt by a goal. Lucked past a Belgian side who had battered them for 120 minutes with the last kick of the game before scraping past Cameroon with 2 pens. Beaten again by “the first decent team they played” in Germany.

1996? Abysmal draw with Switzerland, only beat Scotland because of a missed pen, beat a Dutch side in disarray very well, lucked past Spain on pens and then lost to Germany.

Of course, you can spin some of those the other way and I’ve been deliberately negative to prove a point. But there’s more than an element of truth in the above.

Robson also lost his 3 euro games to Ireland, Holland and the Soviet Union. So you compare Robsons record to Southgate’s over 3 tournaments and Southgate has been a better England manager. Theres no getting away from that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

yeah, a few, England have a squad full of them

Disagree
IMO France and Argentina had more
They also had a player who elevated the team and the managers allowed to do that

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Na, not buying that. International football is no better or worse now than it was at any point in the last 20 years. And, broadly speaking, England are no better or worse than have been for as long as I’ve watched football.

Hoddle played against the Argies because he couldn’t win a group including Romania, Colombia and Tunisia. That same Argentina side went out in the very next round.

Svens side in 2002 couldn’t finish ahead of Sweden to win the group.

Take Robson in 86. Finished second to Morocco who they drew with and they lost to Portugal. Scraped into the last 16 and beat Paraguay before losing to “the first decent team” they played.

1990? Putrid draw against Ireland, drew against Holland, beat egypt by a goal. Lucked past a Belgian side who had battered them for 120 minutes with the last kick of the game before scraping past Cameroon with 2 pens. Beaten again by “the first decent team they played” in Germany.

1996? Abysmal draw with Switzerland, only beat Scotland because of a missed pen, beat a Dutch side in disarray very well, lucked past Spain on pens and then lost to Germany.

Of course, you can spin some of those the other way and I’ve been deliberately negative to prove a point. But there’s more than an element of truth in the above.

Robson also lost his 3 euro games to Ireland, Holland and the Soviet Union. So you compare Robsons record to Southgate’s over 3 tournaments and Southgate has been a better England manager. Theres no getting away from that.

Southgate’s made a final
He also made the semis which was a high for a previous great manager
He isn’t perfect and still needs to be proactive with his subs
But his record is really up there with the best

 

[DeanoAustin]

Southgate’s made a final
He also made the semis which was a high for a previous great manager
He isn’t perfect and still needs to be proactive with his subs
But his record is really up there with the best

And I’d agree with that. I’ve no real skin in this game, I’m looking in from the outside. I’m not a fan of Southgate. But he’s done a bloody good job. He’s made mistakes, he’s not perfect but you look at Englands record over 50 years, you look at some of the big names who have done nothing in the job and you have to say he’s done well when you look at the three tournaments overall.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

He's too negative for my liking and doesnt seem to have a plan, but he has done well with a group of very ordinary players. My fear is we will go the way of all the other teams from the British Isles and struggle to make any impact on the international scene. All the important positions in our top clubs are filled by overseas players.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He's too negative for my liking and doesnt seem to have a plan, but he has done well with a group of very ordinary players. My fear is we will go the way of all the other teams from the British Isles and struggle to make any impact on the international scene. All the important positions in our top clubs are filled by overseas players.

He actually now has a good selection of players everywhere other than CB
Rice will be playing CL soon
Gueye and Tomori will come into the fold soon
The only player who won’t be playing CL is Pickford
Look at the Argentina team and we’re talking Vilals keeper, Ottamendi who is past it and then some (played well though)
Lyon’s full back who is again not great
Mac Allister form the mighty Brighton
A new lad who could be anything
De Paul…. I’ve seen him be great and gash
Di Maria started one game
They have city’s reserve striker too
It’s not amazing pickings but they play as a team and had some confidence they were gonna win with Messi driving everything

 

[Grays_1890]

He actually now has a good selection of players everywhere other than CB
Rice will be playing CL soon
Gueye and Tomori will come into the fold soon
The only player who won’t be playing CL is Pickford
Look at the Argentina team and we’re talking Vilals keeper, Ottamendi who is past it and then some (played well though)
Lyon’s full back who is again not great
Mac Allister form the mighty Brighton
A new lad who could be anything
De Paul…. I’ve seen him be great and gash
Di Maria started one game
They have city’s reserve striker too
It’s not amazing pickings but they play as a team and had some confidence they were gonna win with Messi driving everything

Exactly, summed up what I was trying to say, people saying our side isn't great but then take the star player out of most they are average and in many cases carrying a 35+ ego maniac who is past it.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

He actually now has a good selection of players everywhere other than CB
Rice will be playing CL soon
Gueye and Tomori will come into the fold soon
The only player who won’t be playing CL is Pickford
Look at the Argentina team and we’re talking Vilals keeper, Ottamendi who is past it and then some (played well though)
Lyon’s full back who is again not great
Mac Allister form the mighty Brighton
A new lad who could be anything
De Paul…. I’ve seen him be great and gash
Di Maria started one game
They have city’s reserve striker too
It’s not amazing pickings but they play as a team and had some confidence they were gonna win with Messi driving everything

There may be some good players out there but he either doesnt rate them or know what to do with them. Foden at City has the potential to be a fine midfielder but currently there are 3 better than him in that position at his club and he has to play out of position and in a system totally different from Southgate's. He cant get the best out of Saka or Mount and his system relies on Kane for goals and creativity. All the top clubs in PL are built round overseas goal scorers and midfielders.

 

[glasgowspur]

Na, not buying that. International football is no better or worse now than it was at any point in the last 20 years. And, broadly speaking, England are no better or worse than have been for as long as I’ve watched football.

Hoddle played against the Argies because he couldn’t win a group including Romania, Colombia and Tunisia. That same Argentina side went out in the very next round.

Svens side in 2002 couldn’t finish ahead of Sweden to win the group.

Take Robson in 86. Finished second to Morocco who they drew with and they lost to Portugal. Scraped into the last 16 and beat Paraguay before losing to “the first decent team” they played.

1990? Putrid draw against Ireland, drew against Holland, beat egypt by a goal. Lucked past a Belgian side who had battered them for 120 minutes with the last kick of the game before scraping past Cameroon with 2 pens. Beaten again by “the first decent team they played” in Germany.

1996? Abysmal draw with Switzerland, only beat Scotland because of a missed pen, beat a Dutch side in disarray very well, lucked past Spain on pens and then lost to Germany.

Of course, you can spin some of those the other way and I’ve been deliberately negative to prove a point. But there’s more than an element of truth in the above.

Robson also lost his 3 euro games to Ireland, Holland and the Soviet Union. So you compare Robsons record to Southgate’s over 3 tournaments and Southgate has been a better England manager. Theres no getting away from that.

Have to say i never understood the veneration robson gets, his record is not that good.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

England's problem is the FA. They want someone who will behave properly and not be controversial, couple of failures to qualify for major tournies might bring them back to the real world.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There may be some good players out there but he either doesnt rate them or know what to do with them. Foden at City has the potential to be a fine midfielder but currently there are 3 better than him in that position at his club and he has to play out of position and in a system totally different from Southgate's. He cant get the best out of Saka or Mount and his system relies on Kane for goals and creativity. All the top clubs in PL are built round overseas goal scorers and midfielders.

He needs to play a divergent system tournament to tournament and adapt based on who is available and in form
It’s what hurt Brazil but worked for Argentina
England have players. I’d argue the depth of options know is as strong as anyone’s from what I’ve seen in this WC. You just have to get the pieces right. And also need luck too (the Argentina penalty was less of a penalty than the one kane wasn’t given for example, and France weren’t ill when we played them)
You do need to get something over the line
For Argentina winning the copa america made the difference as it lifted the weight off Messi
England shoudk be right up in the euros IMO and that may be a turning point

 

[braineclipse]

He needs to play a divergent system tournament to tournament and adapt based on who is available and in form
It’s what hurt Brazil but worked for Argentina
England have players. I’d argue the depth of options know is as strong as anyone’s from what I’ve seen in this WC. You just have to get the pieces right. And also need luck too (the Argentina penalty was less of a penalty than the one kane wasn’t given for example, and France weren’t ill when we played them)
You do need to get something over the line
For Argentina winning the copa america made the difference as it lifted the weight off Messi
England shoudk be right up in the euros IMO and that may be a turning point

Mostly needs luck/margins imo.

Southgate is doing as much as can be expected from anyone. Apart from perhaps the very elite managers that usually don't take these jobs anyway.

So many fine margins all across the knockout stages. Play it again and you could end up with very different results, and the resulting narratives would be very different too.

Southgate has England up there, competiting with the best and making it close, being one of the best teams. That's about as good as it gets. Luck and margins takes it from there.

The copa win lifted the weight off Messi. I agree, based on how he and Argentina played. But they were no better than England overall. Bit of bad luck against Mexico and they could have been out before the knockout. Weight lifted off Messi would be equally true if that happened, but it wouldn't be the dominant narrative.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

They'll be hanging out the bunting st the FA to celebrate winning the fair play award at the World Cup. It is something to be proud of in this day and age when sportsmanship has virtually disappeared from the professional game. I cant think of any England team in my life time who have been dirty or cheating, always been a bit naive in their play at times.

 

[glasgowspur]

They'll be hanging out the bunting st the FA to celebrate winning the fair play award at the World Cup. It is something to be proud of in this day and age when sportsmanship has virtually disappeared from the professional game. I cant think of any England team in my life time who have been dirty or cheating, always been a bit naive in their play at times.

I'd feel a bit dirty if my team won the way some do, Argentina were at it last night and that goalie was disgraceful in the penalty shoot out.
For all Englands faults it's good to see they haven't resorted to that, i personally would like England to win something just to show that you don't have to cheat to win.

 

[Jurgen the German]

After almost 60 years of winning nothing and reaching only one final in that time, surely it has to be partly on the players? Can’t always be the manager’s fault. It’s true sometimes it can be mostly their fault and almost always it can be partially their fault but we always blame the manager when we crash out of a tournament. The only negative I’d say about Southgate is he’s too cautious and he’s not proactive but he can only work with the players he has.

 

[Lilbaz]

After almost 60 years of winning nothing and reaching only one final in that time, surely it has to be partly on the players? Can’t always be the manager’s fault. It’s true sometimes it can be mostly their fault and almost always it can be partially their fault but we always blame the manager when we crash out of a tournament. The only negative I’d say about Southgate is he’s too cautious and he’s not proactive but he can only work with the players he has.

Oh plenty of of people are blaming kane.