Huddlestone

[90291Spur]

Sigh. Exactly the sort of re-introduction he needed then. Kudos to AVB for that.

Given he played such a key role in helping us qualify for our first ever season in the CL, the dismissiveness on this forum towards a player of Tom's class is dismaying to say the least.

Agreed. While he has suffered from his injuries and was never the most mobile, he is experienced and has big game experience for us. And is an option.

 

[braineclipse]

If you're talking about the period towards the end of the game, I think the biggest problem was that we were just too deep as a team. When you have ten players so close to your own penalty box, it's difficult to play your way out when you win the ball back. And when we did win possession back we looked too quickly for the difficult long pass, and gave them the ball straight back.

I do think Dembele and Parker are both quite good at escaping the press, but then Parker's problem is that his passing isn't very good, and Dembele's is that he doesn't make himself available with enough urgency IMO. I actually think Holtby will excel at playing against pressing teams due to his tendency to come deep and thus add another body in midfield, and his very quick (often one-touch) and accurate passing.

I was talking about the entire game. Yes Basel are a pretty good side, yes some fans and possibly some players probably underestimated them. Yes there aren't many easy games at this level of the tournament. We're a pretty good side too, and we were at home, I don't think expecting us to be better overall than Basel at home is too much to ask. But we weren't. Not in the last 10-15 minutes for sure, but not for most of the game to be honest.

I think Dembele is excellent under pressure, probably our best player, at least he's up there. But I can't see how anyone can suggest that Parker does more for us in possession against teams that press high up the pitch than Hudd.

 

[Spursalot]

That conveniently overlooks the long-term injury and its inevitable repercussions to weight, fitness and recovery to full match sharpness which admittedly has taken much longer than anticipated.

But to answer your question, it would seem from Sunday's outing that the long wait is finally over. And whilst I'd agree his lack of speed is a concern, the team that played against Basel last Thursday didn't exactly cover themselves in glory either. Whereas if there was one thing that game was crying out for more than anything once Dembele went off, it was someone exactly like Hudd who can spray the ball about to good effect!

Conveniently? He had a year out yes. However 10/11, 11/12, 12/13 was three years last i checked. Strange how other players have been out and not had the weight fitness and recovery issues that he has had.


He could come good, however i would not be optimistic if he was in our starting eleven against any of the big games we have left this season.

 

[Spursalot]

I was talking about the entire game. Yes Basel are a pretty good side, yes some fans and possibly some players probably underestimated them. Yes there aren't many easy games at this level of the tournament. We're a pretty good side too, and we were at home, I don't think expecting us to be better overall than Basel at home is too much to ask. But we weren't. Not in the last 10-15 minutes for sure, but not for most of the game to be honest.

I think Dembele is excellent under pressure, probably our best player, at least he's up there. But I can't see how anyone can suggest that Parker does more for us in possession against teams that press high up the pitch than Hudd.

Agreed. Players that get close to Dembele get turned so easily.


If anyone is to drop out it would be Parker. I think he is more likely to keep possession against high pressing teams, however doing something useful with it i would doubt. He is likely to turn in circles. It keeps the ball but slows us down. Perhaps at times you have to play someone who will risk losing the ball more, but will be more productive when it comes off.

 

[braineclipse]

Conveniently? He had a year out yes. However 10/11, 11/12, 12/13 was three years last i checked. Strange how other players have been out and not had the weight fitness and recovery issues that he has had.


He could come good, however i would not be optimistic if he was in our starting eleven against any of the big games we have left this season.

He was still good in 10/11, up until his injury. 12/13 is not quite done yet. So no it hasn't been 3 years quite yet.

Agreed. Players that get close to Dembele get turned so easily.

If anyone is to drop out it would be Parker. I think he is more likely to keep possession against high pressing teams, however doing something useful with it i would doubt. He is likely to turn in circles. It keeps the ball but slows us down. Perhaps at times you have to play someone who will risk losing the ball more, but will be more productive when it comes off.

I agree that Parker should be the one to drop out if someone is dropped. Parker and Huddlestone doesn't seem like a good combination to me.

Keeping possession is no goal in itself when playing against a team pressing high up the pitch. Especially if you're consistently keeping possession by using multiple touches and not moving the ball quickly. Taking 3-4 touches and then passing it backwards to a defender that's about to be put under pressure really solves nothing.

Part of the goal with high pressing is forcing opponents into long low accuracy balls forward, you mange that you've "won" that passage of play.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Would like to see Huddlestone and Parker in the midfield. Parker breaking attacks up further up the pitch and Huddlestone sitting deep spraying it around. You English guys are funny when it comes to your own country's players. You always seem to rate other country's players above them but you do have some very good players. I'd take Parker ahead of De Jong or Maduro for sure! You guys don't know how lucky we are to have him. Still think we should Strootman or Clasie though.

 

[punk_is_back`]

Would like to see Huddlestone and Parker in the midfield. Parker breaking attacks up further up the pitch and Huddlestone sitting deep spraying it around. You English guys are funny when it comes to your own country's players. You always seem to rate other country's players above them but you do have some very good players. I'd take Parker ahead of De Jong or Maduro for sure! You guys don't know how lucky we are to have him. Still think we should Strootman or Clasie though.

Dembele is much better at winning the ball and keeping it than Parker. Just because he doesn't fly into tackles. His tackling is more outmuscling players off the ball and is more effective as we retain possession. A parker tackle often see's the ball go to the opposition.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Dembele is much better at winning the ball and keeping it than Parker. Just because he doesn't fly into tackles. His tackling is more outmuscling players off the ball and is more effective as we retain possession. A parker tackle often see's the ball go to the opposition.

Noooooooo, that is simply not true! :lol:

 

[Spursalot]

Dembele is much better at winning the ball and keeping it than Parker. Just because he doesn't fly into tackles. His tackling is more outmuscling players off the ball and is more effective as we retain possession. A parker tackle often see's the ball go to the opposition.

+1

Parker's enthusiasm is nice, but lets not get carried away with that.

 

[braineclipse]

Would like to see Huddlestone and Parker in the midfield. Parker breaking attacks up further up the pitch and Huddlestone sitting deep spraying it around. You English guys are funny when it comes to your own country's players. You always seem to rate other country's players above them but you do have some very good players. I'd take Parker ahead of De Jong or Maduro for sure! You guys don't know how lucky we are to have him. Still think we should Strootman or Clasie though.

Defensively Huddlestone and Parker would be fine, although not as good as Dembele and Parker and arguably not as good as Huddlestone and Dembele. Obviously not as good as Sandro and anyone.

The problem would be going forward. Huddlestone rarely ventures into the final third. Parker does so at times, but seems to develop some kind of anxiety when he gets close to the box so he's not much use in those positions. Didn't we play them together at one point earlier this season and see exactly that?

I agree with punk_is_back in principle. Overall Dembele is at least as good as Parker at winning the ball on current form. Perhaps Parker is better purely at tackling, but Dembele's quickness makes him much better at closing down and he's stronger in shoulder to shoulder situations too. Overall as good a ball winner imo. Stats also support this notion with Dembele racking up more tackles per game than Parker this season http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/30

Perhaps Parker was better, in the first half of last season.

 

[elltrev]

Defensively Huddlestone and Parker would be fine, although not as good as Dembele and Parker and arguably not as good as Huddlestone and Dembele. Obviously not as good as Sandro and anyone.

The problem would be going forward. Huddlestone rarely ventures into the final third. Parker does so at times, but seems to develop some kind of anxiety when he gets close to the box so he's not much use in those positions. Didn't we play them together at one point earlier this season and see exactly that?

I agree with punk_is_back in principle. Overall Dembele is at least as good as Parker at winning the ball on current form. Perhaps Parker is better purely at tackling, but Dembele's quickness makes him much better at closing down and he's stronger in shoulder to shoulder situations too. Overall as good a ball winner imo. Stats also support this notion with Dembele racking up more tackles per game than Parker this season http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/30

Perhaps Parker was better, in the first half of last season.

Word of caution regarding WhoScored's stats though - they are tackles per app, which counts a sub appearance the same as a start. So Parker's stats are negatively skewed because of all of his sub appearances.

Using stats on 'minutes played' from the PL Fantasy Football site, Dembele averages 3.2 tackles per 90 minutes and Parker averages 3.3 - almost exactly the same. But parker averages 3.1 interceptions per 90 minutes compared to Dembele's 1.5.

 

[braineclipse]

Word of caution regarding WhoScored's stats though - they are tackles per app, which counts a sub appearance the same as a start. So Parker's stats are negatively skewed because of all of his sub appearances.

Using stats on 'minutes played' from the PL Fantasy Football site, Dembele averages 3.2 tackles per 90 minutes and Parker averages 3.3 - almost exactly the same. But parker averages 3.1 interceptions per 90 minutes compared to Dembele's 1.5.

Cheers, I did consider that, but didn't bother writing it at this time of what used to be a perfectly good yesterday at this point I just figured his advantage was enough to compensate for the added minutes played as my claim was that Dembele was at least as good as Parker overall/as good a ball winner, not necessarily better.

They also play different roles, Parker has a role where he should be expected to tackle a bit more than Dembele.

 

[Spursalot]

Word of caution regarding WhoScored's stats though - they are tackles per app, which counts a sub appearance the same as a start. So Parker's stats are negatively skewed because of all of his sub appearances.

Using stats on 'minutes played' from the PL Fantasy Football site, Dembele averages 3.2 tackles per 90 minutes and Parker averages 3.3 - almost exactly the same. But parker averages 3.1 interceptions per 90 minutes compared to Dembele's 1.5.

Which is surely still skewed, as if you come on after 75 minutes and everyone is tired then it will be easier to chase after and tackle them, and he will have the legs to make interceptions as the opposition get desperate and try to score.

 

[elltrev]

I was talking about the entire game. Yes Basel are a pretty good side, yes some fans and possibly some players probably underestimated them. Yes there aren't many easy games at this level of the tournament. We're a pretty good side too, and we were at home, I don't think expecting us to be better overall than Basel at home is too much to ask. But we weren't. Not in the last 10-15 minutes for sure, but not for most of the game to be honest.

I think Dembele is excellent under pressure, probably our best player, at least he's up there. But I can't see how anyone can suggest that Parker does more for us in possession against teams that press high up the pitch than Hudd.

I agree that Basel were better throughout, but in different ways. From memory, in the first half I thought they were set up really well - defended their half aggressively, in a way that put our attacking players under pressure, without leaving too much space in behind. At this point I thought our midfielders were doing quite well, it was our defenders and forwards who were sub-par.

Then towards the end of the game, when they started to dominate in terms of both possession and territory, I think that's because we were simply too deep and stand-offish as a team, rather than being due to the particular players that were on the pitch. Don't know if it was due to tiredness or a specific plan by AVB to try and draw them forward and hit them on the break.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree that Basel were better throughout, but in different ways. From memory, in the first half I thought they were set up really well - defended their half aggressively, in a way that put our attacking players under pressure, without leaving too much space in behind. At this point I thought our midfielders were doing quite well, it was our defenders and forwards who were sub-par.

Then towards the end of the game, when they started to dominate in terms of both possession and territory, I think that's because we were simply too deep and stand-offish as a team, rather than being due to the particular players that were on the pitch. Don't know if it was due to tiredness or a specific plan by AVB to try and draw them forward and hit them on the break.

For the sake of argument I can agree with all of that. I still struggle to see a single reason in there why Huddlestone wouldn't suit a game against that team better than Parker when it comes to us going forward and attacking them.

 

[elltrev]

Which is surely still skewed, as if you come on after 75 minutes and everyone is tired then it will be easier to chase after and tackle them, and he will have the legs to make interceptions as the opposition get desperate and try to score.

Yup the stats are never going to be perfect, but in Parker's case 3 of his 6 sub appearances averaged 5 minutes and so were unlikely to affect the 3.3 rate all that much, whilst for another one he came on after 25 minutes and so was unlikely to benefit that much from the situation that you describe.

Anyway as Braineclipse said, I think this shows that Parker isn't much of a better ball-winner than Dembele, if at all.

EDIT: For the record, if you remove Parker's 5 sub appearances from the sample (not including the one where he came on after just 25 minutes), his rates barely change - they each increase by 0.1.

 

[elltrev]

For the sake of argument I can agree with all of that. I still struggle to see a single reason in there why Huddlestone wouldn't suit a game against that team better than Parker when it comes to us going forward and attacking them.

Agreed. I'm not Huddlestone's biggest fan, but I think he offers more in a creative / attacking sense than Parker.

To be honest it seems so long that I've seen him play regularly, I can't really remember how good he is when being pressed.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm all for giving Hudd a chance but Basels pace terrifies me, it's not the right opposition for me

 

[SteveAWOL]

Doesnt make sense does it? Surely people who are less able on the ball are more vulnerable to teams who press you.

as mentioned in the OMT for the Basel game, for the Basel game I would pick whatever line up he's going to play against Man C given that the formation and personnel are different to that which we're used to. I'm not at all convinced Bale and Lennon will be back for the Man C game so I would use the Basel game to bed the team down. Given our poor ball retention on Sunday and Holtby's minimal contribution, I'd be tempted to play Thudd in both, though still dont see him having a long term future under AVB

I'd also like to see Huddlestone given a chance against Basel as (especially with both our wingers out for that game) we really need to use the ball better and Tom is the most talented passer in the squad (plus has vastly more experience than than Carroll).

Maybe playing in Switzerland again might inspire Hudd to put in a performance as impressive as when he helped swing the match against Bern in our favour... And a repeat of this winning goal against Emirates Marketing Project would be nice too...

[video=youtube;J84KYkmPs2Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J84KYkmPs2Y[/video]

 

[Dicko]

I'd also like to see Huddlestone given a chance against Basel as (especially with both our wingers out for that game) we really need to use the ball better and Tom is the most talented passer in the squad (plus has vastly more experience than than Carroll).

Maybe playing in Switzerland again might inspire Hudd to put in a performance as impressive as when he helped swing the match against Bern in our favour... And a repeat of this winning goal against Emirates Marketing Project would be nice too...

Maybe he'll be booking himself in at the barbers on Friday!

I bet he never imagined it would take years to score again once he made that bet lol