You're really underrating Livermore while giving substantial credit to Hudd based on pre-injury games of old. Let's see how he copes once back and revise that graphic
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Huddlestone
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You're really underrating Livermore while giving substantial credit to Hudd based on pre-injury games of old. Let's see how he copes once back and revise that graphic
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indianspur
Guest
kinda helps when your defensive mid can produce killer balls like Song produced for RVP at Anfield. Helps turn 1 point into 3, what 10 point gap to Spurs ?!!?!
Im not sure parker and sandro have that in their lockers and the lack of quality passing from our middle is not helping us one bit thru our current bad spell. We cannot keep the ball sufficiently well enough when a bit of decent pressure is apllied on us, we cannot create anything of substance that leads to genuine goalscoring chances.
There is too much pressure on Modric to deliver all the goods.. Thudd helped share the burden back in the day
clevelandspur
Pascal Chimbonda
Are you all forgetting the shocking performances THudd usually puts up against the top sides? He simply is too slow to keep pace with the top midfields, I agree that he would probably do very well in Serie A and he could be useful in games like Wednesday where we struggle to break teams down but days of him being a regular are over onwards and upwards!
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indianspur
Guest
well, if you want to persist with a 32 year old running around a lot thats what you get. Burn out, at the wrong end of the season
Yes, Song's passing has been first class this season but raises and interestig question
Would you like a DM who can't defend but pop the occasional killer ball?
Or a solid DM who gets stuck in for every ball but is only comfortable within a 15 yard range?
But that's why we have cover in Sandro, Livermore and soon Hudd
Not sure I'm following you
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Busquets is an important part of both Barca and Spains attacking play. It has been reported that Xavi thinks he is the best one touch passer in world football. Busquets kept his place in Barca despite them signing Mascherano and has made a position his in the best national side in the world at an exceptionally young age. I don't think it's just his running around, tackling, positioning and play-acting that does it.
Song is a good solid passer, picks some great balls and generally keep Arsenal ticking. Not outstanding, but he does well.
The only thing we can base Hudd on are his performances before he got injured isn't it? Of course if he comes back and isn't as good that would be different. But this thread was started about how we currently miss Hudd. What can I possibly base my discussion on if not how good he was before his injuries?
I don't think I'm underrating Livermore, he's played one good solid PL game. He's also had a couple of more disappointing ones. He is clearly inferior to both Parker and Sandro imo.
Nope, not forgetting. Nor am I forgetting some of the shocking performances Bale, Kaboul, Ekotto, Dawson, Walker, Ade or Defoe have put in from time to time.
Hudd proved the last time he was fit that he could play against big teams as well. Maybe we have to play a 3 man midfield against United and the most dynamic sides if we play Hudd against them. But it seems like we should be doing that regardless.
Even if it was the case that he "couldn't play against the big teams" we still miss him in the other 80% of matches, like against Everton and Stoke.
He's been improving steadily since August and exceeded most expectations on here. Have a look at his thread if you disagree.
1 good game? Are you kidding? Had a good 7-8 solid games including 2-3 MotM performances against Watford and Everton, plus some great displays against Man Utd.
Out of interest - do you have a chance to watch our games live in Norway? Highlights can be one's worst enemy at times.
r.e. Busquets and Song - I don't disagree with your description - simply noted they're both solid DMs in a 4-5-1
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indianspur
Guest
But the manager insists on playing Parker and Modric, they are his current favourites for the centre of midfield. when fit they play together. Redknapp will not rest Parker and bring in Sandro to satisfy your ideal use of the squad.
if you and Redknapp want to persist with a sandro/parker type alongside Modric, then it would be smarter to rotate the defensive midfielders a lot more, to save parker. But this is another thread altogether. My only wish is that Thudd was fully fit and we wouldnt have to bother about whether Parker is burned out or not because both Modric and Thudd would control enough games with their passing that they wouldnt suffer from any tiring problems
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
You need a combo for sure, can't be an either/or situation.
A team that wants to compete at the top can't carry a player that can't pass the ball consistently in midfield. A Palacios type player for example. However, players like Makelele and Parker, who are solid, consistent short range passers, but rarely make creative, expansive attacking passes are clearly possible.
Similarly a top team can't carry a central midfielder in a deep position that can't defend. Niko Kranjcar won't be a 4-5-1 deep playmaker any time soon. And Charlie Adam is a fudging liability.
There are players that can do both at a very high level, but they are rare. In general I tend to prefer the attacking ability players, not only since that's what I prefer, but also because that's Tottenham. We want to, and try to, play attacking football along the ground. We need players that can play that style or we will look very disjointed and having a tough tackling dm won't be a cure, but rather the cause of problems. Huddlsetone has enough defensive abilities to cope against the vast majority of opponents. Like he showed by playing in a 4-4-2 alongside Modric against some very good teams. In a 4-5-1 he will have even less space around him when defending so he will cope even better. He is still only 25, 24 the last time he was fit and I believe he can still improve.
But you need squad options. And probably at least one tough tackling squad option. We have two, that is good.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
I watch every game live on tv, haven't been at The Lane in about a year though :s. Wouldn't ever argue much based on highlights alone.
I'll give you two, Everton and Man Utd. Games like those against Watford and EL games I don't really count for that much. Certainly nothing to prove his worth anywhere near that of Hudd.
I agree he has been improving steadily and now looks like a useful squad player who might eventually get even better. Still nothing compared to what Huddlestone has done for us.
I'm yet to see him play really well in a game where our team and midfield is put under pressure when on the ball. United would be the closest, but in that game United sat back and counter attacked for most of the game. When i have seen Livermore under pressure he has looked quite a bit worse, hoping that he can make that step up and influence a game on the ball even when we are put under pressure.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Hudd got two actual MotM awards in the Premier League in 46 starts. So far this season, with 5 starts Jake Livermore has none.
I ignored the Watford and EL games as evidence for his PL quality and ability because of the lower level opponents. I find it difficult to judge how good players are against opponents that are clearly worse than our normal PL standard opponents. But if you want to we could always start comparing those as well. How about when Hudd came on against Young Boys to turn around the game to actually get us in the CL? Would Livermore have been able to do that kind of influence on a game at the moment? I doubt it.
Since we're talking about stats, here's an article that popped up when I was looking for the MotM stats: http://www.eplindex.com/1852/tom-huddlestone-main-man-middle.html
When neutral sources start writing articles like that about Livermore we can start talking about the two of them being at a similar level.
No one saying they're on the same level although your graphic insinuated Hudd is somewhat miles ahead of Livermore.
Simply feel your strongly baised towards the one. Especially after negatively assuming Livermore could have never changed that game for us. Why not?
And those inferior EL opponents knocked us out of the competition.
That article is old news really - what is it meant to prove exactly?
You clearly rate him highly (fair dos) but give credit where it's due
punk_is_back`
Ilie Dumitrescu
Parker is neither, he can be solid if he remains disciplined but recently he's been charging around everywhere. With regards to his comfort in passing, he can pass within 15 yards but its very hit or miss and most of the time he will play it backwards to the CB who then spread it out to Walker/BAE.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Like I said, I think Hudd is about as far ahead of Livermore as Modric is ahead of Parker.
I don't think he could have changed a game like that for us because he never has shown anything to show me that he can. Of course it could happen, and Gio could score a hat-trick this weekend against Chelsea. I'm not keeping my fingers crossed for that one either.
Yes, those inferior EL opponents knocked us out of the competition, and yes Watford didn't deserve to lose and yes Stevenage held us to a draw and I still don't think games against those teams prove anywhere as much as games against PL (or similar) level opponents. Just like I don't think how well Gio does against fairly poor international side defending proves anywhere near as much as his games against PL level opponents.
I think I give credit where it's due. But I don't see how Livermore is due as much credit as Huddlestone at this moment in time. If he keeps improving, who knows? But for now they are different class.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
As i have said earlier Hudd is a liabilty againt teams that get in his face and his lack of pace is really poor, he can not tackle,head a ball and his defensive reading of the game is shocking.
And the other thing i have noticed reading through this thread is the opinon that Hudd and Modric have played often and well together, i have just gone through the line ups for the last four seasons and they have played together in the CM only 13 times, most of the time Hudd had had Wilson or Jenas as his CM partner.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
The opinion that Hudd and Modric played often together was only from one poster, and I'm quite sure he's wrong. The opinion that they have played well together, both in 4-4-2 and 4-5-1/4-3-3 and against very good opponents is shared by many.
Your opinion that he can't tackle is a strange one seeing how when he was a regular and fit he was the player with the most tackles per game, more than Palacios for example. In addition he got a lot of interceptions. He's not great one on one against quick dribblers. But that is a situation that should come up very rarely as long as we're organized and playing well and his other qualities more than make up for his weaknesses.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that the only reason Livermore has been picked above Sandro is fitness