Harry Redknapp: The Aftermath

[ArcspacE]

I don't think it's such a ridiculous thing to say to be honest, that a popular game that over simplifies football has led to people not in the game to believe it is a relativelty simply thing to understand when in actual fact there are far more considerations that go on than we know about.

I know I'm guilty of thinking 'Uggggh, why did Harry/Manager X not do that - it's so obvious!' on occasion.

It's extremely ignorant at the very least tarnishing all posters as pre-teen gamers based on their different opinion. Not to mention the massive assumption being thrown here.

I've never played that game but even those who do - I'm not entirely sure how:

- their opinion is automatically devaluated by some bizarre logic of association to a computer game
- their opinion is automatically deemed as 'wrong' as a result of that


Just to add - I've also discovered the majority of FM-card chuckers are the ones who generally

- follow very little football outside Spurs
- have limited general knoweldge as far European leagues/players are concerened - and close to zero worldwide-wise
- have little interest in the game as a whole outsite the PL bubble

So if someone mentions a name / team they've never heard of = FM Player / Johnny foreigners

Suggest a transfer target not featured on MotD = FM player

Appears to be losing the debate as a result = FM player

etc.


If you genuinely fail to see the sheer ignorance in that 'argument', well, let's leave it at that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Why exactly is it 'rubbish'?

Did he commit to us when England was very much a possibility - a.k.a. the 'people's choice :lol: ? So why should we do it now? Why should we be loyal to a man who not at one single point before Hodgson got the job came out and said - 'I'm Tottenham Hotspur's manager for another 1.5 years - not interested at the moment'. Much like Moyes, Hodgson, etc. all did.

I tell you why - because if the FA approached him - he would have dropped us like a smelly sock even if we finished 3rd. So now we should go and offer him a long-term 4m a year contract because his exit plan back-fired?

He has a contract for a season - we can review it afterwards based on performance, etc. without making uncertain financial commitments.

Based on last season's success he deserves another season and possibly another 2 after that if we keep improving. Based on last season he also deserves to be dealt with carefully as far as long-term contractual commitments are concerned.

Because going half way with something is absolutely the worst thing to do, especially in football. There are so many examples of failure at football clubs because not everyone is pulling in the right direction, or because there is too much uncertainty. When everyone knows where they are heading, it's the best thing for everyone associate with the club.

The England stuff is behind us now. I have no doubt he would have left, but it needs to be forgotten about because otherwise it hinders our decision making and long term planning. If he is to go, and we want to get someone else in, he should go. But if he is to remain, he should be backed strongly. Having another season of 'will he or will he not be going at the end of the season' will just be ridiculous. We would be absolute idiots to put ourselves in that position after seeing what has happened this year, and seeing as Levy is one of the people that thought the speculation may have been problematic, I'm sure he won't let it happen.

Why give him another year to see how he does? He's not going to change as a manager. He's either the right man or he isn't. If we decide he is the right man, then he needs to be backed. He needs a new 3 year contract to eliminate the uncertainty around the club and let the players know he is the man. He will then need to be backed in the transfer market because if Levy was hesitant to spend because he thought the manager spending the money might leave then we will fall behind as everyone else will improve.

Everyone needs to pull in the right direction at a football club, I can't think of any success that has happened where there was too much uncertainty and too many disagreements. Harry and Levy, despite being different characters, understand each other and compliment each other well. It's a partnership that works because Harry is good at making young players that fit in with Levy's policy play to their potential, while Levy is good at keeping the finances under control where as that hasn't happened at previous clubs. You have a club like Swansea, where the foundations are there to play good football. There was already a philosophy and a culture around the club, making Rodgers the right man. He wasn't the right man for Watford or Reading and wasn't successful at those clubs. Wigan back Martinez because they trust him and everyone is pulling in the same direction and they get their rewards.

I just cannot see the logic in creating another season of uncertainty. I'm not saying Harry should definitely stay. I'm saying that if the club decides he is the right man, then he needs to be backed. No half way measures, no trying to please everyone or being indecisive, because it absolutely never works.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It's extremely ignorant at the very least tarnishing all posters as pre-teen gamers based on their different opinion. Not to mention the massive assumption being thrown here.

I've never played that game but even those who do - I'm not entirely sure how:

- their opinion is automatically devalueted by some bizarre logic of association to a computer game
- their opinion is automatically deemed as 'wrong' as a result of that


Just to add - I've also discovered the majority of FM-card chuckers are the ones who generally

- follow very little football outside Spurs
- have limited general knoweldge as far European leagues/players are concerened
- have little interest in the game as a whole outsite the PL bubble

So if someone mentions a name / team they've never heard of = FM Player / Johnny foreigners

Suggest a transfer target not featured on MotD = FM player

Appears to be losing the arguement = FM player

etc.


If you genuinely fail to see the sheer ignorance in that 'argument', well, let's leave it at that.

It's not saying they are pre-teen gamers. I'm not a pre-teen and I play it pretty regularly for fun when I want to wind down. It's just saying that if someone makes an argument that looks to be in pretty simplistic terms that it isn't as simple as it is in the game. It's not even saying that all people who take that line of argument play the game. Just that football isn't a simple game as it is made out to be in the games.

I'd also argue that you are tarring everyone who throws the FM card with the same brush, just as you perceive the FM card chuckers to be tarring you. Fair play, you may say. I don't really mind, I just think the point isn't neccesarily a bad one. Maybe it comes across as slightly patronising, but the argument that football isn't as simple as it is made out - not just in the game but in the media and in general - is certainly correct IMO.

 

[ArcspacE]

Because going half way with something is absolutely the worst thing to do, especially in football. There are so many examples of failure at football clubs because not everyone is pulling in the right direction, or because there is too much uncertainty. When everyone knows where they are heading, it's the best thing for everyone associate with the club.

The England stuff is behind us now. I have no doubt he would have left, but it needs to be forgotten about because otherwise it hinders our decision making and long term planning. If he is to go, and we want to get someone else in, he should go. But if he is to remain, he should be backed strongly. Having another season of 'will he or will he not be going at the end of the season' will just be ridiculous. We would be absolute idiots to put ourselves in that position after seeing what has happened this year, and seeing as Levy is one of the people that thought the speculation may have been problematic, I'm sure he won't let it happen.

Why give him another year to see how he does? He's not going to change as a manager. He's either the right man or he isn't. If we decide he is the right man, then he needs to be backed. He needs a new 3 year contract to eliminate the uncertainty around the club and let the players know he is the man. He will then need to be backed in the transfer market because if Levy was hesitant to spend because he thought the manager spending the money might leave then we will fall behind as everyone else will improve.

Everyone needs to pull in the right direction at a football club, I can't think of any success that has happened where there was too much uncertainty and too many disagreements. Harry and Levy, despite being different characters, understand each other and compliment each other well. It's a partnership that works because Harry is good at making young players that fit in with Levy's policy play to their potential, while Levy is good at keeping the finances under control where as that hasn't happened at previous clubs. You have a club like Swansea, where the foundations are there to play good football. There was already a philosophy and a culture around the club, making Rodgers the right man. He wasn't the right man for Watford or Reading and wasn't successful at those clubs. Wigan back Martinez because they trust him and everyone is pulling in the same direction and they get their rewards.

I just cannot see the logic in creating another season of uncertainty. I'm not saying Harry should definitely stay. I'm saying that if the club decides he is the right man, then he needs to be backed. No half way measures, no trying to please everyone or being indecisive, because it absolutely never works.

We are not going halfway though, are we - he has a contract for next season unless he chooses to quit. How is that not pulling in the right direction?

The England stuff might be behind now but his behaviour at the time spoke volumes - so to conviniently forget everything now and give him a new 20m / 4year deal is ridiculous, imv. Cuckoldry at its best! It must not be forgotten because it showed people's true characters and agendas. So - as a result we shall deal with them accordingly - i.e. carfefully and intelligentelly.

I don't think it would be a season of uncertainty - if Arry loves us so much - even more incentive to perform well/better and earn a new deal.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The one thing that FM has done to tinkle me off more than anything else is the idea it has created that signing players is easy. Because actually signing players is fudging tedious the game simplifies it massively (make bid, bid accepted, offer terms, done), and every window this means Levy will be told off for dingdonging around and not just offering what the player/club/agent wants. Come on Daniel, stop wasting time to save those poxy millions, I don't want to wait til next week to find out who we're signing.

Surely even you'd agree that scrambling to sign everyone on 31st August/30th January is a wee bit excessive, though?

 

[yiddo2786]

Surely even you'd agree that scrambling to sign everyone on 31st August/30th January is a wee bit excessive, though?

I'm sure he does it on purpose just to annoy us

 

[southstand1882]

Just to add - I've also discovered the majority of FM-card chuckers are the ones who generally

- follow very little football outside Spurs That's because its brick. Spurs are the bestest in the world
- have limited general knoweldge as far European leagues/players are concerened - and close to zero worldwide-wise. European football is pony, like the Scottish league
- have little interest in the game as a whole outsite the PL bubble England does everything better, and that includes our league

 

[BrainOfLevy]

We are not going halfway though, are we - he has a contract for next season unless he chooses to quit. How is that not pulling in the right direction?

The England stuff might be behind now but his behaviour at the time spoke volumes - so to conviniently forget everything now and give him a new 20m / 4year deal is ridiculous, imv. Cuckoldry at its best! It must not be forgotten because it showed people's true characters and agendas. So - as a result we shall deal with them accordingly - i.e. carfefully and intelligentelly.

I don't think it would be a season of uncertainty - if Arry loves us so much - even more incentive to perform well/better and earn a new deal.

Contracts would generally be renewed before expiry though. It works like that with players and it usually works like that with managers unless they are operating in a particularly low-pressure environment. Even Pep, who operated from year to year, would renew it well before it was due to expire, and that's why I think he needs to be backed.

We don't need the club to be in a state of limbo again where we are weighing up whether he is good enough or not. He either is or he isn't. He has the remaining year but most contracts are renewed before, or are rolling, probably to remove the exact situation I am talking about where uncertainty creeps in. It's the absolute worst thing for a manager, especially one who is supposed to be challenging at the top of the table where the margins are so fine.

 

[monkeybarry]

Difficult one. On a previous thread I listed 15 reasons why I felt Rednapp had shortcomings. One of them was transfer policy. His buys have been largely cack - too old, too slow, or just useless. Nevertheless, it is hard to fire someone who has achieved the objective set of finishing fourth or better.

However, going forward, should Levy trust H with our transfer budget? Remember he bought Bassong, Pallacios, Crouch, Defoe, Pienaar, Nelsen, Gallas, Parker, Saha. If Ade isnt signed permanantly, and Defoe wants to leave (who can blame him), then we are left with just Saha as a striker. We have a totally unbalanced squad - no cover for Lennon, Walker, Bale, or Ade.

I personally feel H is not the right guy to take us to the next level. We need to appoint a young manager with a three year plan and give him the budget to take us forward. Any new manager is a risk, but our last two end of season collapses, (and his comments to the press) have sealed H's fate imo. He has done a reasonable job, but how many of us would have been really sad if he had got the England job and we'd have got plenty of compo?

Bassong - looked like a really good signing at the time. Had great potential to be the real deal with a lot of people looking at him. Most fans backed that signing.
Pallacios - most important signing at that time. Gave a bit of bit and solidity to our MF that we greatly needed and was a massive part in moving us to where we are now. Crouch - scored some very valuable goals and was a very effective part of how we played, and won, for a season or so
Defoe - always scored goals and was important, especially when we signed him. Lets not forget the position we were in when Harry joined and what needed to happen Pienaar - A deal that just didnt work out. Few fans were against signing Pienaar - he was one of those names that always came up as a good option.
Gallas - are you serious? Been the most important signing for our defence over the last couple of years in terms of performance, experience and influence.
Parker - im not even going to humour you with a response to this!!! Or do you think he has been useless?

Nelsen and Saha -agree. Odd signings.
That said, Bassong was out - so we needed "a body". Saha - hhhmmmmmmmmm. Guess he did score a couple of goals! Again, just "a body" to fill a hole. Not exactly a marquee signing, but was never suppose to be.

 

[milo]

Why exactly is it 'rubbish'?

Did he commit to us when England was very much a possibility - a.k.a. the 'people's choice :lol: ? So why should we do it now? Why should we be loyal to a man who not at one single point before Hodgson got the job came out and said - 'I'm Tottenham Hotspur's manager for another 1.5 years - not interested at the moment'. Much like Moyes, Hodgson, etc. all did.

I tell you why - because if the FA approached him - he would have dropped us like a smelly sock even if we finished 3rd. So now we should go and offer him a long-term 4m a year contract because his exit plan back-fired?

He has a contract for a season - we can review it afterwards based on performance, etc. without making uncertain financial commitments.

Based on last season's success he deserves another season and possibly another 2 after that if we keep improving. Based on last season he also deserves to be dealt with carefully as far as long-term contractual commitments are concerned.

Stability is in the clubs best interests. Uncertainty over the manager's long term future will make it harder for us to sign players, make it less likely that the chairman will sanction big signings, harder to convince current players to commit their future to the club and give the manager a harder job to assert his authority on the team.

If Levy does not know now whether he trusts Redknapp to take the team forward then he will never know.

Stick or twist? The decision needs to be made now and everyone needs to know what that is. Anything else is not in the interests of the club.

 

[bookhouseboy]

The view from the Harry-GHod-supporters seems to be that everyone not that impressed by him is a gloryhunting teenager; from what I've seen on this forum and other forums that's not the case - usually there are more reflections about the whole Redknapp-pacage from our "camp".

But since my impression about those very pro-Redknapp is that they seems to be the same that looks at Modrics goals and assist-stats and think he's rather mediocre, and only judge our league-performance based on the table and thinks it's pretty triffic - so maybe it goes both ways.

 

[ArcspacE]

Uncertainty over the manager's long term future will make it harder for us to sign players,

There is very little proof this has actually been the case in the past.

make it less likely that the chairman will sanction big signings,

Well, he didn't 'sanction' big signings 2.5 years ago nor last year either - so I strongly doubt Arry's contract length must have been the defining factor. Wages was most likely (and still would be, imv) the major stumbling block here

harder to convince current players to commit their future to the club

See point 1. Milo, the main factor is always money, after a few seasons comes the CL if we aren't regular participants, then they generally want to leave. Which one of our current players has signed an extension based on Redknapp's presence better yet his contract length.

and give the manager a harder job to assert his authority on the team.

Disagree - a strong character (which appears to be one of his main positives according to general opinion) can assert himself in any given context - it's not like he'd be working for free or been told he'd definitely not be offered an extension. Most people would work extra hard to prove a point to their employer on a 1 year contract.

If Levy does not know now whether he trusts Redknapp to take the team forward then he will never know.

Stick or twist? The decision needs to be made now and everyone needs to know what that is. Anything else is not in the interests of the club.

I think Levy is playing the long game here. Another season would offer far better objective analysis if we are able to consistently make 'the' step or just miss out yet again. Consistency has many derivates.

 

[Raziel]

Stability is in the clubs best interests. Uncertainty over the manager's long term future will make it harder for us to sign players, make it less likely that the chairman will sanction big signings, harder to convince current players to commit their future to the club and give the manager a harder job to assert his authority on the team.

If Levy does not know now whether he trusts Redknapp to take the team forward then he will never know.

Stick or twist? The decision needs to be made now and everyone needs to know what that is. Anything else is not in the interests of the club.

You say this, then discuss changing the manager as if it would have no effect on the club stability?

Here's the question, what percentage chance do you think that we could

1. Get another manager that is definetely better than Harry
2. That manager will manager to be successful immediately at Tottenham?

 

[ArcspacE]

Here's the question, what percentage chance do you think that we could

1. Get another manager that is definetely better than Harry
2. That manager will manager to be successful immediately at Tottenham?

1. I'd say around 75% based on our current position and increasing image as a club. We are not exactly Wigan Atheltic.

2. A maiden season of transtion would be acceptable, imv - after that he'd have little excuses

 

[BrainOfLevy]

There is very little proof this has actually been the case in the past.



Well, he didn't 'sanction' big signings 2.5 years ago nor last year either - so I strongly doubt Arry's contract length must have been the defining factor. Wages was most likely (and still would be, imv) the major stumbling block here



See point 1. Milo, the main factor is always money, after a few seasons comes the CL if we aren't regular particiapants, then they generally want to leave. Which one of our current players has signed an extension based on Redknapp's presence better yet his contract length.



Disagree - a strong character (which appears to be one of his main positives according to general opinion) can assert himself in any given context - it's not like he'd be working for free or been told he'd definitely not be offered an extension. Most people would work extra hard to prove a point to their employer on a 1 year contract.



I think Levy is playing the long game here. Another season would offer far better objective analysis if we are able to consistently make 'the' step or just miss out yet again. Consistency has many derivates.

I actually think long term transfer planning/big signings is a point you are probably right on. Players will sign for the money, and the reason we haven't spent too big is that we have a good squad that to improve would take some very top level players that don't come cheap. And on committing our own players long term - Sandro signed a contract amid all the speculation this season so again it's all about the money and whether the manager is going to be there or not is largely an excuse I would say. If we offered Modric 200k and Tony Pulis was coming to replace Redknapp next season I reckon he'd still sign the deal.

But the absolute key I think that is right in terms of backing Harry is his authority. If players know a manager is leaving it just creates a nervous atmosphere around the whole club. Us this year are an example. Fergie retiring is an example. Blanc before going to France is an example. It never works out well. Unless it's a caretaker, but the whole dynamic there is different and isn't what are are talking about.

He should be backed so the whole club is pulling in one direction.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You say this, then discuss changing the manager as if it would have no effect on the club stability?

Here's the question, what percentage chance do you think that we could

1. Get another manager that is definetely better than Harry
2. That manager will manager to be successful immediately at Tottenham?

Stability in terms of getting everyone at the club pulling in one direction.

See us with Jol and Arnesen vs us with Jol and Commoli. Completely different.

 

[ArcspacE]

We don't need the club to be in a state of limbo again where we are weighing up whether he is good enough or not. He either is or he isn't. He has the remaining year but most contracts are renewed before, or are rolling, probably to remove the exact situation I am talking about where uncertainty creeps in. It's the absolute worst thing for a manager, especially one who is supposed to be challenging at the top of the table where the margins are so fine.

We were in limbo because of him, don't forget that - not Levy, so why should the latter play a fool now when Redknapp settles for second best?

You seem to be confusing (apologies if not the case) a fundamental point here. Can't speak for many others but personally I have / had no issue with him taking the England job (understandable desire, etc.) - it is how he handled the post-Capello frenzy which did the damage, imv. Could have killed it off the day after Newcaste's game and simply negotiated quitely at the end of the season should they had chosen him. The FA waited for WBA to be safe and then approached Hodgson - so in our case it would have most likely been a case of waiting for us to be 3rd for secure 4th, etc - i.e. wait for our log position to be mathematically finalised.

No - instead we had a media toss-off brick storm via buddy-journalists, paper columns, familiy members, car window lean-down interviews, etc. Coincidence? Righto.

In addition - what gives notion to the somewhat bizarre logic that having a year left on your managerial contract automatically translates into doubt and impending release? Give what we've been given earlier - play a smart game. If we offer him a new deal which backfires it would cost us around 15m in pay offs next summer. Massive amount for a club of our financial stature, bear in mind.

Again I ask - why should we commit 20m Pounds Sterling to a man who didn't want to comitt to us 4 months ago?

 

[Raziel]

1. I'd say around 75% based on our current position and increasing image as a club. We are not exactly Wigan Atheltic.

2. A maiden season of transtion would be acceptable, imv - after that he'd have little excuses

So, I think that is where we fundementally disagree

- I don't think that there is anywhere near a 75% chance that the next manager will be better than Harry, based on the simple facts that Harry has been better statistically and results wise than anyone we have had for 30 odd years in most things, and even 50 odd years in others, why all of a sudden the next guy's will likely to be, the tune of 75% , better?

- You aware a season of transition (lets say 7th/8th) could cost the club 40M+?

See, that's my issue

- I don't think Harry is going to win us the league (I could see a CC/FA Cup win), and I don't think he is going to do much more than 5th/4th (but I do think he will keep us there.
- I also think firing Harry will probably cost the club anywhere between 35-65M (when you add his payoff, potential transition season, and the player in/out that inevitably happens with new manager)
- Even if the new manager is better than Harry, I don't think it gets you more than a 1 place improvement in the PL, because of our spend disadvantage vs. Cheat$ki and the two Manchesters.
- Risk/reward of that scenario, especially in light of the next 3 years with stadium build, from a BUSINESS perspective, just makes no sense.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm sure he does it on purpose just to annoy us

Considering the number of targets we've had that have evaded us due to our refusal to do business before the last day of the window, I'd say it annoys him a fair bit as well.

Our vampiric chairman only spreads his wings and sails into the Transylvanian night when he pleases, I suppose.

 

[Raziel]

We were in limbo because of him, don't forget that - not Levy, so why should the latter play a fool now when Redknapp settles for second best?

In addition - what gives notion to the somewhat bizarre logic that having a year left on your managerial contract automatically translates into doubt and impending release? Give what we've been given earlier - play a smart game. If we offer him a new deal which backfires it would cost us around 15m in pay offs next summer. Massive amount for a club of our financial stature, bear in mind.
Again I ask - why should we commit 20m Pounds Sterling to a man who didn't want to comitt to us 4 months ago?

- Not if the contract specifies certain results, e.g. 4th or better, yes we need to pay you off if we decide to fire you, something less, we can terminate contract
- Because (and maybe this is the piece that gets people), the Harry/Tottenham relationship is not a you/girl type relationship where you are tinkled off because she flirted with someone else at the bar, it's a business relationship, and as long as it produces the results the club is happy with (see point above), it makes sense to continue it.