Wriggly
Banned
I love this idea, but the large concrete divide should actually be a big circle where no-one can get in our out and I get to select the people who are in there with me.
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Harry Redknapp: The Aftermath
- Thread starter mick cooper
- Start date
I love this idea, but the large concrete divide should actually be a big circle where no-one can get in our out and I get to select the people who are in there with me.
This is a discussion forum. Single viewpoint threads are pretty pointless.
mick cooper
Neil Sullivan
I understand that, but its hardly likely to induce harmony.
Particularly when wriggly posts thinly veiled threats about being locked in places with people of his choosing, something he has done on other occasions
Leeds Spur
Banned
I will refrain from cum guzzling comments!
(except in the vice den)
(except in the vice den)
Wriggly
Banned
I will refrain from cum guzzling comments!
(except in the vice den)
Me too, and I dont want locked up with anyone, especially in a jail cell with a grizzly bear.
southstand1882
Mitchell Thomas
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Does anyone remember last year when we looked like missing out on "Holy Grail" and many of our experts were saying we should get AVB? Who would realisticly take over if HR went? We don't have a Sugar Daddy, Cash is needed for new stadium, and unlikely we will be in the "Super UEFA Cup" is Chelsea in it. David Moyes? Martinez? Rodgers? Carlos Managerio
pretty much how i feel (and id likely wager most of the people who have been outspoken against HR feel the same also)
So we went from Jol (almost got CL football instead of Arsenal, but got 5th twice in a row).... Jol was expected to challenge for CL football due to the money we spent in the run up to his last season, but we didn't really get over the Berbatov thing... But we went from that to Ramos, he won us a cup and so we qualified for Europe again... Then he went and in came Harry... We were outspending most other teams in the league at this point.... Every year we were spending big money. So Harry comes in and you expect to be mid-table, not even challenging for the Europa league?
This is exactly why I disagree with you.
You don't rate many of our players, but love Harry... So in your eyes, we've probably got a squad about as good as Everton's, Harry has effectively taken Everton to 4th place this season assuming nothing goes really badly wrong in the last 2 games. So in your eyes, Harry has overachieved and done a Pardew style managerial performance... In my eyes, Harry has seriously underachieved with the squad, because the squad is far better than Arsenal and we let 3rd slip to nearly miss out on CL football... I think one of the best managers in the world, Mourinho, SAF, etc would have had us competing for the title until the end... I think one of the clueless maangers might have had us in Liverpool's position... The logic that we're Spurs and don't challenge for titles is strange to me, surely the name of the team doesn't matter at all, it's all about the squad? Emirates Marketing Project have been relegated more than almost everyone else, they have been utter brick for years and they now have the best squad in the league, that says to me, that they shouldn't be happy with almost missing out on CL football this year... If Wigan had the Barca or Real Madrid squad, they should be winning the league, 2nd would be complete and utter failure on an incredible level. Even if they lost it to Emirates Marketing Project, Wigan should have won the league easily... The name "Wigan" isn't important, the squad is important.
That's my biggest issue with the logic that we never win the title so we shouldn't be in the top 4... To flip this, if Manchester United had the squad of West Brom, they should not be finishing anywhere fudging near the top 4. Manchester United shouldn't even get anywhere near the Europa League places.
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
Leeds - you are totally wrong.
You dont just slag off a manager, the same way you dont just slag off a player, after just a few bad games. Also I found it absurd, and I pointed this out in another thread, that some on here blamed Harry for the wages that we were paying. Citing that as a reason was just ridiculous especially when a) it isnt in harrys hands its in Levys hands and b) with success comes players who expect new contracts, revised terms, and additional bonus'.
I am a big harry follower because im not forgetting the previous 20 games whereas some on here forgot the 20 games this season let alone the three years before that where we have played in the biggest European competition, we have finished fourth, fifth, and hopefully fourth/third this season.
That for us is SUCCESS
You dont just slag off a manager, the same way you dont just slag off a player, after just a few bad games. Also I found it absurd, and I pointed this out in another thread, that some on here blamed Harry for the wages that we were paying. Citing that as a reason was just ridiculous especially when a) it isnt in harrys hands its in Levys hands and b) with success comes players who expect new contracts, revised terms, and additional bonus'.
I am a big harry follower because im not forgetting the previous 20 games whereas some on here forgot the 20 games this season let alone the three years before that where we have played in the biggest European competition, we have finished fourth, fifth, and hopefully fourth/third this season.
That for us is SUCCESS
We are Tottenham
Kasey Keller
Will Harry hang on as our manager till the press fans and media get Hodgson sacked.
that'll suit him nicely..
that's the worry and were worth more than that.
Southcote Spur
Jason Dozzell
Playing your "Devil's Advocate", it is naive for me to think that success is all about us winning titles and trophies? In my 45 years of supporting Spurs, I have never witnessed a title winning team at WHL. All I have to go on is my Dad’s recollections of how great the ‘Double winning side was (and Dad is 74 by the way)!
I guess the majority of us have succumbed to the media driven “Champions League” hype and spin that they have been drip-feeding us football fans for years, in that qualification for this competition is a sign of success?
For me, if you do not win titles and trophies, you are not successful. However, what I want to see is signs of progress towards those times where we can update the old colour photos of the last time we won the league?
If Redknapp (HR) delivers us a 4th placed finish, he has taken us back to where we were two years ago. A 3rd placed finish would be considered to be progress and if achieved, we should all throw our support behind him? However, another 5th placed finish would show no signs of improvement and based on what happened to Martin Jol, it would be churlish of us if we did not seriously consider our managerial options?
Lets hope for all of our sakes that there are reasons to be cheerful on both 13th and 19th May?
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
Fuego said:
GHod you're hard work. I thought I made it clear, but let me break this down to baby steps just for you.
1) Firstly just to get some facts straight. What has Jol got to do with Harry exactly? Harry took over from Ramos, did he not? And challenging for Europe via the Premiership you say? Not the year Jol got sacked we weren't. Nor the year after when Harry took over. Harry didn't take over when we were 5th if I recall correctly. He took over when we were almost a quarter of the way through the season and were lying rock bottom.
2) You completely missed more point or are trying to twist my words. Let me, once more, clarify. I did NOT want Redknapp as Spurs Manager. The REASON I didn't want Redknapp as Manager is because I thought he'd stabilise us in mid-table and therefore wouldn't last two seasons. WHY? It's pretty fudging obvious why I wouldn't want him if I believed that is all he can achieve isn't it? Now I could spell it out more clearly for you, but I'd be interested in seeing if a bright boy like you can work it out for himself. But just in case you're not bright, maybe I should give you a further hint. I take offence at you trying to insinuate I would be happy with mid-table. Now, how do you answer the question?
Ah, so I insinuate above that I thought Redknapp wasn't good enough for Spurs because he wouldn't get us past mid-table and you disagree with me? Is that right?
I do not love Harry. I just don't agree with the amount of ungrateful abuse he gets from a lot of our fans. I have said many times that Harry isn't a world class manager. I also have said many times that even if we had a world class manager I genuinely don't think we'd be title contenders whilst we are operating under the financial constraints we do (and I do not disagree with Levy that these constraints need to be in place). I believe that our place in the order of things should probably be 6th. If Spurs are above 6th, we're punching above our weight. This for me is pragmatic.
I'll repeat my reasoning AGAIN, even though I have done so in other threads already. City & Chelsea aren't playing by the rules. With the cash they can splash, they're 1st & 2nd. Man Utd not only have the experience, but they are possibly the biggest club in the world (if playing by the rules) and should definitely be 3rd. Realistically Arsenal and Liverpool have bigger stadiums, more fans nationally and globally. Liverpool pip Arsenal, and should be 4th. Arsenal are 5th. Then there is the rest of us, which I genuinely believe Spurs should be leading the way.
Utter nonsense. I have said before that our squad isn't as good as OUR fans believe it to be. Our players aren't as good as OUR fans believe them to be. And also we don't rate players from other teams as highly as we should. Are we better than Everton? Yes, we are. I have said in OTHER threads (I really do suggest you actually read my posts before wading in making wild spurious accusations and attempt a character assasination on my views. You're out of your depth mate, go play mine is bigger than yours with someone else) that I believe Spurs have the 4th/5th best team/squad in the country. I believe Chelsea have the best team, and have woefully underachieved. City have the best squad and second best team, and even if they win the title this year they've made bloody hard work of it. Man Utd have the third best squad and team. Ourselves and Arsenal are close, too close for me to call. I think we probably have a better team, they probably have a better squad but there is hardly anything in it. The rest? Are behind us. Liverpool should be a lot closer to us than they are, Saudi Sportswashing Machine have done a fantastic job and shouldn't be as close to us (or Arsenal or Chelsea) as they are. Massively impressive season by them.
In my eyes? You some sort of fudging mind reader? I don't believe Harry has OVER achieved. What I disagree with is that Harry has UNDER achieved. I think 4th is right for us. If we finish 3rd? Then yes, I believe that's an overachievement BUT that will be as much down to Chelsea having a disasterous season as us doing anything extraordinary.
Far better than Arsenal? How so exactly? In fact don't bother answering that question. As I stated above way too many of our fans over rate our players and under rate the oppositions players.
Win the league with this squad on Football Manager did you?! This team and squad winning the league :lol: Especially with our defence!! You're right about SAF though, 8 games to go, 8pt lead in the Premiership. He'd never throw that away. Oh, hang on :lol: And all due respect, Harry isn't in the same class as SAF. SAF is a class below Mourinho. To judge Harry compared to them is fudgeiing ridiculous. They're probably two of the best five managers in the world.
But, but.....throughout all your posts you've insinuated that Harry IS clueless?! Which is it?
It's so easy on Football Manager isn't it? I can't believe that the real Managers aren't as good as you in real life, as you are on that game. That's the only answer I can think of if you can't see that Spurs don't challenge for the title. Spurs not challenging for the title isn't an opinion, or a perception. It's a FACT. We haven't been serious title contenders since the early 70's. We've always been that little bit short.
As for the squad comment. No, it's actually about the first eleven and THEN the squad. Spurs's first XI and squad isn't of title standard. I genuinely believe our midfield is good enough, but we still lack a quality striker and we really lack a quality defence.
Bad example, they're not playing by the rules. They've spanked millions. They should be one of three current teams whose Champion's League qualification is guaranteed (Chelsea and Utd being the other two). A better example for the purpose of your argument is Saudi Sportswashing Machine.
I'm really not sure why you've got your bee in your bonnet about this and are stating the obvious. I'll state it too. Wigan COULD win the title IF they had a squad like City's. Now, realistically are they ever going to have a squad like City's is the question you SHOULD be answering. And the answer is? Probably not, unless they get a sugar daddy as rich as City's.
As for Spurs, could we win the title in the near future IF we had the best Manager in the world? Possibly, but even with the best Manager in the world it's unlikely. People hate to admit, but money talks. During this era of Champions League being four teams from England, and all that lovely Sky money, the days of a team being organically assembled over four or five seasons and then winning the League is gone. There will be no more Forest like Division One victories. Even the organically grown superpowers like Arsenal and Liverpool are no match for the City's, Chelsea's of this world on a regular basis. Even Utd, the biggest grossing club in the world, are struggling to keep up.
Unless a Sugar Daddy comes in, or the money dries up from Sky/Champion's League then Spurs are doing fantastically well to break into the top four. Any Manager that regularly has us competing for top four finishes is alright by me.
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
I think the definition of success changes over time. Yeah a few years ago a fourth/third placed finish was not success, hell even second wasnt a success. BUT time changes things, the Associations have changed the path to success.
I think Levy is far happier with a fourth/third place finish than the FA Cup. Its the way football has gone and, whether you agree to disagree, it will continue to go that way.
So yeah it is success I guess if we finish in the CL spots.
I disagree that if we finish fourth we would be where we were a couple of years back for two reasons a) the hindrances we have had to our season such as Harrys court case, heart problem and England not to mention the terrible start and also the crappy summer with the Modric saga and b) the competition is much fiercer this season round
Jol was manager from 2004 until 2007. Harry took over in 2008. - Harry did indeed take over from Ramos, Ramos didn't have a full season in charge. Ramos took over after Jol's last season started badly... Our time under Ramos wasn't a complete disaster until we won the cup and forgot how to play until Ramos was sacked... So to answer your question, if you don't think the manager from 04 to 07 has anything to do with the manager in 08, you're going to be stuck in a world of absolutes.
For example, Mourinho manages X club and they win the league, Fat Sam takes over mid season and they finish 14th, SAF takes over from Fat Sam and he finishes 10th the next year. Refusing to look at what the club had done under the last manager to have a full season leaves you with the conclusion that SAF is doing an excellent job by finishing 4 places higher than Fat Sam.
What I'm trying to say is that SAF's 10th has to be compared to Mourinho's 1st. If a team in 2007 began the season with the objective "qualify for the CL", you shouldn't just forget everything because the 2007's team objective changed midway through the season to "don't get relegated".
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No, we weren't the year Jol got sacked because we didn't start the season well. We weren't in Harry's first season either because Ramos didn't start well.
You said you didn't want Redknapp at first.
For the record, you taking offence at something isn't a question. If your question was " It's pretty fudging obvious why I wouldn't want him if I believed that is all he can achieve isn't it?" I would argue that your choice of words makes you sound optimistic about being mid table:
If that was optimism when it came to Redknapp because you thought it was likely that he'd be so bad he couldn't get us to mid-table, then you must have thought he was one of the worst managers in the game, but ok. Why did you bother trying to argue with the Jol point when you could have easily said "yes, I knew our squad was better than mid-table, which is why I would have been disappointed if Harry hadn't been able to get us higher"?
You can't just ignore parts of my post, deliberately misunderstand other parts and exaggerate stupidity.
I'll try again:
I said I disagreed with this attitude... If we had never ever ever ever won anything and had just been promoted to the PL in our first season, I'd still expect to win the league if we had the 20 best players in the world. By contrast, if we had won the league every year but we sold all our players and played 14 year old girls, I'd expect to be relegated. My view on what we can achieve this season, next season and the season after that have absolutely nothing at all to do with how brick we were for years. Emirates Marketing Project have been brick for years but have players that dictate that they aim to win the league.
Sorry, it was a slight exaggeration, the correct wording should have been "is pro Harry". It wasn't meant as an insult.
I probably should have used Liverpool for my example instead of Everton, but Everton are currently a better team than Liverpool. Liverpool have more money than us though, so if a Liverpool team that spent 100-125 mil finished 4th, people wouldn't be calling their manager "Manager of the Year". Maybe I should have used Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but they actually do have a good team.
You believe Chelsea have the best team and second best squad in the league, that's very different from what the majority of people think, so I don't know how you can call this an attempted character assassination. People rate teams differently, that's sort of your point.
My point is that you don't rate our squad as highly as a lot of other people do, so Harry to you might be overachieving rather than underachieving. Don't get too hung up on the Everton comment, it was an example used to illustrate my point rather than me saying you think we're 7th, 8th or 9th best in the league.
Apparently. I was damn close. My entire fudging point was: "You don't rate our squad as highly as I do, especially when compared to the fudge ups every other team in this league has had. You probably think Harry has done well this season. I think Harry has underachieved, you disagree."
So when all that boils down to whether you think we've overachieved or have done what we should have done, that's pretty close. You almost agree with my mind reading.
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The fans might, but do you remember North London Derby day? The media were kind enough to make Spurs-Arsenal mashup teams, some people only put in RVP, some put in 2-3 players, but the media agreed we had far better players... The media isn't exactly neutral, but the fudging Arsenal fans had to concede that there's no way they'd get 6 of their 11 into the North London 11.
If we overrate our players, surely the Arsenal fans overrate theirs? So surely this works both ways.
If you don't want to hear my own reasons comparing players, fine. But they had their worst start to a season for 58 years, they crashed out of all competitions ages ago, they had Clichy, Fabregas, Nasri, their backup LB (Troure or whatever, the guy that can't get into QPR's team)... Those guys all left... Wiltshere is injured... Bendtner is on loan with a bunch of other players... By contrast, this is our best Spurs team for over 50 years. What would it take for us to be so much better than them that you'd actually admit it?
You just said SAF had the third best team and third best squad. So I don't see why it's so difficult to imagine us competing for the title until the end of the season. Harry had us competing until we played Wolves, or maybe even Arsenal. So it's not a huge leap to imagine us not imploding, is it? Competing doesn't mean "winning", it means being in the title race around April.
King was awesome until the 2nd City game, that's over half a season. Walker and BAE are better than United's pairing of Rafael and Evra, better than Arsenal's Sanga and Gibbs/Santos and I prefer them to Ivanovic + Cole and Zabeletta/Richards + Clichy/Kolorov, you might not...
Of course, SAF and Mourinho are two of the best five managers in the world and Harry can't be compared to them. I did say "one of the best managers in the world, Mourinho, SAF, etc."
I tried to go to the other extreme of Mourinho, SAF, etc.. Steve Kean came to mind, maybe little Sam... But I couldn't actually think of a manager bad enough to be considered "the worst manager in the world", surely a manager like that doesn't stick around long enough to become a household name. (Even Terry Connor isn't anywhere near that bad.)
Harry is around the Charlie Adam mark, I think... He's got some talent, he's good at some things, he's bad at some things, but he's not world class.
My issue with Harry isn't that I think he's the worst manager ever, I just think Spurs would do a lot better with a better manager. Same deal with Dawson for example, he's not entirely useless, but I'd like our starting CB to be better.
Harry's faults are obvious to all of us by now, but we've all seen how he generally brings in the right type of players, he has the players happy and confident most of the time and he has done a good job at Spurs until now. I just want someone that'll do a fudging excellent job at Spurs in the future. This squad has slowly become better and better, this may be our peak if we can't replace Ade properly in the summer, but at this stage, with these players, we should be doing better.
Even looking at the very start of the season, we had Crouch and co, we got in Parker and Ade, that alone brought up the level of our first team hugely. How many more players do we have to add before CL football stops being a bonus and starts being something a manager should get or have to answer some questions?
2 Football Manager comments in one post, really?
It doesn't fudging matter. If we have the best 80 players in the world, I want the title, CL and every other cup we enter and anything else would be a fudging failure of epic level. This isn't the same team as 35-5 years ago. It doesn't matter how brick we were in the distant past, it only matters how good/bad we are now when deciding what we can achieve. The opposite of this would be Liverpool... It doesn't matter how good they were in the past, now they're mid table and brick. No amount of being good in the past is going to make their players any better... The only good thing being good in the past has, is the brand generates money for them, but if the money doesn't end up making the squad better, they're going to be brick.
My entire point is that there's no rule that says "if you haven't won the title, you can't win the title". If the entire Barca team came to Spurs, we should be winning the title. If every other PL club sells all their players and has to play random kids from the street, we should win the title. History is great, but it doesn't make a team better or worse.
Ok, so us being utter brick for years shouldn't matter. History doesn't affect how your team performs.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine have competed for the PL before, they've also been relegated. Blackburn have won the PL but are going to get relegated, so I didn't use those two, because I'm trying to say that history doesn't determine whether a team can or can't compete for a league title.
Just competing, not even winning would be something. Money does talk, but we have money to spend. Progress would have been:
Year 1: Fight to finish 4th and just make it. Buy players that refuse to come to a club without CL football.
Year 2: Make CL comfortably. Buy players that want to compete for titles.
Year 3: Compete for the title. Buy world class players that only come to big clubs.
Year 4: Win title.
Finishing 6th this year would have meant a fudging insane amount of money lost, it would have meant we would have struggled to sign players that want to play in the CL, aside from paying them more, we'd have nothing to bribe them with...
If Harry would have just stayed in 3rd and had a few bad results (like City and United both did), we could have finished about 10 points behind them, but 10 points ahead of Arsenal (worst start to a season for 58 years and they lost to Wigan at home, drew with Stoke and drew with Chelsea's 2nd team at home in their last 3 games, that's 2 points from 9, so we'd be allowed a small blip and could still have finished way ahead of them.)
If he'd have got the England job after that, good luck to him, we could have brought in players that wanted to compete for the league title and a very very good manager that wanted to go to a CL club.
But unless Norwich or West Brom do us a massive favour, we will have to rely on Bayern Munich doing us a favour to get CL football, even then, we'll have to qualify.
I'm not saying we'd have won the title next year, I'd be shocked if Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, United and Arsenal don't all strengthen by a lot. But this was our chance, they all fudged up to varying levels and we blew it.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
It's interesting to me how utterly polarized this whole thing has become.
Further, it's interesting to me how the people who claim only "they" love Harry are seemingly unable to see his faults. Chaps, FFS, even Jesus Christ had faults, so can none of you accept that Harry Redknapp has made mistakes this season AND last? Further, is it impossible to believe that there "might" be "another" man behind the man one we all know publicly?
Suggesting as such has people out with their fudging pitchforks!!!!
One thing about the Bolton win which hasn't been mentioned so far as I can see by anyone other than me...it was the first time in nearly 10 games that Harry has told Bale and Lennon to STAY wide for most of the match and STAY on their respective sides; simple, honest instruction which allowed us to break so clinically. Now, I'm glad he's finally got his head wrapped back around the simple concepts of our game, and upwards and onwards and all that, but seriously, are you lot going to keep on with these ludicrous comebacks and put-downs to anyone who questions what's been going on for the 10 games prior? Before anyone kicks off again, I asked the question right after the emirates, I asked it again a few weeks late and was incredulous that NO-ONE had asked him about the decisions he made that day.
Again, he and Spurs will always have my backing...Harry as long as he continues to be our manager!
Further, it's interesting to me how the people who claim only "they" love Harry are seemingly unable to see his faults. Chaps, FFS, even Jesus Christ had faults, so can none of you accept that Harry Redknapp has made mistakes this season AND last? Further, is it impossible to believe that there "might" be "another" man behind the man one we all know publicly?
Suggesting as such has people out with their fudging pitchforks!!!!
One thing about the Bolton win which hasn't been mentioned so far as I can see by anyone other than me...it was the first time in nearly 10 games that Harry has told Bale and Lennon to STAY wide for most of the match and STAY on their respective sides; simple, honest instruction which allowed us to break so clinically. Now, I'm glad he's finally got his head wrapped back around the simple concepts of our game, and upwards and onwards and all that, but seriously, are you lot going to keep on with these ludicrous comebacks and put-downs to anyone who questions what's been going on for the 10 games prior? Before anyone kicks off again, I asked the question right after the emirates, I asked it again a few weeks late and was incredulous that NO-ONE had asked him about the decisions he made that day.
Again, he and Spurs will always have my backing...Harry as long as he continues to be our manager!
It's hard to know what to make of that. Bale did roam early on, so it's hard to tell whether Harry will go into the next game instructing Bale to stay on the left or give it X minutes on the left or what. Bolton weren't deep in their defensive shape for a lot of the second half, so maybe Bale was on the left and we broke once, he noticed the space and decided to stay there... Alternatively, Harry might have said something.
Regardless of how we all feel about Harry, I'm fairly sure about 95% of us all want Bale to stay on the left for at least the vast majority of matches, so seeing Bale on the left a lot more often in future would be great... At the end of the season, if someone asks why Bale only stuck to the left more after the England situation was resolved, we'll see how everyone reacts.
That said, he could be all over the place at Villa, especially as they played two right backs at WHL, so we'll see what happens there.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
I absolutely agree we cannot be sure there was firm instruction, but I am giving Harry the benefit of the doubt in believing that he did instruct Bale and Lennon to really stake their positions and not (in essence) fudge about...another interesting thing to see, was how fluid the ball was in moving from defense to attack quickly. Both Modric and Sandro did an excellent job of hitting players quickly with fast, simple passing...I think there's no doubt that when Scotty plays, we gain a warrior but "sometimes" lose impetus as he holds the ball too long...