Eric Dier

[Gazza]

Loyalty works two ways though. If a manager behaves like that, then the remaining players don't push through the pain barrier or don't take calls from other clubs who are fishing.

I'll stop you right there ... there is NO loyalty in football

 

[Bishop]

Loyalty works two ways though. If a manager behaves like that, then the remaining players don't push through the pain barrier or don't take calls from other clubs who are fishing.

It has always worked both ways. That's why I have no Ill will towards players when they want to leave. Likewise when the club decides a player is no longer for them they move them on.

Dier is fully entitled to stay for the length of his contract and I don't believe he should be criticised for that. However I also don't think he should be playing for us, especially in this system. If he's willing to wait and even try and work his way back into the side that's up to him and I don't think we should be giving him corn for doing so. Or a new contract!

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

 

[scaramanga]

Typically the agent is paid by the player. The agent typically carries out his client’s wishes (else the player changes agencies).

So why does our club (and all other PL clubs as far as I can see) also pay agents?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

So why does our club (and all other PL clubs as far as I can see) also pay agents?

Is that agent fees as in the cut the player has to pay their agent (but we pay it instead), or is that us paying agents that we use to act on our behalf in deals, which seems to happen quite a bit?
I'm think the former used to happen (maybe still does) but I don't know if the "fees to agents" numbers capture both, or differentiate?

 

[Finney Is Back]

So why does our club (and all other PL clubs as far as I can see) also pay agents?

For the same reason that anyone pays any sort of agent, to help facilitate deals. Agents can act for the club or for the player. It is a fallacy to think that agents don’t (mainly) carry out their client’s wishes.

 

[Kandi1977]

Typically the agent is paid by the player. The agent typically carries out his client’s wishes (else the player changes agencies).

One would think so, as that follows normal logic, but in reality it's different. Often all other parties need to pay the agent. Exactly who's paying who is debatable, but in reality the money comes from the transfer fee.

 

[thfcsteff]

I find it strange that some think not giving a player a place in the first team squad is a bad way to treat a player, after all it’s not like we wouldn’t let him go to another club where he might get a place in the squad. Dier is unsuited to Postecoglou’s tactics and therefore shouldn’t be part of the squad. There is no room for sentiment simply because the player has been here for a while, he has been well rewarded financially while at Spurs and it doesn’t appear that we’re exactly having to fight off bids for him which is a good indication that he’s not particularly highly rated as a player.

You have ignored the part of your post on this where you said he should be 'stuck in the u-21s'...that specific part of your post was what I was referring to. There are better -and smarter- ways of dealing with an experienced pro than simply not giving him a squad number and forcing him to work with the u-21s. Not only does it send a bad message to the u-21s (this is purgatory!), it is the sort of treatment which would raise the eyebrow of many pros.

Nothing to do with emotion!

 

[thfcsteff]

Exactly ...emotions should be reserved for the fans ... the manager should be like a surgeon; precise, accurate and as sharp as a scalpel... show emotions at the end of the season basking in glory! Go on Ange you have my vote for dropping Dier alone on that decision... like dier the person, not so much rated as a player.

(sigh) Again, my response to Finney had nothing to do with Ange deciding Dier is not part of his plans!!!

 

[Finney Is Back]

You have ignored the part of your post on this where you said he should be 'stuck in the u-21s'...that specific part of your post was what I was referring to. There are better -and smarter- ways of dealing with an experienced pro than simply not giving him a squad number and forcing him to work with the u-21s. Not only does it send a bad message to the u-21s (this is purgatory!), it is the sort of treatment which would raise the eyebrow of many pros.

Nothing to do with emotion!

If a player is not getting a first team squad number then he shouldn’t be training with the first team. If Dier decides to stay instead of moving somewhere else to play football then his experience might be good for the under 21s. I really am puzzled why you’d want a player without a squad number and no chance of playing for the first team training with the first team group?

 

[thfcsteff]

If a player is not getting a first team squad number then he shouldn’t be training with the first team. If Dier decides to stay instead of moving somewhere else to play football then his experience might be good for the under 21s. I really am puzzled why you’d want a player without a squad number and no chance of playing for the first team training with the first team group?

I greatly enjoy your posts, and often agree, but please, don't try and gaslight me with regards to your original point. Here's what you said:

"He would be a disaster in Ange’s high line, where the CBs have to be able to defend the ball over the top into the channels and sticking him in the under 21s would probably lead to him accepting a loan."

If you can articulate to me clearly how your suggestion would not be implemented as a punitive move for not leaving freely, I am all eyes. You clearly would be looking to use a U-21 stint as a move to force him out on loan (due to his seniority).

 

[Lilbaz]

Typically the agent is paid by the player. The agent typically carries out his client’s wishes (else the player changes agencies).

Nope. The club pays the agents fee even if he is working for the player. Which is a joke.

Simon jordan and an agent had a big chat about it on talksport a while back. The player does pay the tax though.

Players have no idea what their agents are paid as they don't pay them.

The excuse of why was because of double taxation. Yet the music or film industries, the artist/actor pays their agent.

I know fifa have allegedly limited agents fees, but (for me) the best way to cut them is make sure it is the players that pay them directly. Then they might realise how much they cost and think if they're actually worth it?

One good rule i found out from that interview is that in the uk an agent can only work for you for 2 years before you have to resign with them. But if you think it isn't costing you anything why wouldn't you?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I greatly enjoy your posts, and often agree, but please, don't try and gaslight me with regards to your original point. Here's what you said:

"He would be a disaster in Ange’s high line, where the CBs have to be able to defend the ball over the top into the channels and sticking him in the under 21s would probably lead to him accepting a loan."

If you can articulate to me clearly how your suggestion would not be implemented as a punitive move for not leaving freely, I am all eyes. You clearly would be looking to use a U-21 stint as a move to force him out on loan (due to his seniority).

It’s not a ‘punitive’ move, it’s the ‘right’ move. Dier’s not being ‘punished’ for not leaving, he simply needs the KNOW and know right now that if he stays then he won’t be a part of the first team squad and won’t get any first team football for Spurs this season,

I know you like him and think he’s a good player, I just happen to have a different opinion to you, I think he would be a terrible fit for this team and therefore hope the club are doing all they can to make clear he is not part of our future (leaving him out of the 20 man squad for the first 3 games may well indicate that he’s not going to get a place in the 25 man squad).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nope. The club pays the agents fee even if he is working for the player. Which is a joke.

Simon jordan and an agent had a big chat about it on talksport a while back. The player does pay the tax though.

Players have no idea what their agents are paid as they don't pay them.

The excuse of why was because of double taxation. Yet the music or film industries, the artist/actor pays their agent.

I know fifa have allegedly limited agents fees, but (for me) the best way to cut them is make sure it is the players that pay them directly. Then they might realise how much they cost and think if they're actually worth it?

One good rule i found out from that interview is that in the uk an agent can only work for you for 2 years before you have to resign with them. But if you think it isn't costing you anything why wouldn't you?

Typically what happens now is that the agent negotiates the player’s wage and the club pay the agent’s percentage of that. Not really much difference there between that and the player instead getting another N% extra on the eage and paying the agent themselves (especially as the percentage amount is in the agent, player contract.

Agents (mainly) exist to serve their clients’ interests, if they don’t then the player would change agents, especially considering there is a lot of competition out there for player representation.

if players didn’t have agents then the clubs would stuff them on contracts, imagine Daniel Levy negotiating with a young (likely poorly educated) player?

it would also be extremely difficult for players to get the best move as they would be having to talk to and negotiate with potentially interested clubs themselves, which they really don’t have the time (or skills) to do,

 

[Lilbaz]

Typically what happens now is that the agent negotiates the player’s wage and the club pay the agent’s percentage of that. Not really much difference there between that and the player instead getting another N% extra on the eage and paying the agent themselves (especially as the percentage amount is in the agent, player contract.

Agents (mainly) exist to serve their clients’ interests, if they don’t then the player would change agents, especially considering there is a lot of competition out there for player representation.

if players didn’t have agents then the clubs would stuff them on contracts, imagine Daniel Levy negotiating with a young (likely poorly educated) player?

it would also be extremely difficult for players to get the best move as they would be having to talk to and negotiate with potentially interested clubs themselves, which they really don’t have the time (or skills) to do,

I'm not saying get rid of agents. I'm saying players need to pay the agents directly then they can see exactly how much they are getting paid. It could create competition as the agents can then negotiate with players on what percentage or fee they get from any work they do for them.

As i said it's how the music and film industry works. Why should football be different?

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s not a ‘punitive’ move, it’s the ‘right’ move. Dier’s not being ‘punished’ for not leaving, he simply needs the KNOW and know right now that if he stays then he won’t be a part of the first team squad and won’t get any first team football for Spurs this season,

I know you like him and think he’s a good player, I just happen to have a different opinion to you, I think he would be a terrible fit for this team and therefore hope the club are doing all they can to make clear he is not part of our future (leaving him out of the 20 man squad for the first 3 games may well indicate that he’s not going to get a place in the 25 man squad).

You keep missing the point. At this point, you sre either
a) being purposefully obtuse or
b) genuinely don't see the point I am making, and are thus conflating it with the discussion of whether he should be here or not

I do like him, yes, but it is clear that his time here has passed, all good, the manager knows what he wants. As I have said in several places, the manager has made it clear via his system that Dier is not part of things. Onwards, but with respect. My point with you was your dismissive 'stick him in the u-21s'. The way you stated that came across as disrespectful. If you can't see that/don't agree, then this is a pointless exchange. I believe pros, especially senior pros, deserve dignified ends to their time with us. Dier is absolutely among that number IMO.

FWIW I think he is absolutely aware of the situation, but is looking to see out his contract and go on a free. His choice. Yes, it makes things a little tougher for us, but that's the way the contract cookie crumbles...

 

[Grays_1890]

I'm not saying get rid of agents. I'm saying players need to pay the agents directly then they can see exactly how much they are getting paid. It could create competition as the agents can then negotiate with players on what percentage or fee they get from any work they do for them.

As i said it's how the music and film industry works. Why should football be different?

Exactly, and when agents are being paid off both ends of the deal, by the selling clubs, lets be honest, the advice of whats best for the player becomes more than cloudy. Unless its purely money which deemed best for them and not career, thats another debate I suppose

 

[Finney Is Back]

You keep missing the point. At this point, you sre either
a) being purposefully obtuse or
b) genuinely don't see the point I am making, and are thus conflating it with the discussion of whether he should be here or not

I do like him, yes, but it is clear that his time here has passed, all good, the manager knows what he wants. As I have said in several places, the manager has made it clear via his system that Dier is not part of things. Onwards, but with respect. My point with you was your dismissive 'stick him in the u-21s'. The way you stated that came across as disrespectful. If you can't see that/don't agree, then this is a pointless exchange. I believe pros, especially senior pros, deserve dignified ends to their time with us. Dier is absolutely among that number IMO.

FWIW I think he is absolutely aware of the situation, but is looking to see out his contract and go on a free. His choice. Yes, it makes things a little tougher for us, but that's the way the contract cookie crumbles...

So the point you are making is that it would be disrespectful to have him training with the under 21s instead of the first team? I disagree. My thoughts here are not exclusive to Dier either. Any player we no longer want at the club who isn’t getting a first team squad place shouldn’t be training with the first team squad.

If the player is unhappy at having to train with the under 21s instead of the first team then they have the option of accepting a move away.

 

[thfcsteff]

So the point you are making is that it would be disrespectful to have him training with the under 21s instead of the first team? I disagree. My thoughts here are not exclusive to Dier either. Any player we no longer want at the club who isn’t getting a first team squad place shouldn’t be training with the first team squad.

If the player is unhappy at having to train with the under 21s instead of the first team then they have the option of accepting a move away.

At least we are finally at the place where we can agree to fully disagree.
I think the sentiment behind what you're saying suggests that u-21 is a place to plan off the unwanted, and I don't think a player who has given service of the years Dier has should be treated that way. I agree, if not part of the manager's plans, no training with the first-team squad make sense unless Ange feels he can do a job helping in training ground games. I do not like the idea of threatening/forcing a seasoned veteran out like you suggest.

 

[Finney Is Back]

At least we are finally at the place where we can agree to fully disagree.
I think the sentiment behind what you're saying suggests that u-21 is a place to plan off the unwanted, and I don't think a player who has given service of the years Dier has should be treated that way. I agree, if not part of the manager's plans, no training with the first-team squad make sense unless Ange feels he can do a job helping in training ground games. I do not like the idea of threatening/forcing a seasoned veteran out like you suggest.

No, the under 21s is a place where players who do not have a place in the 25 man first team squad should train. The first team squad's training sessions should be ultra high performance and only involve players who could be involved in first team games. We shouldn't be wasting valuable coaching time on players who aren't part of the plans and we'd like to move on.

If we end up short of numbers for training ground games then Postecoglou can make a decision on whether he brings in Dier or Ndombele or Tanganga, or Regulion or whoever else won't get a squad number but chooses to stay instead of moving on for a chance to play some football, or whether it would instead be more beneficial to reward the most promising of the youngsters with that training time (I'd personally opt for the latter as I think it is better for our future that way).

The club cannot 'force' Dier out. The ball is completely in Dier's court here. He can move elsewhere and become part of a first team squad or he can stick around at Spurs and not be part of the first team squad and train with the under 21s. If he does the latter then he'll continue to be paid handsomely.

 

[Lilbaz]

No, the under 21s is a place where players who do not have a place in the 25 man first team squad should train. The first team squad's training sessions should be ultra high performance and only involve players who could be involved in first team games. We shouldn't be wasting valuable coaching time on players who aren't part of the plans and we'd like to move on.

If we end up short of numbers for training ground games then Postecoglou can make a decision on whether he brings in Dier or Ndombele or Tanganga, or Regulion or whoever else won't get a squad number but chooses to stay instead of moving on for a chance to play some football, or whether it would instead be more beneficial to reward the most promising of the youngsters with that training time (I'd personally opt for the latter as I think it is better for our future that way).

The club cannot 'force' Dier out. The ball is completely in Dier's court here. He can move elsewhere and become part of a first team squad or he can stick around at Spurs and not be part of the first team squad and train with the under 21s. If he does the latter then he'll continue to be paid handsomely.

We could offer to cancel his contract and let him go on a free.