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Daniel Levy - Chairman

billyiddo said:
Sigh, we're here again

The reason you can't name a manager who has turned it around is because clubs don't wait to find out if they can, not that it can't be done. I'm sure pre PL there may be some examples when the game was less cut throat.

The great managers build teams then rebuild them, given what they need to do so when they need it. Wenger done that a couple of times & Fergie done it several times - i think both would have struggled to rebuild their teams if they didn't get investment at the right time and as we know due to financial constraints we couldn't give that backing - so the options were either fully invest in the managers vision and give him the time to rebuild post stadium move once money was there or to try and eek something more out of a squad & team that was clearly on the wane.
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Of course we are here again because
- The argument is the club fired Poch too early
- Yet you admit there is really no data to show that if he was given time it would have worked/changed (so the premise is nothing but hope)

You Wenger example is also great, yes he rebuilt teams when at the top, but once it spiralled off he was never able to recover to anywhere close to his original achievement.

And for @Finney Is Back you are mixing up conversations

- Are there problems above manager that need to be addressed? are the decisions post Poch bad calls? -> yes
- Does that change if the decision re Poch was right/wrong? -> no, nothing to do with the above

Managers have a shelf life (there is lots of evidence of change being effective, very little that staying the course works), and how good they did at their peak doesn't change that
 
There's no proof the other way though, ultimately we chose not to rebuild - the manager at the time was calling it and if backed in doing so would more than likely have wanted to see it through, they are two big hurdles that need to be cleared- Mourinho didn't see we needed a rebuild and Conte didn't want to see one through so having someone in place who saw it and wanted it is half the battle, whether or not it would have worked is unprovable but i think it's more than fair to believe that he had another great team in him.
 
billyiddo said:
Sigh, we're here again

The reason you can't name a manager who has turned it around is because clubs don't wait to find out if they can, not that it can't be done. I'm sure pre PL there may be some examples when the game was less cut throat.

The great managers build teams then rebuild them, given what they need to do so when they need it. Wenger done that a couple of times & Fergie done it several times - i think both would have struggled to rebuild their teams if they didn't get investment at the right time and as we know due to financial constraints we couldn't give that backing - so the options were either fully invest in the managers vision and give him the time to rebuild post stadium move once money was there or to try and eek something more out of a squad & team that was clearly on the wane.
Click to expand...

100%

The only reflection I think that may have been made on Poch was do you trust him with the money to rebuild, knowing he didn’t quite get us over the line and his record on buys isn’t great

or go to a a manger who we all know is a cheque book manager and proven winner…

we went for the latter. We may have even won a trophy if we didn’t sack Jose so quickly before the final (would have needed a competent ref which we also missed in the CL final).

all those that were given time to rebuild were doing from a high point, not a decline. We were on the decline and it was quite rapid (that January we could have gone top. When Poch got sacked we’re we’re 14th IIRC and hadn’t won away for an age it seemed). I’d have stuck with Poch because I believe he had at least earned the right, but then I’m not an owner of a football club
 
Raziel said:
Of course we are here again because
- The argument is the club fired Poch too early
- Yet you admit there is really no data to show that if he was given time it would have worked/changed (so the premise is nothing but hope)

You Wenger example is also great, yes he rebuilt teams when at the top, but once it spiralled off he was never able to recover to anywhere close to his original achievement.

And for @Finney Is Back you are mixing up conversations

- Are there problems above manager that need to be addressed? are the decisions post Poch bad calls? -> yes
- Does that change if the decision re Poch was right/wrong? -> no, nothing to do with the above

Managers have a shelf life (there is lots of evidence of change being effective, very little that staying the course works), and how good they did at their peak doesn't change that
Click to expand...

Actually wengers rebuilds failed after the constraints put on him after going into the new stadium and the emergence of free spending Chelsea... a little perspective is needed.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
100%

The only reflection I think that may have been made on Poch was do you trust him with the money to rebuild, knowing he didn’t quite get us over the line and his record on buys isn’t great

or go to a a manger who we all know is a cheque book manager and proven winner…

we went for the latter. We may have even won a trophy if we didn’t sack Jose so quickly before the final (would have needed a competent ref which we also missed in the CL final).

all those that were given time to rebuild were doing from a high point, not a decline. We were on the decline and it was quite rapid (that January we could have gone top. When Poch got sacked we’re we’re 14th IIRC and hadn’t won away for an age it seemed). I’d have stuck with Poch because I believe he had at least earned the right, but then I’m not an owner of a football club
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This about sums it up for me, i said at the time that sacking Pooch when we did was wrong ( i would have let him have to the end of the season) if he had not made a better job then he had for a while then sack him then. As for having him back now i also did not really want that. Time to move on.
 
Gazza said:
Actually wengers rebuilds failed after the constraints put on him after going into the new stadium and the emergence of free spending Chelsea... a little perspective is needed.
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And the world moving to catch him up
When he came here he was unique and innovative
When he left he had others with more cash and others who had caught and then overtaken him
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
Liverpool have rode it out with Klopp a couple of times including now.
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Yes, and kudos to them (although the fan/media backlash would have been considerable, so probably gave them considerable food for thought)

The question is what is Klopp's worse run, how many games? for reference Poch's last 24 were a brickshow
 
Raziel said:
Yes, and kudos to them (although the fan/media backlash would have been considerable, so probably gave them considerable food for thought)

The question is what is Klopp's worse run, how many games? for reference Poch's last 24 were a brickshow
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Klopp has had the funds and the backing to refresh and keep going ...
 
Raziel said:
Yes, and kudos to them (although the fan/media backlash would have been considerable, so probably gave them considerable food for thought)

The question is what is Klopp's worse run, how many games? for reference Poch's last 24 were a brickshow
Click to expand...
I think it's fair to say there was some mitigation for those awful 24 games. The squad had gone stale and had needed an influx of fresh blood, fresh legs and fresh ears and it had none of that so it did indeed go stale. With that in mind I do believe Poch had earned a degree of allowance alas the chairman did not.

Instead it seems he did not think we needed refreshing and went with Mourinho a wholly unsuited coach for us and that's probably my biggest issue with the entire thing.

Sacking Poch is one thing and maybe if you look at it through a certain prism then you can accept it, but to then hire Mourinho it really does call into question once again our leadership's lack of football nous. The average part time football fan could tell you what ingredients Mourinho requires, that same fan would likely have been able to see that Tottenham Hotspur was not a good fit.

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Bishop said:
I think it's fair to say there was some motivation for those awful 24 games. The squad had gone stale and had needed an influx of fresh blood, fresh legs and fresh ears and it had none of that so it did indeed go stale. With that in mind I do believe Poch had earned a degree of allowance alas the chairman did not.

Instead it seems he did not think we needed refreshing and went with Mourinho a wholly unsuited coach for us and that's probably my biggest issue with the entire thing.

Sacking Poch is one thing and maybe if you look at it through a certain prism then you can accept it, but to then hire Mourinho it really does call into question once again our leadership's lack of football nous. The average part time football fan could tell you what ingredients Mourinho requires, that same fan would likely have been able to see that Tottenham Hotspur was not a good fit.

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Some expected Mourinho to come in and say that the players were brick like Conte, but because he didn't (not getting the politics involved in saying what he did) its used to fuel their blind hatred for him.
 
Bishop said:
The average part time football fan could tell you what ingredients Mourinho requires, that same fan would likely have been able to see that Tottenham Hotspur was not a good fit.

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Of course, I agree 100% on this, but then again as said previously, if we all knew that Jose knew all that and once the manager takes over he shoulders some of the burden, its the name of the game, comes with the salary. No one, including part time fans can believe Jose did not know what he was getting into, I am sure the money helped the decision making process.

BTW I am not saying the club don't have to do their part because they do, but there is also this almost acceptance, including the defence of the way Conte departed where fans are saying it was ok for said managers to throw their arms in the air and not do the job they are employed to do.
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
Liverpool have rode it out with Klopp a couple of times including now.
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Arsenal have kept faith in Arteta as well. Do we really think Levy would have stuck by a manager who finished 8th in his first two seasons? And then followed that up with blowing top 4? Yes we’re all laughing at them now and with good reason but they’re heading in the right direction under him and were right to stick with him.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think it’s a valid debate and quite relevant given how other clubs around us haven’t pushed the panic button and sacked managers like Levy does. Patience isn’t one of Levy’s strongest qualities.
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Yeh I was joking as I was getting serious DeJa Vu

I agree that longer term appointments work in more cases than not but given the length of stay averages about 2 years and a few weeks it suggests when they don't work most clubs fire quickly. For me where we have gone wrong is not sacking people too quickly, its appointing the wrong people....
 
Jurgen the German said:
Arsenal have kept faith in Arteta as well. Do we really think Levy would have stuck by a manager who finished 8th in his first two seasons? And then followed that up with blowing top 4? Yes we’re all laughing at them now and with good reason but they’re heading in the right direction under him and were right to stick with him.
Click to expand...

Jurgen the German said:
I think it’s a valid debate and quite relevant given how other clubs around us haven’t pushed the panic button and sacked managers like Levy does. Patience isn’t one of Levy’s strongest qualities.
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What 'would have' happened is by definition impossible to predict.

Using Arteta as an example doesn't prove keeping Poch would turn out positively. It's cherry picking an outcome (not even a successful one now they've crumbled again tbh) to support your view.
Similarly one could easily offer Leicester keeping Rodgers for far too long to 'prove' the alternative outcome.
 
Raziel said:
Yes, and kudos to them (although the fan/media backlash would have been considerable, so probably gave them considerable food for thought)

The question is what is Klopp's worse run, how many games? for reference Poch's last 24 were a brickshow
Click to expand...

Klopp never had an extended period of no backing in the transfer market to contend with, he had a big squad that was refreshed consistently with big signings on high wages.
 
billyiddo said:
Klopp never had an extended period of no backing in the transfer market to contend with, he had a big squad that was refreshed consistently with big signings on high wages.
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He has been constantly backed
But he his worst season will be this one where he may well get CL still (he has gradually got the team better and better)
 
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