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Daniel Levy - Chairman

Tv rights double every three to four years, we haven't even begun to see the potential of NFL, non football events, still a lot of upside.
The domestic TV market isn't growing any more. There is still some growth in the overseas market but not the same sort of magnitudes as before. I think the big unknown is the potential of the streaming market, this could be absolutely huge and if the PL can get itself together and find a way for the clubs to agree to the money distribution and run the platform for this with a global partner (probably Amazon, Apple or Google) then the numbers could dwarf the existing TV deals.

Non football events will bring in a modicum of money. Remember that for those we only really get a rental fee for the stadium. Same thing for the NFL as well.

I think stadium naming rights probably sit just below non football (And non NFL) events. We're probably really only looking at an absolute max of £30m a year from non football events, £15m a year for stadium sponsorship and £6m to £10m for NFL. Not really huge numbers that will transform the value of the club.
 
Yes, so the money from any purchases made go directly to the sellers as opposed to a cash injection into the club. I'm forlornly hoping that our owners issue new share capital....
Yes. Just like a normal share purchase.

My idea was mainly to build a bridge (given the hostility) and some form of solution that all sides get something from via a share issue equity dilution.

Both sides could see ROI from the transfer fund, if successful.
Fans equity capital value could alternatively benefit from growth of other operations Levy excels at.
Fans get to own part of the club and have a place on the board (inclusive approach)
Fans get a guarantee that their investment goes to what they desire, new players
Levy opens the door to say 'Its easy to spend other people's money....put your money where your mouth is'

Of course it would descend into blame, finger pointing, and disagreement:D
 
ENIC have been here twenty years so let's look at twenty year windows:
50s & 60s: 6 trophies
60s & 70s: 8 trophies
70s & 80s: 6 trophies
80s & 90s: 5 trophies
90s & 00s: 3 trophies (2 of those won pre ENIC)
00s and 10s: 1 trophy

I think the 2010s is the first time that we have spent the entire decade in the top division yet won nothing.

FWIW our average league finishing position during the ENIC era happens to be the joint best in our club’s history:

50s & 60s = 7th
60s & 70s = 9th
70s & 80s = 10th
80s & 90s = 9th
90s & 00s = 10th
00s & 10s = 7th

It’s a funny old game!
 
FWIW our average league finishing position during the ENIC era happens to be the joint best in our club’s history:

50s & 60s = 7th
60s & 70s = 9th
70s & 80s = 10th
80s & 90s = 9th
90s & 00s = 10th
00s & 10s = 7th

It’s a funny old game!
Do you have 10s to 20s, I imagine it would be higher still?
 
Honestly mate, I disagree that it has been an amazing feat to semi-competently handle the club's own money and plough it into infrastructure instead of the team. It's a binary choice for a chairman - the club generates X, do we spend it on infrastructure, or on players? For 20 years, he chose infrastructure, when he chose spending at all. As a result, we have the stadium, and the training ground.

We charge the highest ticket prices in the league, and have done for about 75% of Levy's tenure here. Our position as a London team affords us that possibility. Other than that, from 2001 to 2021, the Premier League grew enormously, and took us with it - a lot of the revenue we've ploughed into the stadium and training ground is from the broadcast deals the league as a whole has signed.

What has Levy done that's so transformative?

Our progress on the pitch? Redknapp and Poch, entirely. GHod knows, Levy stood in their way and put obstacles at every single point possible - I give him next to no credit for hobbling both of them (indeed, people like @statlover1 praise him for actively hobbling his coaches). The CL income? Down to those two. The increased exposure likewise.

Our growth in commercial income? Honestly, I've posted the graph here previously - our growth has been roughly the same as two of the top six, and well below two. We've only outgrown Arsenal in that time in terms of commercial income. Where's the naming rights deal, and the wider proof that he's a genius in that sphere?

Levy is essentially a glorified CEO for Lewis. If we had hired an actual CEO, would we have done any better or worse these past twenty years, for the, what, 25m-50m we've paid him in that time?

And would we have won more, perhaps, than we ended up winning under this supposed genius?



Mate, you believe he's being honest. A couple of pages ago, I posted about the first lie he ever told us, when he took over on that unfortunate day twenty years ago. He claimed to be a lifelong Spurs fan with a box at the Lane. Two years later, he admitted to a pretty reputable journalist that he had no interest in football and chose to get into it because it was the biggest money spinner. It's there in text for everyone to see.

He lied on the first day. He's lied every year since about something or the other, and before this video, was most recently caught lying about the ESL.

I don't know what makes you think he's in any way honest, about anything. Even this video's full of it - one memorable bit is where he swerves the question he 100% wrote himself about spending money to answer that the club reinvests all income...firstly, that's wrong, because we made a payment of 20m to ENIC a couple of years ago, iirc, and secondly, the questions the fans want to know is - will you spend ENIC's money on the club? Not if you'll barely competently reinvest the club's own money - you've done that for twenty years.

He doesn't care, mate. Not about us, not about Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. He cares about ENIC's portfolio, and he's a glorified salesman fresh out of his discount Mr.Byrite clothing store. Him and Lewis, both.

You can believe he's changed - to me, everything suggests he hasn't. Chief among them hiring Fonseca, the cheap option, the discount option, the bargain bin option. I wish him well, but it's clear why he's here - he's cheap.

Nothing will change in terms of how we're run, because Levy never intended for anything to change, pre or post stadium. Fonesca will struggle against the current, one hand tied behind his back. Levy will penny-pinch, spend 999,999 weeks knocking 5p off a deal. He'll lie to fans, the media, everyone about what he actually wants.

What *is* changing is everything around the club. For the first time, no one's buying it - not even the media, which usually falls for Levy's schtick. Journalists are asking questions about where we've actually gone under Levy's 'model', fans are turning on him, and the increased exposure he himself has wanted so dearly has now backfired in putting him under a microscope.

I have hope that it's the things around the club that drive change at the top. And once ENIC are gone, we can dream again - about anything, about everything, about becoming a footballing institution again instead of a perpetually trophyless, penny-pinching line on an ENIC balance sheet.

I think there is an interesting argument here I have thought a bit, in that it’s fair to question what Levy has done himself that is super transformative (in this example, the stadium is something that was a choice, spend on it, rather than the team). I agree with what you are saying that sometimes it is about choices, not necessarily that he is brilliant at something. It’s like when people say he’s a brilliant negotiator…I guess you could say that, but he makes the choice to have established a hard negotiating stance in expense of having most of the transfer business done early. It means we extract the maximum for someone like Berbatov and get left with Frazer Campbell, and waste a season.

I think there are certain things that are trade offs, and Levy has tended to pick the trade that keeps us on the best possible monetary footing, rather than moving the dial slightly the other direction to give us more chance of success.

I would say to his credit, I don’t know that I go with him being an amazing negotiator or money manager (as they are choices as much as anything) but I do think he is strong on strategy. The fact that there is relatively little variance in our league finishing position, the fact that we have maintained our position in an expanded top 6, and the fact that we actually saw through the complex build of the stadium and the rest of the infrastructure is to his credit. That’s where it goes beyond making the choice to do something, and towards needing to be very, very good at management of complex projects, of seeing all of the moving parts, of having a vision and sticking to it. Good strategy is knowing what to say no to as much as what to say yes to. And I think Levy deserves to be thought of ahead of owners like Mike Ashley. I think all things being equal, Levy is just flat smarter than him. So even though they had a bigger stadium and a rabid fan base, Saudi Sportswashing Machine are perennial relegation battlers while we are in Europe every year. I think part of that is because we choose not to take the risks to try and go further, but I think Levy has been quite clever in establishing our position in the market as being the perfect place for a Modric, a Bale, an Eriksen, a Walker, to come and join and become one of the best in the world in your position. It means we get to sign the best prospects. And we are able to continue to outspend other mid table sides.

Again, that last point is partly choice, but I think he has a good strategic mind to be able to see a way to both improve the infrastructure (which should bring us closer to the top 4) while maintaining a top 6 position. Another choice would have been to invest in the team, win a few more trophies, but have us no better positioned to compete in the long term unless they sell. At least this way, we are closer to the clubs with more money. But that’s another choice. A bad owner would have just wasted 20 years, with neither trophies nor infrastructure, nor consistent European football to show for it. At least we have something.

This doesn’t mean I wouldn’t rather ENIC sell to some tech billionaire with deeper pockets willing to invest more so we can now exploit the extra padding the stadium gives us. Because I wouldn’t mind that at all. And I do think he gets overly praised for things that are choices rather than skills. But I think it’s fair to acknowledge his smarts, and even if we might not agree with his strategies, his ability to execute them is a mark in his plus column.
 
I cut down you War and Peace post because as usual its just you normal rubbish rant when it comes too anything to do with Levy. Also i would appreciate it if you did/do not try and use my support of Levy to accuse me of doing s omething which i have not done, at no time have i posted anything that suggests i think Levy is right to Hobble his coaches that is just another crock of brick in your mind. If you are going to rant ( and you do) please do not put you vivid imagination into others folks words.

You love this War and Peace thing. I’m gonna start calling your posts Mr Men stories.

I think some of the most interesting posts on this forum come from people that are willing to debate with some depth, and back up their arguments in compelling ways. I’ve learnt a lot by being on here and challenging my own thinking when confronted with some really great posts, or it’s motivated me to look deeper into an issue to try and prove out my own side.

I get some people think they are long or boring and honestly you don’t need to read them if you do. But I think there are some smart people on here and I like reading what they have to say.
 
FWIW our average league finishing position during the ENIC era happens to be the joint best in our club’s history:

50s & 60s = 7th
60s & 70s = 9th
70s & 80s = 10th
80s & 90s = 9th
90s & 00s = 10th
00s & 10s = 7th

It’s a funny old game!

Would this strengthen the idea that ENIC have us pretty much batting at par rather than doing anything particularly transformative? Particularly given without Poch the most recent couple of decades’ average might be a position or two lower? (I’d argue he did genuinely transformational work compared to what could reasonably be expected).

(I can also understand the argument that if not for Chelsea and City, our position might be a couple of places higher on average, but I guess the answer here would be don’t hate the player, hate the game. If you buy a football club because you think the sector is wildly undervalued and you think the global market is about to explode, don’t be surprised when people with deeper pockets also see a similar opportunity to get something that benefits them a lot for a relatively small chunk of their overall wealth. If the debate is what have ENIC done to be genuinely transformational, they need to weather these threats if they want to be considered genuinely great owners, rather than average to good custodians.)

I guess the other way to look at it is, we will only know when we do the accounting for the 20s and 30s. If we have a markedly higher league position as a result of the stadium you can say they did a good thing that took time to show.
 
The domestic TV market isn't growing any more. There is still some growth in the overseas market but not the same sort of magnitudes as before. I think the big unknown is the potential of the streaming market, this could be absolutely huge and if the PL can get itself together and find a way for the clubs to agree to the money distribution and run the platform for this with a global partner (probably Amazon, Apple or Google) then the numbers could dwarf the existing TV deals.

Non football events will bring in a modicum of money. Remember that for those we only really get a rental fee for the stadium. Same thing for the NFL as well.

I think stadium naming rights probably sit just below non football (And non NFL) events. We're probably really only looking at an absolute max of £30m a year from non football events, £15m a year for stadium sponsorship and £6m to £10m for NFL. Not really huge numbers that will transform the value of the club.
Difference is though that’s profit
Their is no footballing player costs associated with those numbers as we’re not providing the “entertainment”
 
Yes, but an extra £45m to £50m a year isn't going to vastly transform the asset value of this club.... We'd get more than that from being in the group stages of the Champions League.

I'm not knocking it.... that additional revenue would be handy for transfer and wage funds, I'm just saying that it isn't transformative for the valuation of the asset. The ESL would've been, streaming rights might be and potentially the monetisation of the Tik Tok generation could be. Those other things?.... No way.
 
Yes, but an extra £45m to £50m a year isn't going to vastly transform the asset value of this club.... We'd get more than that from being in the group stages of the Champions League.

I'm not knocking it.... that additional revenue would be handy for transfer and wage funds, I'm just saying that it isn't transformative for the valuation of the asset. The ESL would've been, streaming rights might be and potentially the monetisation of the Tik Tok generation could be. Those other things?.... No way.
It’s a big chunk of profit though
And that’s what creates value
But then football clubs seem to be valued using some very weird metrics and profit doesn’t seem to matter
 
Difference is though that’s profit
Their is no footballing player costs associated with those numbers as we’re not providing the “entertainment”

An extra £30-50m a season on top of whatever we have to spend anyway is massive. Pushes us into a different echelon.
 
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FWIW our average league finishing position during the ENIC era happens to be the joint best in our club’s history:

50s & 60s = 7th
60s & 70s = 9th
70s & 80s = 10th
80s & 90s = 9th
90s & 00s = 10th
00s & 10s = 7th

It’s a funny old game!
7th though is not much to crow about.
 
It’s a big chunk of profit though
And that’s what creates value
But then football clubs seem to be valued using some very weird metrics and profit doesn’t seem to matter
Sorry but adding £45m to our revenue isn’t going to drastically increase the asset value of the club. That is now only going to happen with drastic increases in broadcasting revenue (i.e. streaming or social media monetisation).

£45m allows us to add £23m to our wage budget and £22m to the transfer pot which is great, but it doesn’t make ENICs asset worth £3b instead of £1.5b.
 
Sorry but adding £45m to our revenue isn’t going to drastically increase the asset value of the club. That is now only going to happen with drastic increases in broadcasting revenue (i.e. streaming or social media monetisation).

£45m allows us to add £23m to our wage budget and £22m to the transfer pot which is great, but it doesn’t make ENICs asset worth £3b instead of £1.5b.
That’s £45m profit though
Your then attributing that to football costs
The whole lot can be used for transfers in theory as wages aren’t aligned to this extra revenue
It’s more profit which does mean more value. It won’t make a huge difference but it’s extra none the less
 
You love this War and Peace thing. I’m gonna start calling your posts Mr Men stories.

I think some of the most interesting posts on this forum come from people that are willing to debate with some depth, and back up their arguments in compelling ways. I’ve learnt a lot by being on here and challenging my own thinking when confronted with some really great posts, or it’s motivated me to look deeper into an issue to try and prove out my own side.

I get some people think they are long or boring and honestly you don’t need to read them if you do. But I think there are some smart people on here and I like reading what they have to say.

A fine post!
 
No idea
Poch turned him down though
Like all transfers we don’t know the details
But Poch preferred sissoko
I don't think Poch preferred Sissoko to anyone. Remember Sissoko was a last day last minute transfer. He had hoped to get other players in and having failed in those endeavours accepted Sissoko in what I think was clearly a grudging way. He barely played him until injury problems forced his hand. He foolishly then thought he could get a tune out of him and got himself sacked.
 
That’s £45m profit though
Your then attributing that to football costs
The whole lot can be used for transfers in theory as wages aren’t aligned to this extra revenue
It’s more profit which does mean more value. It won’t make a huge difference but it’s extra none the less
In theory the revenue is constant (extra events + naming rights) so wages should absolutely be aligned to it. We have traditionally been operating at about 40% wages to turnover for much of ENICs time at Spurs, the lowest in the PL (though we will obviously be higher than 40% in these past two COVID affected years). £45m of pretty much guaranteed additional revenue would enable us to add £18m to the wage bill. I very much doubt the owners would choose to instead simply pull in that money and not spend it on the club, in fact doing so would go against everything that Levy said in his recent interview.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree if you think that an extra £45m of revenue for THFC materially alters the value of the asset. The ESL happening would’ve and the right to negotiate ones own streaming rights would also likely do so, adding 10% of revenue though?.... Not really, especially as those things would already likely be factored into our asset value once the new stadium was built.
 
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