**** Chelsea v Tottenham Hotspur ****

[DubaiSpur]

The irony ....he's responding to the melodrama. Get it?

Sigh. As with Poch, are we in for another round of 'manager says what is wrong and what he wants in plain English 100 times but half of GG decides that isn't what he means, really'?

 

[DeanoAustin]

You don't need to be as good as Chelsea to catch them, you don't play them every week- we're potentially right up with them if our games in hand work in our favour - get Son & Kane firing during the 2nd half of the season and why not?

This is the problem. People look at games in hand and think "we win these we overtake Chelsea" and start to expect it. Three of our games in hand are:

Burnley - A
Brighton - A
Arsenal - H

I wouldn't expect to win any of those. If we take anything above 6 points, we're doing very well. Individually, we could beat any of those teams but collectively, it's a massive ask.

And if we do drop points, that's when fans start throwing toys out of the pram.

We won't catch Chelsea. They've had a bit of a wobble but they'll kick on from here. 4th is the best we can do this season and if Conte does that, it's some achievement.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think the opposite. Nuno showed where this squad is at - its true level, effectively without any management intervention. Utterly mid-table.

The only man dragging things higher than they would be is Conte, and he is fighting this squad's massive deficiencies to do so.

Poch did the same, manfully so, for years despite receiving no backing. Great managers can do that - turn sow's ears into silk purses.

But it says nothing about the ability of the squad. On that, Conte has been constantly and loudly saying for months that this lot are hopeless - I'd suggest your commitment to defending the way we're run is taking you off track from seeing that, because the evidence is there in every single press conference he gives.

All teams perform better when you luck into or appoint a great/top level manager.

Chelsea looked great with Lampard ?
Man United looked great with Moyes LVG OGS etc ?

The quality of your manager is a difference maker. Same team, different outcomes. To say 'that is the level of the squad' when you have a bad/average one is disingenuous.

Man U and Chelsea have all the backing they want, but those squads did better (well, not Man U yet) with better managers. They are literally doing what they are paid to do, but doing it better.

 

[harr1984]

This is the problem. People look at games in hand and think "we win these we overtake Chelsea" and start to expect it. Three of our games in hand are:

Burnley - A
Brighton - A
Arsenal - H

I wouldn't expect to win any of those. If we take anything above 6 points, we're doing very well. Individually, we could beat any of those teams but collectively, it's a massive ask.

And if we do drop points, that's when fans start throwing toys out of the pram.

We won't catch Chelsea. They've had a bit of a wobble but they'll kick on from here. 4th is the best we can do this season and if Conte does that, it's some achievement.

Chelsea’s last four games before us that they didn’t win were against Brighton twice, Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project and the only game they lost was to Emirates Marketing Project during which time we made up ground with some easier fixtures. Chelsea will have a period where they have some nice fluffy fixtures and pull away from us, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if we didn’t have a load of fixtures bunched up at home to bottom half of the table teams. It’s not that Conte isn’t doing a decent job, but we are not anywhere close to Chelsea in terms of quality on the pitch or squad depth and those factors make a difference throughout a season…..

 

[billyiddo]

This is the problem. People look at games in hand and think "we win these we overtake Chelsea" and start to expect it. Three of our games in hand are:

Burnley - A
Brighton - A
Arsenal - H

I wouldn't expect to win any of those. If we take anything above 6 points, we're doing very well. Individually, we could beat any of those teams but collectively, it's a massive ask.

And if we do drop points, that's when fans start throwing toys out of the pram.

We won't catch Chelsea. They've had a bit of a wobble but they'll kick on from here. 4th is the best we can do this season and if Conte does that, it's some achievement.

We probably won't catch Chelsea and I'm not expecting it but it's not as out of the question as you and harr have made it out to be

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Sigh. As with Poch, are we in for another round of 'manager says what is wrong and what he wants in plain English 100 times but half of GG decides that isn't what he means, really'?

What he is (constantly) saying is 'there is lots of work to do, improvements to be made and I have decided who I don't need and positions I need new players for. This will take time, one window will not fix this, it could be years to get to the level (Chelsea city etc)'

The last sentence is probably for you. The melodramaista's....who bang on and on every week as if they've got eff all else in their lives. He's managing expectations and being a realist. ie stating the effing obvious.

 

[glasgowspur]

Chelsea’s last four games before us that they didn’t win were against Brighton twice, Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project and the only game they lost was to Emirates Marketing Project during which time we made up ground with some easier fixtures. Chelsea will have a period where they have some nice fluffy fixtures and pull away from us, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if we didn’t have a load of fixtures bunched up at home to bottom half of the table teams. It’s not that Conte isn’t doing a decent job, but we are not anywhere close to Chelsea in terms of quality on the pitch or squad depth and those factors make a difference throughout a season…..

Chelsea big problem will come when the players and tuchel fall out.
Chelsea as a squad are underperforming, and have done for quite a few years.
As much as I think we have a culture issue in the club, i beginning to think Chelsea have as well.
Not as bad as ours obviously, but its there.

 

[DubaiSpur]

What he is (constantly) saying is 'there is lots of work to do, improvements to be made and I have decided who I don't need and positions I need new players for. This will take time, one window will not fix this, it could be years to get to the level (Chelsea city etc)'

The last sentence is probably for you. The melodramaists....who bang on and on every week as if they've got eff all else in their lives. He's managing expectations and being a realist. ie stating the effing obvious.

Aye, but what gets me is that the equally manically online folks who identify with ENIC to an alarming degree then take those bits where he clearly says he needs players and the squad is brick, and then...just seem to either ignore it or downplay it.

It's happened with Poch, it happened with Mourinho, it happened with Nuno, it's happening with Conte. Every single one has called our squad sh*te and in need of investment in so many words, and every time, there's a swarm of folks who instantly arrive crying about how it's being melodramatic to take them at their word and everything is fine and dandy with the club.

It is intensely weird, tbh. Especially since it's not like we've been flying all this time - we've gotten steadily, clearly worse, and every one of the managers we have had has said as much, as bluntly - but for the folks who back ENIC come what may, forever and ever, just taking them at their word seems to be melodramatic, and instead we should believe they are A-Okay with things and are just 'managing expectations'. That last line is probably for you.

We are in a transfer window. Conte has called for signings to improve this crap squad he has. We have predictably made none, sitting on our hands, for 24 days, while more ambitious clubs have.

Can we agree on these facts, or are they too melodramatic?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Chelsea big problem will come when the players and tuchel fall out.
Chelsea as a squad are underperforming, and have done for quite a few years.
As much as I think we have a culture issue in the club, i beginning to think Chelsea have as well.
Not as bad as ours obviously, but its there.

I think there is a chance of this.

I have a feeling Tuchels skills do not stretch to dressing room problems, off field issues and personality clashes

 

[braineclipse]

What he is (constantly) saying is 'there is lots of work to do, improvements to be made and I have decided who I don't need and positions I need new players for. This will take time, one window will not fix this, it could be years to get to the level (Chelsea city etc)'

The last sentence is probably for you. The melodramaists....who bang on and on every week as if they've got eff all else in their lives. He's managing expectations and being a realist. ie stating the effing obvious.

Agreed.

Everything should happen as quickly as possible. But not quicker than that.

It's better to not sign a player than to sign the wrong player.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think there is a chance of this.

I have a feeling Tuchels skills do not stretch to dressing room problems, off field issues and personality clashes

I think its deeper than that tbh, that squad is better than its trophy haul over the last five years imho.
Its almost like they only win a trophy when they need to to save their arses.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Aye, but what gets me is that the equally manically online folks who identify with ENIC to an alarming degree then take those bits where he clearly says he needs players and the squad is brick, and then...just seem to either ignore it or downplay it.

'Manically online folk who identify with Enic'?..I think they're staying well away from being online.

We all agree with what the man says. He's excellent after all. But the energy expelled on 'hes gonna walk, he's not being backed' would power a small country.
Just not talking about it everyday and bringing the megaphones and sledgehammers out everytime something negative happens. The man needs time, this behaviour is not conducive to this. The SM storm feeds the MSM storm it's a constant feedback loop.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Aye, but what gets me is that the equally manically online folks who identify with ENIC to an alarming degree then take those bits where he clearly says he needs players and the squad is brick, and then...just seem to either ignore it or downplay it.

It's happened with Poch, it happened with Mourinho, it happened with Nuno, it's happening with Conte. Every single one has called our squad sh*te and in need of investment in so many words, and every time, there's a swarm of folks who instantly arrive crying about how it's being melodramatic to take them at their word and everything is fine and dandy with the club.

It is intensely weird, tbh. Especially since it's not like we've been flying all this time - we've gotten steadily, clearly worse, and every one of the managers we have had has said as much, as bluntly - but for the folks who back ENIC come what may, forever and ever, just taking them at their word seems to be melodramatic, and instead we should believe they are A-Okay with things and are just 'managing expectations'. That last line is probably for you.

We are in a transfer window. Conte has called for signings to improve this crap squad he has. We have predictably made none, sitting on our hands, for 24 days, while more ambitious clubs have.

Can we agree on these facts, or are they too melodramatic?

Yep too melodramatic.
Villa and?
It's really Paratici you're moaning at there. I'm sure Conte and him speak all the time.

I agree with some of your squad assessment. ie old back ups now starters. But since Pochs last summer window we have spent a decent amount of money. Enough to be top 4 quality.
But I am beginning to think those windows since have been worse than when we bought nobody.
Ndombele Lo Celso should be our midfield (no need for Winks)
Not sure if Bergwijn and Sesss bodies can hold up to the prem
Sanchez doesn't look top 4 ..though cost top 4 money .
Moura isn't really a system player
Doherty is lost
Clark?
And we owe £170m to other clubs for the privilege.

We simply have to spend the money better. Whether Paratici is ticking that box we'll have to see.

 

[glasgowspur]

'Manically online folk who identify with Enic'?..I think they're staying well away from being online.

We all agree with what the man says. He's excellent after all. But the energy expelled on 'hes gonna walk, he's not being backed' would power a small country.
Just not talking about it everyday and bringing the megaphones and sledgehammers out everytime something negative happens. The man needs time, this behaviour is not conducive to this. The SM storm feeds the MSM storm it's a constant feedback loop.

The MSM keep trotting out the "success at spurs" line.
Well what is success for spurs?
Playing in a league with two of the biggest clubs in the world (utd and Liverpool), and a club own and bankrolled by one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and Chelsea a club with a billionaire owner.
Where should we place there?
Then theres arsenal, Leicester and maybe even everton that could all be expected to possibly in a better situation than us.
Hos many of them should we consistently expect to finish above?

Why are we held to such high expectations?
Arsenal are in limbo, Everton are a disaster, Leicester batting above their average, but that's a low bar.
What's success for them?
Have we been knocked out of any of the domestic cups by teams we shouldn't have?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think its deeper than that tbh, that squad is better than its trophy haul over the last five years imho.
Its almost like they only win a trophy when they need to to save their arses.

They are saving their arses quite regularly though

 

[Baleforce]

He’s not going to walk, we’ll spend what we can afford to spend, on players identified as improvements.

Same as it ever was.

 

[DubaiSpur]

'Manically online folk who identify with Enic'?..I think they're staying well away from being online.

We all agree with what the man says. He's excellent after all. But the energy expelled on 'hes gonna walk, he's not being backed' would power a small country.
Just not talking about it everyday and bringing the megaphones and sledgehammers out everytime something negative happens. The man needs time, this behaviour is not conducive to this. The SM storm feeds the MSM storm it's a constant feedback loop.

Oh, I disagree. They usually show even before the anti-ENIC folks do - gotta get those deflections in early, after all.

The thing is, the reason why I don't mind (and even encourage) the energy being spent on scrutiny of the club's approach and the squad rn is because we need it.

We badly need that urgency - we've operated with too much of a sense of complacency in past years, and it has cost us badly.

And right now, people are seeing us make the same mistakes again - the excuses coming up for why January is difficult, the squad isn't actually that bad, etc, etc.

And what many, many folks are pointing out is that Conte is not a man who takes complacency lightly. You might think the refrain of 'he'll walk' is overused, but this man literally left title-winning Inter Milan after two years because he felt he couldn't continue there. And all his public signals to date in January have been about how a) this squad is crap, and b) he needs players.

As someone pro-ENIC, you should be happy so many folks are trying desperately to wake the club up as to the need to be bold and gut this crap squad. On my end, as I've said before, if he stays and is backed, I'm happy - if he isn't and leaves, I will at least be consoled, because public opinion will finally turn on ENIC completely.

 

[glasgowspur]

Oh, I disagree. They usually show even before the anti-ENIC folks do - gotta get those deflections in early, after all.

The thing is, the reason why I don't mind (and even encourage) the energy being spent on scrutiny of the club's approach and the squad rn is because we need it.

We badly need that urgency - we've operated with too much of a sense of complacency in past years, and it has cost us badly.

And right now, people are seeing us make the same mistakes again - the excuses coming up for why January is difficult, the squad isn't actually that bad, etc, etc.

And what many, many folks are pointing out is that Conte is not a man who takes complacency lightly. You might think the refrain of 'he'll walk' is overused, but this man literally left title-winning Inter Milan after two years because he felt he couldn't continue there. And all his public signals to date in January have been about how a) this squad is crap, and b) he needs players.

As someone pro-ENIC, you should be happy so many folks are trying desperately to wake the club up as to the need to be bold and gut this crap squad. On my end, as I've said before, if he stays and is backed, I'm happy - if he isn't and leaves, I will at least be consoled, because public opinion will finally turn on ENIC completely.

What's your definition of success?
I don't think anyone on here thinks conte can walk in and turn us into a title winning side in two years. This isn't Italy.
There isn't a man born who could do that.
It's something that puzzles me about all of this, conte must have known this, so he's here to build or a payout. Doesn't strike me as a payout kind of person.
There's a lot of interesting little scenarios going on and it will be interesting to see how they play out.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Oh, I disagree. They usually show even before the anti-ENIC folks do - gotta get those deflections in early, after all.

The thing is, the reason why I don't mind (and even encourage) the energy being spent on scrutiny of the club's approach and the squad rn is because we need it.

We badly need that urgency - we've operated with too much of a sense of complacency in past years, and it has cost us badly.

And right now, people are seeing us make the same mistakes again - the excuses coming up for why January is difficult, the squad isn't actually that bad, etc, etc.

And what many, many folks are pointing out is that Conte is not a man who takes complacency lightly. You might think the refrain of 'he'll walk' is overused, but this man literally left title-winning Inter Milan after two years because he felt he couldn't continue there. And all his public signals to date in January have been about how a) this squad is crap, and b) he needs players.

As someone pro-ENIC, you should be happy so many folks are trying desperately to wake the club up as to the need to be bold and gut this crap squad. On my end, as I've said before, if he stays and is backed, I'm happy - if he isn't and leaves, I will at least be consoled, because public opinion will finally turn on ENIC completely.

I think we agree with every word the man says and the remit and promises he's been given coming in the door (why would anyone think anything different).

Conte is very clear and plays with a straight bat. That's nice.

He'll walk if anyone deviates from what they have promised, as it hinders him to achieve his goals.

He has a good relationship with a man he has worked with before at the club.

If Levy as given them a budget (that must of been agreed on the way in), let them get on with it. Levy has fed in the financials, Conte has now fed in his requirements, Paratici has to do his job (or 'cooking' if you're a Twitter nerd).

Fwiw I don't think the budget is big for January but can be supplemented with some sales of the unwanted. I'm surprised it all hasn't been tied up on day one, but I haven't a clue how many levers to pull and cogs to turn there are.

But I'm sure no amount of shouting will help the process...except prompt the man 'who is being let down' to once again reiterate that 'we need time, patience'

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is the problem. Neither Eric Dier nor Harry Winks have improved in any significant way from when they were benched for the imperious back four of Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele.

But we have regressed to the point where they have become our best players.

This is the issue. We have allowed mediocre bench players to become key for us, and accepted mediocrity as the bar so when we come up against a genuinely talented side like Chelsea, they take us apart and look levels above us in technical ability, on-pitch intelligence and anticipation.

In general, Dier has been...okay. He still makes about one big error every game, but he's been okay in a three. Winks has been..okay. But lightweight, makes some good passes now and then, gets caught out of position a lot, but okay.

I myself given both credit for good performances now and then, but the wider viewpoint is that there was a time not so long ago when these performances were par for the course - when Toby and Jan ran every game with effortless ease, when Dembele and Wanyama destroyed all and sundry.

Accepting that Dier and Winks are in the team despite their game having stayed the same from 2016 to now is accepting that we won't return to that former level of play with Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele, players better than them.

That, imo, is one of the single biggest reasons we are where we are. We have let Sanchez, Dier, Davies and Winks bring expectations down to their level.

That needs to change.

You are reinventing things there though
Winks wasn’t benched for Dembele or wanyama… that’s a very different team to the one he came in

and Dier played CB with Toby and Verts regularly and also midfield in front of them. In their peak years here he averaged 32 leagues a season

but I agree you can find faults with them of course