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**** Chelsea v Tottenham Hotspur ****

DeanoAustin said:
Maybe I've missed the posts but I don't think I've seen much overreaction on here. Only an idiot would say Conte hasn't improved us and it'd take quite an argument to credibly claim he's not a top manager.

I'm delighted with him and 100% behind him. He's not above criticism though and I think he made some lousy decisions yesterday that ultimately cost us. Bad day at the office - even the best have them.
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He is a top coach, anyone can/should be able to see this. But like you say he isn’t beyond criticism and injuries or no injuries there are certain things he got wrong, but he is only a couple of months into the job - he is still learning about the team.

I do think some of our fans need this reality check though. Pre match there were various people on this thread expecting us to get at least a draw or win. Based on what exactly? We had played Chelsea three times and been outclassed EVERY time. We have not beaten a team under Conte higher than tenth. Yet there has consistently been this talk of catching Chelsea, seriously? We are only in the hunt for fourth because the Goons and Man U are relatively poor - not because we are particularly good. We have a long way to go, and if Conte is here to oversee it for a decent period of time we can get back to competing at the top. However that is a big if, very dependant on the backing that can be provided…..
 
DubaiSpur said:
Or, we have a few top four level players overperforming and dragging us upward (Kane, Son, Lloris), a few top six players playing to par (Reguilon? Maybe Lucas), some mid-table players playing at par (Hojbjerg, maybe Bergwijn) and the rest are lower mid-table and pull us further down (Dier, Sanchez, Davies, Winks, etc.). As for where we finish, it is a combination of the above, great managers able to keep us floating above where we should be (Poch, now Conte) or getting lucky for parts of the season (Mourinho).

It's no great extrapolation to argue this re: our squad quality. Look where the bench players we shipped out in past years have gone, and it's typically to clubs either in lower mid-table or mid-table/upper mid-table in Europe, which would translate to the same thing here. Those players were at the same level as the bench players we did keep, who are now all key pieces in the side.

Thus, we finish where we have over the last couple of years. The route back to where we were involves a mass clearout, which Poch had begged for as early as the spring of 2019. To date, it remains incomplete, and was further delayed because of duds like Ndombele and Lo Celso clogging up the squad further.
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That sounds like a top 6 squad to me

Some above, some below, most in the middle.

I don't know who you think is carrying the team to a top 4 position this season seeings as Kane & Son have hardly turned up for the most part
 
billyiddo said:
That sounds like a top 6 squad to me

Some above, some below, most in the middle.
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Nope. I'd argue maybe a fifth of the squad is top six quality (Kane, Son, Reguilon, Lloris, Lucas maybe), a fifth mid-table (Hojbjerg, Bergwijn, Dier, Davies, Skipp) , two-fifths lower mid-table or worse (Lo Celso, Ndombele, Winks, Sanchez, Doherty, Sessegnon, Alli, Rodon, Gollini, Tanganga) and the jury's out on the final few (Gil, Romero, Royal).

The center of weight of that bunch is mid to lower mid-table, imo.
 
harr1984 said:
He is a top coach, anyone can/should be able to see this. But like you say he isn’t beyond criticism and injuries or no injuries there are certain things he got wrong, but he is only a couple of months into the job - he is still learning about the team.

I do think some of our fans need this reality check though. Pre match there were various people on this thread expecting us to get at least a draw or win. Based on what exactly? We had played Chelsea three times and been outclassed EVERY time. We have not beaten a team under Conte higher than tenth. Yet there has consistently been this talk of catching Chelsea, seriously? We are only in the hunt for fourth because the Goons and Man U are relatively poor - not because we are particularly good. We have a long way to go, and if Conte is here to oversee it for a decent period of time we can get back to competing at the top. However that is a big if, very dependant on the backing that can be provided…..
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Agree wholeheartedly. The "he's x Premier League games without defeat" really annoyed me as it was being held up as some sort of evidence that he was on the road to being our greatest manager of all time. He's had a relatively easy time of it since he came in fixture wise - primarily home fixtures against mid table teams. The League Cup games and, to a lesser extent, the Mura game were evidence that yesterday was just a matter of time. That's not a criticism of Conte, he's been brilliant. More a comment on how silly some of the expectations were.

We're close to the top 4 - that's a hell of an achievement compared to where we were in October. But we've a long way to go and Conte, on his own, can only do so much. He gets this lot into the CL, that's the absolute maximum he can get out of this group and it'd go down as an unbelievable achievement. To achieve any more than that, he needs help and a lot of it.

We were only 30 seconds away from 2 defeats on the bounce which would have us all feeling a lot worse today than we do. We're much closer to the likes of Villa, Wolves, United, Woolwich than we are to the top 3.
 
billyiddo said:
That sounds like a top 6 squad to me

Some above, some below, most in the middle.
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Sounds sensible to me

what we do have in this league are 4 squads (not first teams) that have and mega money put into them higher than any clubs in the world apart from PsG. 3 of those have either won the league or champions league (and been in finals) in very very recent years and invested in top of that

we also have United who have spent money but appear to have no structure in their set up to benefit from that

what happens so sometimes you play a side and a player with quality does something brilliant (their first goal yesterday) which justifies their mega money fee and wages and it unpicks the work done by the coach and the players. it’s football and it happens

what we have to aim for this year is to be the best of the rest as the league has divided up like that. That’s still very viable and in our own hands too (we know what that normally means)
 
DubaiSpur said:
Nope. I'd argue maybe a fifth of the squad is top six quality (Kane, Son, Reguilon, Lloris, Lucas maybe), a fifth mid-table (Hojbjerg, Bergwijn, Dier, Davies, Skipp) , two-fifths lower mid-table or worse (Lo Celso, Ndombele, Winks, Sanchez, Doherty, Sessegnon, Alli, Rodon, Gollini, Tanganga) and the jury's out on the final few (Gil, Romero, Royal).

The center of weight of that bunch is mid to lower mid-table, imo.
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See my edit, your opinion on the squads level does not stack up with where we are without our top players dragging us up a level or two this season. You have lost the run of yourself on this topic and arent looking at things objectively because you're so invested in the clubs management being the root of all evil.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Agree wholeheartedly. The "he's x Premier League games without defeat" really annoyed me as it was being held up as some sort of evidence that he was on the road to being our greatest manager of all time. He's had a relatively easy time of it since he came in fixture wise - primarily home fixtures against mid table teams. The League Cup games and, to a lesser extent, the Mura game were evidence that yesterday was just a matter of time. That's not a criticism of Conte, he's been brilliant. More a comment on how silly some of the expectations were.

We're close to the top 4 - that's a hell of an achievement compared to where we were in October. But we've a long way to go and Conte, on his own, can only do so much. He gets this lot into the CL, that's the absolute maximum he can get out of this group and it'd go down as an unbelievable achievement. To achieve any more than that, he needs help and a lot of it.

We were only 30 seconds away from 2 defeats on the bounce which would have us all feeling a lot worse today than we do. We're much closer to the likes of Villa, Wolves, United, Woolwich than we are to the top 3.
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Your staying the obvious there
We’re closer to the teams that haven’t spent £100s of millions
No one could argue with that
 
billyiddo said:
See my edit, your opinion on the squads level does not stack up with where we are without our top players dragging us up a level or two this season. You have lost the run of yourself on this topic and arent looking at things objectively because you're so invested in the clubs management being the root of all evil.
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I think the opposite. Nuno showed where this squad is at - its true level, effectively without any management intervention. Utterly mid-table.

The only man dragging things higher than they would be is Conte, and he is fighting this squad's massive deficiencies to do so.

Poch did the same, manfully so, for years despite receiving no backing. Great managers can do that - turn sow's ears into silk purses.

But it says nothing about the ability of the squad. On that, Conte has been constantly and loudly saying for months that this lot are hopeless - I'd suggest your commitment to defending the way we're run is taking you off track from seeing that, because the evidence is there in every single press conference he gives.
 
DubaiSpur said:
I think the opposite. Nuno showed where this squad is at - its true level, effectively without any management intervention. Utterly mid-table.

The only man dragging things higher than they would be is Conte, and he is fighting this squad's massive deficiencies to do so.

Poch did the same, manfully so, for years despite receiving no backing. Great managers can do that - turn sow's ears into silk purses.

But it says nothing about the ability of the squad. On that, Conte has been constantly and loudly saying for months that this lot are hopeless - I'd suggest your commitment to defending the way we're run is taking you off track from seeing that, because the evidence is there in every single press conference he gives.
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And now we're back to my original post re Conte not being a miracle worker - it might suit your argument to believe a manager can turn water in to wine in a matter of weeks but occams razor suggests its that the players were under trained and under coached and not playing for a manager that looked like he didn't want to be here from the first day. Combined with 18 months of Jose-ball it's no wonder there has been a sharp turn around now that the basics are in place.
 
The quality of city, Liverpool and Chelsea is way above everyone else and skews the perspective.
Their sustained spending means they are not a proper comparison for not just us but most of the league.
We are as good as most others, certainly no worse than utd, arsenal or Leicester, most of whom have all spent more than we have.
If we really want to be challenging for not just top four but trophies we need to spend, but spend wisely. There are no oil or gas wells under NWHL.
Some fans of Tottenham, Everton, arsenal and Leicester need to realise we can't keep up with the top three clubs when it comes to spending.
 
DubaiSpur said:
I think the opposite. Nuno showed where this squad is at - its true level, effectively without any management intervention. Utterly mid-table.

The only man dragging things higher than they would be is Conte, and he is fighting this squad's massive deficiencies to do so.

Poch did the same, manfully so, for years despite receiving no backing. Great managers can do that - turn sow's ears into silk purses.

But it says nothing about the ability of the squad. On that, Conte has been constantly and loudly saying for months that this lot are hopeless - I'd suggest your commitment to defending the way we're run is taking you off track from seeing that, because the evidence is there in every single press conference he gives.
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So the manager doing his job makes a difference
Again we’re back to stating the obvious
 
billyiddo said:
You don't need to be as good as Chelsea to catch them, you don't play them every week- we're potentially right up with them if our games in hand work in our favour - get Son & Kane firing during the 2nd half of the season and why not?
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Agreed
You progress by beating all the teams you should
 
NaijaSpurs said:
@DubaiSpur I would suggest neither Winks or Dier have dragged has dragged us down this season, and Dier in particular has been out best defender.
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This is the problem. Neither Eric Dier nor Harry Winks have improved in any significant way from when they were benched for the imperious back four of Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele.

But we have regressed to the point where they have become our best players.

This is the issue. We have allowed mediocre bench players to become key for us, and accepted mediocrity as the bar so when we come up against a genuinely talented side like Chelsea, they take us apart and look levels above us in technical ability, on-pitch intelligence and anticipation.

In general, Dier has been...okay. He still makes about one big error every game, but he's been okay in a three. Winks has been..okay. But lightweight, makes some good passes now and then, gets caught out of position a lot, but okay.

I myself given both credit for good performances now and then, but the wider viewpoint is that there was a time not so long ago when these performances were par for the course - when Toby and Jan ran every game with effortless ease, when Dembele and Wanyama destroyed all and sundry.

Accepting that Dier and Winks are in the team despite their game having stayed the same from 2016 to now is accepting that we won't return to that former level of play with Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele, players better than them.

That, imo, is one of the single biggest reasons we are where we are. We have let Sanchez, Dier, Davies and Winks bring expectations down to their level.

That needs to change.
 
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