**** Chelsea v Tottenham Hotspur ****

[Yiddo]

As much as i rate Conte as a manager he fudged us over 3 times against Chelsea. Chelsea struggle against teams who play with no fear against them and we struggle when we have to defend 80% of the match. We should have gone at them.

 

[braineclipse]

Are you genuinely using today's game for that summation of our club? Dear me...

1. Bergwijn got into several fine positions, he didn't finish but he instinctively seems to know where to be.
2. Doherty was serviceable. Everyone sees an upgrade is needed, however he cost us nothing and was nearly on the end of a tap-in.
3. Sess is building confidence.
4. Compared to Chelski? No. Compared to a host of other teams? Maybe. It is why we want Kessie I'm sure.
5. We were well set out today despite injuries, and had the ref not given a phantom foul, we'd have seen how that shape worked defending a lead second-half. In fact, watch the game back. We created many opportunities to capitalize, the problem is we lack quality in the final pass too often. We are closer than people think.

Sad to see the overreaction. If people don't see the progress under Conte, well, there's nothing more to discuss here. Expect to add that he needs the upgrades he wants in the next 12 months I still believe that between his skills and the system we play with, plus returning stars, we will finish top 4. What was missing today was technical execution at key moments from the precise areas he has asked for upgrades in. Chelsea's tekkers are spot on, their passes executed superbly, nearly every one. We still play the wrong weight/trajactory too often at split second moments. We are, however IMO, far closer than many of you think in terms of a really strong 16. We then ned to beef up the bench.

Spot on mate.

I don't think there were tactical reasons to bench Emerson, Reguilon, Lucas. With Romero and Son injured that's a lot of our starting 11 missing. So much so that we're starting Doherty as a right sided midfielder in a 4-4-2...

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Some of you drivel I have read on this thread since the final whistle is pitiful. First league defeat in 10 games and most of you seem to be over reacting.

We look a better team under Conte, and as yet we have failed to improve the squad. All he needs is time and backing.

 

[Bishop]

Sad to see the overreaction. If people don't see the progress under Conte, well, there's nothing more to discuss here. Expect to add that he needs the upgrades he wants in the next 12 months I still believe that between his skills and the system we play with, plus returning stars, we will finish top 4. What was missing today was technical execution at key moments from the precise areas he has asked for upgrades in. Chelsea's tekkers are spot on, their passes executed superbly, nearly every one. We still play the wrong weight/trajactory too often at split second moments. We are, however IMO, far closer than many of you think in terms of a really strong 16. We then ned to beef up the bench.

Are people saying they don't see progress or are they saying despite the obvious progress we still aren't there yet. I think it's much more the latter than the former. It's possible to improve (we have) and still not be ultimately good enough to achieve your targets. That would be my concern, clearly we are better but that is worked within the rather large limitations of this side. We are close to 4th and it's definitely possible but it's not because we are a dominant team likely to get 80+ points it's because just like us our rivals for top 4 are inconsistent and likely to drop points.

Conte has clearly stated multiple times that he wants more than he has now. Why are you upset that some fans are also stating the same thing? We all want the same end goal, improvement and a genuine quality side.

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[thfcsteff]

Are people saying they don't see progress or are they saying despite the obvious progress we still aren't there yet. I think it's much more the latter than the former. It's possible to improve (we have) and still not be ultimately good enough to achieve your targets. That would be my concern, clearly we are better but that is worked within the rather large limitations of this side. We are close to 4th and it's definitely possible but it's not because we are a dominant team likely to get 80+ points it's because just like us our rivals for top 4 are inconsistent and likely to drop points.

Conte has clearly stated multiple times that he wants more than he has now. Why are you upset that some fans are also stating the same thing? We all want the same end goal, improvement and a genuine quality side.

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Conte got the job on November 2nd. So approximately 10 weeks ago. We just lost our first premier league match since he arrived. What targets did anyone realistically have before then? Now we have a target of 4th. I don’t care how that happens in the next few months, just get it, give him summer support with CL behind us and then we can start to really kick on again. There is not a supporter with functional sense who doesn’t know we need some upgrades. That we are in the position we are is fantastic all told. To answer your last question, I think it is asinine to repeat what the manager has stated beyond agreeing with him. The way some people complain you’d think they were the first to have noticed we have a few issues…

 

[Lemonade Money]

Some of you drivel I have read on this thread since the final whistle is pitiful. First league defeat in 10 games and most of you seem to be over reacting.

We look a better team under Conte, and as yet we have failed to improve the squad. All he needs is time and backing.

This is what happens when you give idiots a voice. Mods should get rid of few and they can go and stink out another forum.

 

[Spoonman]

Are people saying they don't see progress or are they saying despite the obvious progress we still aren't there yet. I think it's much more the latter than the former. It's possible to improve (we have) and still not be ultimately good enough to achieve your targets. That would be my concern, clearly we are better but that is worked within the rather large limitations of this side. We are close to 4th and it's definitely possible but it's not because we are a dominant team likely to get 80+ points it's because just like us our rivals for top 4 are inconsistent and likely to drop points.

Conte has clearly stated multiple times that he wants more than he has now. Why are you upset that some fans are also stating the same thing? We all want the same end goal, improvement and a genuine quality side.

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Very good post. Sums it up nicely, as does an article on the BBC by Jenas which touches on all the things that have been discussed here post match.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60072955

 

[Bishop]

Conte got the job on November 2nd. So approximately 10 weeks ago. We just lost our first premier league match since he arrived. What targets did anyone realistically have before then? Now we have a target of 4th. I don’t care how that happens in the next few months, just get it, give him summer support with CL behind us and then we can start to really kick on again. There is not a supporter with functional sense who doesn’t know we need some upgrades. That we are in the position we are is fantastic all told. To answer your last question, I think it is asinine to repeat what the manager has stated beyond agreeing with him. The way some people complain you’d think they were the first to have noticed we have a few issues…

This is a forum, people are going to debate and discuss the hot topic of the moment and really this season that is the lack of quality. What else do you expect people to talk about on a football team fan site? [emoji1787]



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[elltrev]

I’m still bitter that Silva’s two-handed, full body push on Davies before his goal got literally zero attention from Sky or BBC.

(Same goes for Skipp’s rugby tackling in the box too to be fair, but by that point the game was already over).

 

[90sSpursBook]

I think Conte didn't handle the League Cup semi-final's well at all in terms of his selection (particularly the second leg) and his general demeanour which looked very defeatist and I'm sure permeated its way into the team. However, I think bigger picture is that in a particularly busy schedule with a wafer thin squad the League Cup, even at SF, should be completely subservient to the challenge of qualifying for next season's Champions League which, largely due to Conte's arrival, is now a very realistic opportunity.

As for yesterday's game the writing was really on the wall once the teams were announced. If he didn't say it directly we can be sure that Lucas, Skipp and Reggie were nursing injuries and so couldnt risk playing another high intensity 90 minute match. Even with International break upcoming for any of them to pick up a 4 week+ muscular injury now would have been a killer for us. When you actually look at our starting XI yesterday - Kane and Lloris aside that is basically a mid-table quality team - you could put those names (Tanganga, Davies, Sanchez, Dier, Doherty, Winks, Hojbjerg, Sessegnon, Bergwijn) and as a collective they'd fit an Aston Villa, Crystal Palace or Southampton.

We were, to quote Harry, "down to the bare bones" but doggedly stuck to a game plan and showed desire and were scandalously denied a very good goal.

Everything so far comes from the rational side of my brain.....

The visceral emotions though stem from once again having our pants pulled down by Chelsea and I can't help feeling that they've well and truly got the hex over us again much as they did throughout much of the 90s and early 00's. I really don't think there's another team on the planet that we could play 4 times in a season and lose all 4 not even scoring a sodding goal. Equally I dont think there's another PL team Chelsea would be beat 4/4 without conceding a goal. Their results of late have been ordinary - Man U, Burnley, Everton and Brighton have all got a point at Stamford Bridge; Leeds were only denied a point with a stoppage time penalty. We've really made them look much better than they are.

Whilst we were dogged for 45 minutes yesterday, and there have been periods of other CHelsea games where we've been on the front foot the overriding memory of our last 10 or so games against them has just been a meek and defeated attitude time and time again. It doesn't seem to happen against other teams - Liverpool invariably beat us but we cause them problems and have gone down to very late and unfortunate goals. Emirates Marketing Project can't score against us at THS - both have been better than Chelsea since 2019.

Overall, this has been a good week for us - having beaten Leicester yesterday was something of a free hit especially with Woolwich dropping points but for intangible purposes alone we really need to sort ourselves out when it comes to Chelsea.

 

[Jurgen the German]

This is what happens when you give idiots a voice. Mods should get rid of few and they can go and stink out another forum.

This post sums up what is wrong with todays generation. I don’t like something therefore it needs to be banned. It’s not enough to not like something or someone and just avoid it/them. reminds me of Ricky Gervais’s standup when he talks about people being angry on Twitter and it’s likeness to walking into a town square and seeing a sign for guitar lessons and saying angrily “but I don’t fudging want guitar lessons”.

 

[Legohamster]

As much as i rate Conte as a manager he fudged us over 3 times against Chelsea. Chelsea struggle against teams who play with no fear against them and we struggle when we have to defend 80% of the match. We should have gone at them.

in an ideal world yes.

But we didn’t have to players available yesterday to go at them.

 

[Legohamster]

I think Conte didn't handle the League Cup semi-final's well at all in terms of his selection (particularly the second leg) and his general demeanour which looked very defeatist and I'm sure permeated its way into the team. However, I think bigger picture is that in a particularly busy schedule with a wafer thin squad the League Cup, even at SF, should be completely subservient to the challenge of qualifying for next season's Champions League which, largely due to Conte's arrival, is now a very realistic opportunity.

As for yesterday's game the writing was really on the wall once the teams were announced. If he didn't say it directly we can be sure that Lucas, Skipp and Reggie were nursing injuries and so couldnt risk playing another high intensity 90 minute match. Even with International break upcoming for any of them to pick up a 4 week+ muscular injury now would have been a killer for us. When you actually look at our starting XI yesterday - Kane and Lloris aside that is basically a mid-table quality team - you could put those names (Tanganga, Davies, Sanchez, Dier, Doherty, Winks, Hojbjerg, Sessegnon, Bergwijn) and as a collective they'd fit an Aston Villa, Crystal Palace or Southampton.

We were, to quote Harry, "down to the bare bones" but doggedly stuck to a game plan and showed desire and were scandalously denied a very good goal.

Everything so far comes from the rational side of my brain.....

The visceral emotions though stem from once again having our pants pulled down by Chelsea and I can't help feeling that they've well and truly got the hex over us again much as they did throughout much of the 90s and early 00's. I really don't think there's another team on the planet that we could play 4 times in a season and lose all 4 not even scoring a sodding goal. Equally I dont think there's another PL team Chelsea would be beat 4/4 without conceding a goal. Their results of late have been ordinary - Man U, Burnley, Everton and Brighton have all got a point at Stamford Bridge; Leeds were only denied a point with a stoppage time penalty. We've really made them look much better than they are.

Whilst we were dogged for 45 minutes yesterday, and there have been periods of other CHelsea games where we've been on the front foot the overriding memory of our last 10 or so games against them has just been a meek and defeated attitude time and time again. It doesn't seem to happen against other teams - Liverpool invariably beat us but we cause them problems and have gone down to very late and unfortunate goals. Emirates Marketing Project can't score against us at THS - both have been better than Chelsea since 2019.

Overall, this has been a good week for us - having beaten Leicester yesterday was something of a free hit especially with Woolwich dropping points but for intangible purposes alone we really need to sort ourselves out when it comes to Chelsea.

At the start of the week I’m pretty sure most realistic people would have taken 3 points from the two tough away games

 

[DubaiSpur]

Saying we're far from being an important team (team on Chelsea/City level) is a world away from the brick that gets posted about the squad on here as though it's relegation fodder every time we lose.


Wrt to your other reply, Conte has been here a matter of weeks - he's a top class/world class coach, not a miracle worker - all he has been able to do is train and organise the players to play like a team, the fact we've seen such improvement with so little time shows what has been lacking the past couple of years and through the terrible managerial appointments

It is a mid-table squad. I think that's where folks are settling on, with the acceptable hyperbole that comes whenever the squad's many, many limitations are shown up against better sides.

This is a squad that would finish 8th-12th, absent a good coach who makes them into more than the sum of their limited parts.

Again, look at some of the individual players in that side we put out.

Ben Davies, bench warmer for Danny Rose in our best sides - slow and stolid.
Eric Dier, bench warmer for Jan and Toby in our best sides - slow and always has an error in him.
Matt Doherty - mid-table clogger from Wolves, atrocious for us.
Ryan Sessegnon - raw kid signed from relegated Fulham in 2019 who has barely done anything in the two years since.
Hojbjerg - limited, mid-table midfield destroyer signed from Southampton.
Harry Winks - bench warmer for Dembele + Wanyama in our best sides.

It goes on and on, with Sanchez, Lucas et al.

These are the equivalents of Kevin Wimmer, Clinton N'Jie and Serge Aurier - fine when being carried by players far better than them, but exposed when they aren't. They now form the backbone of the squad - how is that anything but a rapid decline?

In which case you could argue that given our model, we've actually done the smartest thing possible. Win THAT battle, get 4th and then invest...the key bit being that we actually do invest, something I am prepared to agree is far from a gimme...

That 1000 IQ gamble by our chairman depends on two factors -

1) that we actually get top four on the cheap, with no investment; and

2) that Conte sticks around when he sees the reality that Levy is trying to avoid giving him any backing whatsoever so he can do a job and hopefully, maybe, finish in top four.

If either of those are proven wrong, the cheap gamble backfires. The chances of one of the two, if not both, happening are quite large - squad quality tells, and United and Arsenal both have better squads that have received significant investment and will continue to do so. There is no guarantee Conte can battle against the tide with this band of hapless cloggers forever.

And if we are in the situation come April where our cowardly owners have left him high and dry with our chances of top four over, why on Earth would he stay to see things out? It would be clear at that point that Levy and Lewis never learn, are delighted with mediocrity on the cheap, and he will never be backed - why tarnish your rep as a world class manager?

So, if he walks, the gamble also collapses.

So, is it the 'smartest thing possible' to do nothing until we maybe get top four and then apparently invest?

Nope. I'd argue it's foolish. It's parsimonious. It's penny-wise, pound stupid.

And it's trademark Daniel Levy and Joe Lewis, the craven deadweights dragging this club down. So you may well be right, but it certainly isn't good for the club if you are.

 

[billyiddo]

... a mid table squad that has finished outside of the top 6 once (7th) and look a good bet for top 4 this season? Ok so they're either a collection of mid table players playing above themselves, a top 4 set of players playing below or a top 6 side playing to par - much more likely to be the latter than the former because i don't think many players have been doing themselves proud the past couple of years and i think in terms of pure ability it's hard to argue many(any) would get in to the top 3 squads.

I can't imagine average players exceeding their level would garner the reaction that you and others dish out whenever we play badly so must be something else.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Aside from resting Hugo in the second leg, we have to realise that decisions made by managers are often due to factors that we do not have knowledge off. For instance some players sometimes start on the bench simply because they cannot give more than 20 minutes.

 

[Diamond Lights]

whilst everyone complaining of Conte's selection, the point is, had we have gone a goal up like we should have, game would have been VERY different, especially based on recent Chelsea form.

Completely changed the complextion of the match. VAR is there to check for such things. Plain and simple, if Chelsea scored that at the other end, is the referee disallowing it? Not on your nelly.

Anyway, until we actually back Conte he's working with scraps.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Some of you drivel I have read on this thread since the final whistle is pitiful. First league defeat in 10 games and most of you seem to be over reacting.

We look a better team under Conte, and as yet we have failed to improve the squad. All he needs is time and backing.

Maybe I've missed the posts but I don't think I've seen much overreaction on here. Only an idiot would say Conte hasn't improved us and it'd take quite an argument to credibly claim he's not a top manager.

I'm delighted with him and 100% behind him. He's not above criticism though and I think he made some lousy decisions yesterday that ultimately cost us. Bad day at the office - even the best have them.

 

[DubaiSpur]

... a mid table squad that has finished outside of the top 6 once (7th) ? Ok so they're either a collection of mid table players playing above themselves, a top 4 set of players playing below or a top 6 side playing to par - much more likely to be the latter than the former because i don't think many players have been doing themselves proud the past couple of years and i think in terms of pure ability it's hard to argue many(any) would get in to the top 3 squads.

I can't imagine average players exceeding their level would garner the reaction that you and others dish out whenever we play badly do mist be something else.

Or, we have a few top four level players overperforming and dragging us upward (Kane, Son, Lloris), a few top six players playing to par (Reguilon? Maybe Lucas), some mid-table players playing at par (Hojbjerg, maybe Bergwijn) and the rest are lower mid-table and pull us further down (Dier, Sanchez, Davies, Winks, etc.). As for where we finish, it is a combination of the above, great managers able to keep us floating above where we should be (Poch, now Conte) or getting lucky for parts of the season (Mourinho).

It's no great extrapolation to argue this re: our squad quality. Look where the bench players we shipped out in past years have gone, and it's typically to clubs either in lower mid-table or mid-table/upper mid-table in Europe, which would translate to the same thing here. Those players were at the same level as the bench players we did keep, who are now all key pieces in the side.

Thus, we finish where we have over the last couple of years. The route back to where we were involves a mass clearout, which Poch had begged for as early as the spring of 2019. To date, it remains incomplete, and was further delayed because of duds like Ndombele and Lo Celso clogging up the squad further.

 

[glasgowspur]

Or, we have a few top four level players overperforming and dragging us upward (Kane, Son, Lloris), a few top six players playing to par (Reguilon? Maybe Lucas), some mid-table players playing at par (Hojbjerg, maybe Bergwijn) and the rest are lower mid-table and pull us further down (Dier, Sanchez, Davies, Winks, etc.). As for where we finish, it is a combination of the above, great managers able to keep us floating above where we should be (Poch, now Conte) or getting lucky for parts of the season (Mourinho).

It's no great extrapolation to argue this re: our squad quality. Look where the bench players we shipped out in past years have gone, and it's typically to clubs either in lower mid-table or mid-table/upper mid-table in Europe, which would translate to the same thing here. Those players were at the same level as the bench players we did keep, who are now all key pieces in the side.

Thus, we finish where we have over the last couple of years. The route back to where we were involves a mass clearout, which Poch had begged for as early as the spring of 2019. To date, it remains incomplete, and was further delayed because of duds like Ndombele and Lo Celso clogging up the squad further.

Kane and son are not over performing.