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**** Chelsea v Tottenham Hotspur ****

Bedfordspurs said:
You are reinventing things there though
Winks wasn’t benched for Dembele or wanyama… that’s a very different team to the one he came in

and Dier played CB with Toby and Verts regularly and also midfield in front of them. In their peak years here he averaged 32 leagues a season

but I agree you can find faults with them of course
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Yep - I was speaking generally in an attempt to compare Dier and Winks to Toby+Jan and Wanyama+Dembele. Although I will say that Dier wasn't first choice in 2016-2017 when those four were in their prime - he was first off the bench for Wanyama/alternated with him, but he wasn't first choice, Wanyama was.

And likewise with Winks the next year, 17-18 - he wasn't first choice, he alternated with a declining Dembele + Sissoko + Dier + the rare times Wanyama was fit and available.

glasgowspur said:
What's your definition of success?
I don't think anyone on here thinks conte can walk in and turn us into a title winning side in two years. This isn't Italy.
There isn't a man born who could do that.
It's something that puzzles me about all of this, conte must have known this, so he's here to build or a payout. Doesn't strike me as a payout kind of person.
There's a lot of interesting little scenarios going on and it will be interesting to see how they play out.
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Good question. Honestly, success for me this season would be top four and a trophy (i.e, the FA Cup, the only trophy we have left). Success next season would be top four and another trophy.

I don't expect miracles as long as ENIC is here - daring to dream will have to wait until we have new, better owners who care about Spurs as a football team, not a property investment vehicle.

Two trophies and CL football is about the baseline for what I think Conte would consider success as well - and what the football world would consider a successful tenure at Spurs. CV burnished by turning around the football world's perennial (perceived) underachievers, he can go on to United or Madrid or wherever and we can get Poch back/get a longer-term manager in place. I don't think he'll be here for more than 2022-2023 in any case, so this is about the max we can hope for.

Problem is, in my eyes, none of that is possible with the squad we have now - major, major surgery is required even to finish in the top four this season, never mind the rest. Will we get it? That's the question with a week to go.

As for what Conte wants, I honestly think Conte just missed out on United - he jumped too early, when if he'd waited a week he would have gotten a club more capable of matching his title-winning ambitions. We can't under ENIC. He might have buyers' remorse watching how we've flailed at backing him for the past few weeks.
 
thfcsteff said:
Are you genuinely using today's game for that summation of our club? Dear me...

1. Bergwijn got into several fine positions, he didn't finish but he instinctively seems to know where to be.
2. Doherty was serviceable. Everyone sees an upgrade is needed, however he cost us nothing and was nearly on the end of a tap-in.
3. Sess is building confidence.
4. Compared to Chelski? No. Compared to a host of other teams? Maybe. It is why we want Kessie I'm sure.
5. We were well set out today despite injuries, and had the ref not given a phantom foul, we'd have seen how that shape worked defending a lead second-half. In fact, watch the game back. We created many opportunities to capitalize, the problem is we lack quality in the final pass too often. We are closer than people think.
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Overoptimism personified. We are far far away from being a CL team.

Most disappointing for me was we set up to fail. Only two attackers on the field to start the game and one in a position he really isn't suited to. We were weak, weak weak all over the park. Have we not learnt anything? Skipp simply has to start these type of games. Why did Conte change what worked pretty well at Leicester. Mystifying decisions. Who knew what formation we were playing to begin with? This defeat and the manner of it was totally on Conte. Hopefully, he was just using it to send a message to the Board. Otherwise, just inexplicable.
 
Pirate55 said:
Overoptimism personified. We are far far away from being a CL team.

Most disappointing for me was we set up to fail. Only two attackers on the field to start the game and one in a position he really isn't suited to. We were weak, weak weak all over the park. Have we not learnt anything? Skipp simply has to start these type of games. Why did Conte change what worked pretty well at Leicester. Mystifying decisions. Who knew what formation we were playing to begin with? This defeat and the manner of it was totally on Conte. Hopefully, he was just using it to send a message to the Board. Otherwise, just inexplicable.
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Because skipp moura and royal had knocks.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Maybe I've missed the posts but I don't think I've seen much overreaction on here. Only an idiot would say Conte hasn't improved us and it'd take quite an argument to credibly claim he's not a top manager.

I'm delighted with him and 100% behind him. He's not above criticism though and I think he made some lousy decisions yesterday that ultimately cost us. Bad day at the office - even the best have them.
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Nailed it!
 
Bishop said:
This is a forum, people are going to debate and discuss the hot topic of the moment and really this season that is the lack of quality. What else do you expect people to talk about on a football team fan site? [emoji1787]



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I have no problem with that at all. You asked me a question. I answered it. You want me to apologize for not joining in and banging on over and over about a Captain Obvious issue at the club right now? Oh well.:D
 
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DubaiSpur said:
It is a mid-table squad. I think that's where folks are settling on, with the acceptable hyperbole that comes whenever the squad's many, many limitations are shown up against better sides.

This is a squad that would finish 8th-12th, absent a good coach who makes them into more than the sum of their limited parts.

Again, look at some of the individual players in that side we put out.

Ben Davies, bench warmer for Danny Rose in our best sides - slow and stolid.
Eric Dier, bench warmer for Jan and Toby in our best sides - slow and always has an error in him.
Matt Doherty - mid-table clogger from Wolves, atrocious for us.
Ryan Sessegnon - raw kid signed from relegated Fulham in 2019 who has barely done anything in the two years since.
Hojbjerg - limited, mid-table midfield destroyer signed from Southampton.
Harry Winks - bench warmer for Dembele + Wanyama in our best sides.

It goes on and on, with Sanchez, Lucas et al.

These are the equivalents of Kevin Wimmer, Clinton N'Jie and Serge Aurier - fine when being carried by players far better than them, but exposed when they aren't. They now form the backbone of the squad - how is that anything but a rapid decline?




That 1000 IQ gamble by our chairman depends on two factors -

1) that we actually get top four on the cheap, with no investment; and

2) that Conte sticks around when he sees the reality that Levy is trying to avoid giving him any backing whatsoever so he can do a job and hopefully, maybe, finish in top four.

If either of those are proven wrong, the cheap gamble backfires. The chances of one of the two, if not both, happening are quite large - squad quality tells, and United and Arsenal both have better squads that have received significant investment and will continue to do so. There is no guarantee Conte can battle against the tide with this band of hapless cloggers forever.

And if we are in the situation come April where our cowardly owners have left him high and dry with our chances of top four over, why on Earth would he stay to see things out? It would be clear at that point that Levy and Lewis never learn, are delighted with mediocrity on the cheap, and he will never be backed - why tarnish your rep as a world class manager?

So, if he walks, the gamble also collapses.

So, is it the 'smartest thing possible' to do nothing until we maybe get top four and then apparently invest?

Nope. I'd argue it's foolish. It's parsimonious. It's penny-wise, pound stupid.

And it's trademark Daniel Levy and Joe Lewis, the craven deadweights dragging this club down. So you may well be right, but it certainly isn't good for the club if you are.
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For me, this is why we cannot lose with Conte's appointment, and I said it at the time he was appointed. This is a definitive moment in our history and we will get answers one way or another, because Conte is not a liar or trumper plus he is an excellent manager/coach. So if HE walks, then no-one can argue about the source of the problem - if only because IF you hire Conte, you do it knowing what that takes.

One way or another, answers will happen. Here's hoping we see the wood for the trees or else the forest will burn down...
 
Pirate55 said:
Overoptimism personified. We are far far away from being a CL team.

Most disappointing for me was we set up to fail. Only two attackers on the field to start the game and one in a position he really isn't suited to. We were weak, weak weak all over the park. Have we not learnt anything? Skipp simply has to start these type of games. Why did Conte change what worked pretty well at Leicester. Mystifying decisions. Who knew what formation we were playing to begin with? This defeat and the manner of it was totally on Conte. Hopefully, he was just using it to send a message to the Board. Otherwise, just inexplicable.
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We set up as a pretty stringent 4-4-2, that seemed clear enough, albeit formations flex according to passages of play.

I think Skipp was one of the players carrying a knock. We had several injuries being managed.

I don't disagree we are not the ideal CL team right now, and are currently comparable to an average group CL team (3rd in a group, that level) but our first fully-fit 11 is top drawer, it remains the fringes and squad which need quality elevation. I think we're absolutely in the seat for 4th right now (maths aside). But close to a final again? No. Agreed.
 
thfcsteff said:
For me, this is why we cannot lose with Conte's appointment, and I said it at the time he was appointed. This is a definitive moment in our history and we will get answers one way or another, because Conte is not a liar or trumper plus he is an excellent manager/coach. So if HE walks, then no-one can argue about the source of the problem - if only because IF you hire Conte, you do it knowing what that takes.

One way or another, answers will happen. Here's hoping we see the wood for the trees or else the forest will burn down...
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I don't disagree - personally, as I said, either we seriously back him and I'm happy, or he walks and everyone finally sees ENIC for the deadweights they are, which would console me. ;)

Part of my pleas for us to actually do something in January instead of falling back on the same pathetic excuses we always do is actually a plea to Levy - save your own skin, because you don't understand what awaits you if Conte walks away.

Fan outrage, a hostile environment at every home game - and probably most dangerously for any club reliant on matchday revenue - fan apathy, as folks simply drift away.

Anything that gets us one step closer to ENIC sodding off is a step towards our long-term health as a club. So we can't lose. But why does it have to go down that way? That's my question to that chairman and owner duo I loathe. You really don't mind what's coming if we lose Conte due to no backing and appoint another Nuno-esque yes-man in his wake?
 
DubaiSpur said:
I don't disagree - personally, as I said, either we seriously back him and I'm happy, or he walks and everyone finally sees ENIC for the deadweights they are, which would console me. ;)

Part of my pleas for us to actually do something in January instead of falling back on the same pathetic excuses we always do is actually a plea to Levy - save your own skin, because you don't understand what awaits you if Conte walks away.

Fan outrage, a hostile environment at every home game - and probably most dangerously for any club reliant on matchday revenue - fan apathy, as folks simply drift away.

Anything that gets us one step closer to ENIC sodding off is a step towards our long-term health as a club. So we can't lose. But why does it have to go down that way? That's my question to that chairman and owner duo I loathe. You really don't mind what's coming if we lose Conte due to no backing and appoint another Nuno-esque yes-man in his wake?
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I don’t believe conte has ever left a top contract early
I think it’s a spin on why he left Chelsea (won in court) and at inter where they agreed mutually after they asked him to take a pay cut (if I’ve read that right)
He did leave some minor roles when he was a novice manager though at sienna IIRC
 
thfcsteff said:
I have no problem with that at all. You asked me a question. I answered it. You want me to apologize for not joining in and banging on over and over about a Captain Obvious issue at the club right now? Oh well.:D
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Lol no but you complained that fans are saying the same thing the manager said. I just didn't really get your point, are fans only supposed to say the positive things or something? And nowhere did I say you have to feel the same way please don't see just what you want to see. [emoji23]

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Bishop said:
Lol no but you complained that fans are saying the same thing the manager said. I just didn't really get your point, are fans only supposed to say the positive things or something? And nowhere did I say you have to feel the same way please don't see just what you want to see. [emoji23]

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I did indeed complain about that. I can again if you'd like? To me personally, repeating the obvious (especially after that game) is a bot like repeatedly saying 'the sun rises in the East'...OK, but what's the light like in the area it's rising? Thus personally? I'd rather focus on what is developing than what we all know needs to be done.

Funnily, I called out our technical deficiencies in final execution yesterday myself on today's pod, so maybe (and again this is a personal preference) it's more about observing truths in a new light as opposed to repeating the same sentence over and over?

'Please just don't see you want to see'? Again, and without belaboring the point any further, is there anyone who does not think we are technically lacking in several areas? I actually felt the gameplan yesterday was really good; put the erroneously disallowed goal aside, albeit that was a game changer, we created enough positive passages of attacking play to have created a lot more chances had the final pass been better/vision better. Things that Chelsea just don't really get wrong as many times as we do.
 
DubaiSpur said:
I don't disagree - personally, as I said, either we seriously back him and I'm happy, or he walks and everyone finally sees ENIC for the deadweights they are, which would console me. ;)

Part of my pleas for us to actually do something in January instead of falling back on the same pathetic excuses we always do is actually a plea to Levy - save your own skin, because you don't understand what awaits you if Conte walks away.

Fan outrage, a hostile environment at every home game - and probably most dangerously for any club reliant on matchday revenue - fan apathy, as folks simply drift away.

Anything that gets us one step closer to ENIC sodding off is a step towards our long-term health as a club. So we can't lose. But why does it have to go down that way? That's my question to that chairman and owner duo I loathe. You really don't mind what's coming if we lose Conte due to no backing and appoint another Nuno-esque yes-man in his wake?
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Oh it would be soul- destroying. I'd be beyond crushed, if only because I don't think we'd have a shot at a finished top-class manager like that for at least a decade without pumped investment. I just know this is so beyond my control that I am simply taking a ticket to watch the ride, hoping we don't head south.
 
Thought we played OK but we really lack creativity in midfield - Winks, PEH and Skipp aren't going to pick the gaps regularly.
 
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