Ange in or out?

[Robspur12]

Ange Postecoglou defends Tottenham players in wake of Villa FA Cup exit

Ange Postecoglou defended his Tottenham players after his injury-hit side were knocked out of the FA Cup at Aston Villa

www.theguardian.com

That press conference yesterday was an attempt at a massive piece of deflection. Is anyone really criticising the players? Not really - the focus is on the ridiculous 'tactics', the evident lack of motivation provided, and the inability to manage a squad.

I heard him on the radio this morning and had to turn it off. It's pitiful now. I'm completely sick of his gaslighting.

Glad it's not just me who was angry at that press conference. Not an ounce of self awareness or reflection. Just as I referred to it previously, an attempt at reputation management when the inevitable does happen, i.e. I would have been fine if it wasn't for injuries and fatigue... Honestly can't wait for him to leave the club. Sadly, he clearly retains support in the board room and amongst 50% of the fans.

 

[Legohamster]

We haven't been awful for 17 months imo. Sure, if you thought we were awful up until the injuries got real bad too that's fine. But we see that very differently.

For me we were inconsistent, at times excellent at times poor for quite while, then "awful" when we suffered one of the worst injury crisis I can remember.

For me the unanswered question remains can he sort out the inconsistency with a mostly fit squad (normal levels of injuries).

Our performances and results during this injury crisis doesn't answer that question. I want to see that question answered because when we've been on our game we've been really special. And if he can get the inconsistency thing sorted we'd be on to something really good.

Let's say we keep him and give him a third season. We've had awful injury issues in both his seasons around the same sort of time

Given he's said it's partly down to him, what's going to change next year?

 

[Lilbaz]

Record since "mid November" - starting with Ipswich.
Excluding the quality of the opposition because I'm examining Ange's position that the injuries and exhaustion are the issue

W 8
D 5
L 10

You know what, maybe it's actually not as bad as it few.

That said, what are our expectations?
Fully fit, I'd say that becomes
W 13
D 3
L 7
At best. The pre injury form suggests something like that. I'm not convinced 7 defeats from 23 is good enough.

Fully fit squad should be challenging for top 4. Killing it in the europa.

 

[monkeybarry]

Fully fit squad should be challenging for top 4. Killing it in the europa.

With this manager?

 

[braineclipse]

I'm not having a go at all, but the problem with playing the 'injuries' card for so long is that once you get into it, it's endless.

Let's ignore injuries that will change a player for ever, like Dragusin's or Betancur's. But once a player is back in training, it doesn't mean he is back to his best. It will take a few games, likely as many as four or five, depending on the time he's spent on the sidelines. So, again, if the results aren't up to par, we already know why. I might add that Postecoglou's style is particularly unforgiving for players returning from injury, but that's another matter.

What are the chances we get zero injuries in that time? Even if we only get a couple of those (only...), then it will be back to 'I never got the chance to play a settled side'. By that time, there will be only 10-ish games left to play and nothing to play for and by the same logic, he might be given another season, just in case his luck with injuries get better.

I understand the logic (even if I disagree) and I also understand that some spectacular results have bought him a lot of good faith and patience but, for me, an elite manager wouldn't have set us up the way we did at Everton and, if only for that reason, I wouldn't take another chance on him (but, then again, I don't think I've been asked for my opinion!).

Doesn't feel like you're having a go. Hope the feeling is mutual.

I think the impact of injuries and fatigue on our recent months remains understated. Two games a week, between 8-11 players out injured for most of that 2.5 month period. With several key first team players included in that. To me if the "injury card" seems endless it's mostly because of the severity of the injury situation we've suffered.

I'm not going to judge him on having a settled side with zero new injuries. That's very unlikely to happen. Let's say having 16-17 fit first team players and only 2-3 or maybe 4 first choice players missing?

Enough to have some actual tactical flexibility instead of just which 11 players are mostly able to walk pre game. And a bench with 2-3 good options both in attacking and defensive areas.

Something like that. If that doesn't happen while there's still something meaningful left to play for this season he'll probably gone in the summer at the very latest regardless.

 

[Robspur12]

Which part of his career post Spurs has convinced you that he is able to come back and do better with a worse squad, in arguably a tougher league?

It seems very sentimental and I'm not saying it wouldn't work but in every job* it's been a disaster since it became a disaster at Spurs and he got the boot.

*I don't know how he's actually doing with the USA national team but respectfully I dgaf how he does against Panama and American Samoa

I know you're not a fan of his, but objectively I think his work at Chelsea, a team in chaos, when he arrived, was pretty impressive given where he left them. He has provided the base for Maresca to push on this season. Very likely would have done so himself had he stayed on.

I should mention in his last season he had a poorer squad, Kane aside, than what's there now as he dragged it to 4th and the Champions League final. But actually I don't want to go over old ground.

I loved Poch, still do, my heart would love him to come back, but my head says he shouldn't because of the division it would cause in the fan base. I don't think the arguments on glory glory would be good for my mental well-being tbh. My choice is to move forward with someone like Iraola.

 

[indospurs]

Gotta laugh, three London teams out of both domestic cups, but still in all three european ones

 

[Dicko]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1888932188378345877

 

[braineclipse]

Let's say we keep him and give him a third season. We've had awful injury issues in both his seasons around the same sort of time

Given he's said it's partly down to him, what's going to change next year?

I have to say I think we need a fairly strong finish to the season for that to happen.

If that happens we should have a stronger squad next season. Not just the summer window, but players like Gray, Bergvall, Moore, hopefully Odobert all stepping up a level as well as Kinsky and Danso - hopefully with Tel as well. That's a rather different starting point compared to the start of this season.

Secondly, assuming the "partly" part of your post and his statement being true and the injury situation this season being also in part due to bad luck, factors outside of Ange that may be rectified... Fewer injuries?

People do also often bring up the points about the intensity of the PL and the demands of playing twice a week in combination with that. Perhaps Ange has learned some things from that, things that most potential new managers would have to learn as well.

 

[Lilbaz]

With this manager?

No.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Let's say we keep him and give him a third season. We've had awful injury issues in both his seasons around the same sort of time

Given he's said it's partly down to him, what's going to change next year?

There would be a player exodus if he's still here. No current or potential players are going to want to go anywhere near the Injury Russian Roulette. Its already suspected that Maddison and Romero (at least) are effectively playing truant now to protect their bodies

 

[Muttley]

I have to say I think we need a fairly strong finish to the season for that to happen.

If that happens we should have a stronger squad next season. Not just the summer window, but players like Gray, Bergvall, Moore, hopefully Odobert all stepping up a level as well as Kinsky and Danso - hopefully with Tel as well. That's a rather different starting point compared to the start of this season.

Secondly, assuming the "partly" part of your post and his statement being true and the injury situation this season being also in part due to bad luck, factors outside of Ange that may be rectified... Fewer injuries?

People do also often bring up the points about the intensity of the PL and the demands of playing twice a week in combination with that. Perhaps Ange has learned some things from that, things that most potential new managers would have to learn as well.

For me, the fixtures are the fixtures and you need to plan accordingly. Obviously, team selection and subs can be a great way to manage that. However, there is the part that we cannot see and that is the training regime. You're obviously training differently with one game a week versus two.

As part of Ange's assimilation to the PL, I wonder whether he'll approach things differently in season 3. On a 41 game season, we saw "leggy" teams at times at the weekend after a week off. We also saw players complete games but then get reported as an injury in training during the following week. I just wonder whether Ange has had to learn the hard way in this league. You don't get to rest with the ball like playing some pretty poor sides in the SPL. As we found out a few days ago, the team without possession has a tough workout to regain the ball, unlike at Celtic where you probably had it back in seconds.

I know a lot of fans were advocating for Ange to stick with his methodology and it will work out in the end as the squad evolves. I wasn't one of them. I wanted him to work towards his end goal in stages and be very pragmatic, optimising at all times what he has to work with. There's still so many signs that he's unwilling to do that, even though there is some visible adaptation.

 

[Spoonman]

Let's say we keep him and give him a third season. We've had awful injury issues in both his seasons around the same sort of time

Given he's said it's partly down to him, what's going to change next year?

Exactly. It's just a never ending cycle. The more injuries players get, the more likely they are to get another one. Just look at Kane and his ankles. He had to adapt his game to solve that problem.

And what about new signings? Have they got to go through 1 or 2 seasons of injuries until they adapt to Ange's physical demands?

I doubt we will ever have near to a fully fit squad under his tenure whilst he sticks to his methods. The physical demands of the EPL are on a different level to his previous gigs.

 

[braineclipse]

For me, the fixtures are the fixtures and you need to plan accordingly. Obviously, team selection and subs can be a great way to manage that. However, there is the part that we cannot see and that is the training regime. You're obviously training differently with one game a week versus two.

As part of Ange's assimilation to the PL, I wonder whether he'll approach things differently in season 3. On a 41 game season, we saw "leggy" teams at times at the weekend after a week off. We also saw players complete games but then get reported as an injury in training during the following week. I just wonder whether Ange has had to learn the hard way in this league. You don't get to rest with the ball like playing some pretty poor sides in the SPL. As we found out a few days ago, the team without possession has a tough workout to regain the ball, unlike at Celtic where you probably had it back in seconds.

I know a lot of fans were advocating for Ange to stick with his methodology and it will work out in the end as the squad evolves. I wasn't one of them. I wanted him to work towards his end goal in stages and be very pragmatic, optimising at all times what he has to work with. There's still so many signs that he's unwilling to do that, even though there is some visible adaptation.

A couple of games now with full weeks of recovery and training between them.

I want Ange to drill the team on ideal Angeball now. No more adjustments or pragmatism. Press high, play ambitious, invert the full backs.

 

[glasgowspur]

There would be a player exodus if he's still here. No current or potential players are going to want to go anywhere near the Injury Russian Roulette. Its already suspected that Maddison and Romero (at least) are effectively playing truant now to protect their bodies

Well if both are doing that they can fudge off.
Not only is it unprofessional but it's a terrible way to treat your teammates.
If they don't want to be here they could have asked to be transferred in the window.

 

[harr1984]

Well if both are doing that they can fudge off.
Not only is it unprofessional but it's a terrible way to treat your teammates.
If they don't want to be here they could have asked to be transferred in the window.

I would agree, but lets be fair this is just GB's baseless speculation. The two players in question aren't exactly strangers to the treatment room....

 

[Kompakted]

We haven't been awful for 17 months imo. Sure, if you thought we were awful up until the injuries got real bad too that's fine. But we see that very differently.

For me we were inconsistent, at times excellent at times poor for quite while, then "awful" when we suffered one of the worst injury crisis I can remember.

For me the unanswered question remains can he sort out the inconsistency with a mostly fit squad (normal levels of injuries).

Our performances and results during this injury crisis doesn't answer that question. I want to see that question answered because when we've been on our game we've been really special. And if he can get the inconsistency thing sorted we'd be on to something really good.

There's then the question of whether his methods are wholly or partly responsible for the injuries (we suffered catastrophic injuries mainly across defence and midfield last season which resulted in 5 losses in a 9 game streak with Ben Davies and Emerson Royal playing CB for some of those games which dropped us off the pace rapidly after his first 10 games). In which case the question over what Ange can do with the consistency given a fully fit squad may actually be a moot point

 

[Baleforce]

Gotta laugh, three London teams out of both domestic cups, but still in all three european ones

Priorities

 

[glasgowspur]

I would agree, but lets be fair this is just GB's baseless speculation. The two players in question aren't exactly strangers to the treatment room....

Yes agreed, and although my ire may appear to be aimed at the players it is actually at these silly posts that don't help anyone.

 

[Kompakted]

Glad it's not just me who was angry at that press conference. Not an ounce of self awareness or reflection. Just as I referred to it previously, an attempt at reputation management when the inevitable does happen, i.e. I would have been fine if it wasn't for injuries and fatigue... Honestly can't wait for him to leave the club. Sadly, he clearly retains support in the board room and amongst 50% of the fans.

Who do these flamin' mongrels think they are, don't you know i won the "time to kangaroo down sport" cup in my second season with Bush whacker koala humpers FC???