Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[Cochise]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Papering over the cracks is winning when your average performance is terrible and one moment of brilliance turns the draw into a win.
"Just winning" for me is when the team turn up and scrape a win due to lack of desire/injuries/fatigue.

The difference some see is that we have yet to see a Spurs side come out and tear an opponent apart 3-0, 4-0. Just winning for me is a team that can turn it on when they like but don't from game to game because of any of the aforementionned factors. Kinda like how the gooners/City at the moment can on their day pull teams apart but on their off day scrape a 1-0. Our average at the moment is slow plodding with little incision (the cracks if you will). Their average is free flowing football.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Papering over the cracks is winning when your average performance is terrible and one moment of brilliance turns the draw into a win.
"Just winning" for me is when the team turn up and scrape a win due to lack of desire/injuries/fatigue.

The difference some see is that we have yet to see a Spurs side come out and tear an opponent apart 3-0, 4-0. Just winning for me is a team that can turn it on when they like but don't from game to game because of any of the aforementionned factors. Kinda like how the gooners/City at the moment can on their day pull teams apart but on their off day scrape a 1-0. Our average at the moment is slow plodding with little incision (the cracks if you will). Their average is free flowing football.

It is very rare we will come out and beat a side 3 or 4 nil. If we want to punch above our weight, there is simply no need to do that.

Liverpool last night, when they were 4 goals up against Norwich, were still pressing to all hell and trying to get another goal at the end of the match. Many people would probably think 'great' but I do not believe they will keep that intensity up and get results over a season doing it. Brendan Rodgers strikes me as a Wenger type 'idealist' and his giddy 'I loved watching my team play tonight' response in his post-match remarks suggested he wasn't giving much mind to the rest of the season. But there's been a few times during his time at Liverpool where they've absolutely smashed teams, Rodgers has talked about how a return to the CL is not far off and they've then been completely underwhelming in the next game.

City will tear teams apart and still go on to compete for the league because they have the squad to do it. Liverpool don't really have that luxury and I firmly believe they will get found out in the next few months. Us, we kind of have the squad, but we need to get to a place of consistency we have never really attained before and we will do that by doing something different. That means not using up our intensity for a meaningless 4th goal against a team we had well beaten anyway.

Also, it's worth noting in the PL era, we had never been as consistent until Jol's first full season when we came 5th, and I don't think we won a game that year by more than 2 goals, and went out of both cups early. We had Carrick in there controlling the tempo and we played an intelligent game. The fact that post Carrick we went gung-ho sometimes suggests Jol didn't really plan for us to be consistent that way and probably lucked out with having someone of Carrick's class on the pitch doing that for him, but at the same time it showed that it works. Next season we smashed a few teams but were way more inconsistent.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

It doesn't become winning, it becomes winning once in a while then going 5 games only scoring one goal (a pen), losing to dross like west ham by a significant margin, getting battered 6-0 by a very good team and boring the pants off the supporters who are accused of not singing as they watch uneventful, mind numbing, uninspired football unfold.
This is unsustainable and will result in more change.

You simply cannot have watched the game yesterday.

 

[Lilywhite]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

It is very rare we will come out and beat a side 3 or 4 nil. If we want to punch above our weight, there is simply no need to do that.

Liverpool last night, when they were 4 goals up against Norwich, were still pressing to all hell and trying to get another goal at the end of the match. Many people would probably think 'great' but I do not believe they will keep that intensity up and get results over a season doing it. Brendan Rodgers strikes me as a Wenger type 'idealist' and his giddy 'I loved watching my team play tonight' response in his post-match remarks suggested he wasn't giving much mind to the rest of the season. But there's been a few times during his time at Liverpool where they've absolutely smashed teams, Rodgers has talked about how a return to the CL is not far off and they've then been completely underwhelming in the next game.

City will tear teams apart and still go on to compete for the league because they have the squad to do it. Liverpool don't really have that luxury and I firmly believe they will get found out in the next few months. Us, we kind of have the squad, but we need to get to a place of consistency we have never really attained before and we will do that by doing something different. That means not using up our intensity for a meaningless 4th goal against a team we had well beaten anyway.

Also, it's worth noting in the PL era, we had never been as consistent until Jol's first full season when we came 5th, and I don't think we won a game that year by more than 2 goals, and went out of both cups early. We had Carrick in there controlling the tempo and we played an intelligent game. The fact that post Carrick we went gung-ho sometimes suggests Jol didn't really plan for us to be consistent that way and probably lucked out with having someone of Carrick's class on the pitch doing that for him, but at the same time it showed that it works. Next season we smashed a few teams but were way more inconsistent.

Liverpool aren't in Europe this season so can afford to press in games they are winning. The thing is, so can teams who are in Europe with good squads.

We spent £100m this summer FFS, and instead of going out and signing two or three world class players we settled for making the squad deeper by bringing in players who are of a similar quality to our current ones. Why do that if we are just going to play a boring, slow style of play all season? We could rotate our team after a game where we press the opponent in to submission Emirates Marketing Project/Liverpool/Arsenal esque and then do it again with five or six changes made. Otherwise I just do not see the point of having good depth if we are just going to play within ourselves all the ****ing time.

Sorry if this comes across as an overreaction but I'm just sick and tired of seeing my team who have served up lots of entertainment over the years now playing turgid football while others are playing 10x better football and show little sign of slipping up bar the odd blemish. I really think you have gone in to over-defensive mode on AVB mate. It's too risky a game for us to be playing this style of football on purpose to conserve ourselves. Teams above us have shown you can play good football and still win matches. We have played bad football and stumbled over the line in most of our wins via a combination of wonder strikes and penalties. This isn't sustainable any more so than the top teams playing good football. We should just start attempting to play the Tottenham way again and see where it takes us. My prediction is we would look a lot better for it and get at least equally as good results as we have so far.

 

[stinkfoot]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Papering over the cracks is winning when your average performance is terrible and one moment of brilliance turns the draw into a win.
"Just winning" for me is when the team turn up and scrape a win due to lack of desire/injuries/fatigue.

The difference some see is that we have yet to see a Spurs side come out and tear an opponent apart 3-0, 4-0. Just winning for me is a team that can turn it on when they like but don't from game to game because of any of the aforementionned factors. Kinda like how the gooners/City at the moment can on their day pull teams apart but on their off day scrape a 1-0. Our average at the moment is slow plodding with little incision (the cracks if you will). Their average is free flowing football.

But for Krul it would have been Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

We spent £100m this summer FFS, and instead of going out and signing two or three world class players we settled for making the squad deeper by bringing in players who are of a similar quality to our current ones.

How many world class players were available in the summer that would have joined us?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Liverpool aren't in Europe this season so can afford to press in games they are winning. The thing is, so can teams who are in Europe with good squads.

We spent £100m this summer FFS, and instead of going out and signing two or three world class players we settled for making the squad deeper by bringing in players who are of a similar quality to our current ones. Why do that if we are just going to play a boring, slow style of play all season? We could rotate our team after a game where we press the opponent in to submission Emirates Marketing Project/Liverpool/Arsenal esque and then do it again with five or six changes made. Otherwise I just do not see the point of having good depth if we are just going to play within ourselves all the ****ing time.

Sorry if this comes across as an overreaction but I'm just sick and tired of seeing my team who have served up lots of entertainment over the years now playing turgid football while others are playing 10x better football and show little sign of slipping up bar the odd blemish. I really think you have gone in to over-defensive mode on AVB mate. It's too risky a game for us to be playing this style of football on purpose to conserve ourselves. Teams above us have shown you can play good football and still win matches. We have played bad football and stumbled over the line in most of our wins via a combination of wonder strikes and penalties. This isn't sustainable any more so than the top teams playing good football. We should just start attempting to play the Tottenham way again and see where it takes us. My prediction is we would look a lot better for it and get at least equally as good results as we have so far.

I don't think we have stumbled over the line in the majority of matches we have won. Palace, Swansea, Norwich, Cardiff, Villa (x2) were all fully deserved wins, and Fulham was a performance where we created good chances and got in behind them. Everton was a solid performance at a team who have just gone to OT and won but we didn't create much. Man United was a good performance where we deserved the win. Saudi Sportswashing Machine was unlucky. City and West Ham were awful. It's not 'stumbling through every game' at all. And playing this way is no more a risk than it is going gung ho every game. How did that work out for Liverpool at Hull?

The Tottenham way took us to one of the most embarrassing collapses I have ever witnessed as a Spurs fan. To be potentially 13 points clear of Arsenal to not even playing in the CL was an absolute gross miss-use of the talent we had in our squad that year. And to be clear, we got ourselves knocked out of the Europa in the group stages so should have had the entire second half of the season to keep players fresh during the week. Yet that was when we hit our worst form. So I wouldn't be too sure about Liverpool yet. The effects of a long season will tell on them, I'm pretty confident of that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

If we keep idealising this 'Tottenham Way' while not having the squad that clearly without question deserves to be a title challenger...we will never be a title challenger. We need to earn the right to use the Tottenham Way again - I don't think we will ever get to where we want to be if we think that will take us there, and help us compete above and beyond our normal level. We need to be more intelligent.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

If we keep idealising this 'Tottenham Way' while not having the squad that clearly without question deserves to be a title challenger...we will never be a title challenger. We need to earn the right to use the Tottenham Way again - I don't think we will ever get to where we want to be if we think that will take us there, and help us compete above and beyond our normal level. We need to be more intelligent.

Yeah I agree with that. I would however like to see us score more goals if only for the sake of goal difference. Ok some may argue it rarely proves to be decisive, but we all saw how the title was decided because of it two seasons ago. How crushing would it be to miss out on the top 4 because of goal difference? I just don't think you should leave it to chance. You only get 3 points for winning 1-0 as well as 8-0, but big wins can do wonders for confidence.

 

[Cochise]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

When you come up against a team defending as poorly as Norwich you know it's a chance to up your goal difference. Look at the table atm, the space between the top teams is tiny and who's to say it won't come down to goal difference. Last year we ended on +20 GD and still would've missed out on CL football even if we had finished on equal points with Chelsea and Arsenal. This year i'll be suprised if we hit +20 going by our current performances.

PS: At the moment the top four all have +13GD or better.

PPS: I'm on the fence re AVB as I think he needs time to bed in the foreign imports and get them on the same wavelength. That said we look shocking with our off the ball movement. It's sad seeing our centre halves standing with the ball looking for an option and none appearing. It should all be like a chain reaction with one player moving and the next two moving to offer the next option etc. I have yet to see much of that in our play

 

[lurker of old]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think a lot of the disappointment with AVB's style is that we were spoiled for a year or two under HR. Glorious football with VDV, Modric and then the emergence of Bale as a superstar...for a while we really became a club with swagger and style again....the old Tottenham seemed reborn.
But no trophies under HR, no legacy...As for papering over the cracks...that was last season maybe, with Gareth Bale as the decorator in chief. But this season feels like a rebuild, and we all have to accept that rebuilding the team will take time. Without matchwinners like VDV, and with AVB's caution, winning ugly may be as good as it gets till the attacking players start to gel. So - to preach a little - let's be thankful for each and every win, and not compare this team with the superstars of a couple of years ago.

 

[spasm]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think a lot of the disappointment with AVB's style is that we were spoiled for a year or two under HR. Glorious football with VDV, Modric and then the emergence of Bale as a superstar...for a while we really became a club with swagger and style again....the old Tottenham seemed reborn.
But no trophies under HR, no legacy...As for papering over the cracks...that was last season maybe, with Gareth Bale as the decorator in chief. But this season feels like a rebuild, and we all have to accept that rebuilding the team will take time. Without matchwinners like VDV, and with AVB's caution, winning ugly may be as good as it gets till the attacking players start to gel. So - to preach a little - let's be thankful for each and every win, and not compare this team with the superstars of a couple of years ago.

superb post. =D>

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

The hate for Dawson on here is appalling....well said!

I certainly dont hate dawson buddy...read my post carefully....

I just feel his defensive positioning isnt top level and his distribution from the back is frustrating.

Love the guy for what he has given to the shirt but just feel we can do better with other players.

You wont ever hear me calling him schmidt but for a top level team fighting for trophies he doesnt make the grade.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

sorry dude, i dont agree. i understand where you are coming from but i cant help feel its a flavour of the month syndrome....fancy guy from spain with a sexy name is always better than the north london chap that occasionally cruises through edmonton or bounds green.

right now its clear that all three are talented and all three on their day are strikers worthy of the best teams...but we're going to throw two to the scrap heap ...just because they are familiar IMO. I heard the same thing with townsend this summer...needless to say those that said that have no clue on football and dont know what they are talking about...didnt even consider him a contributing squad player even after they saw what he was capable of at qpr.....

can i say that i think you are unfair to dawson....can you name me ONE, just ONE , Centre back of dawsons ilk/type that can deal with fast, pacey, good moving , and skillful players?

Just one CB is all i am asking for. this is the one guy thats ever present in tottenham and has been a rock through out our years when we turned the tides defensively

i just dont get how we throw him on the scrap heap just because he , much like any other CB of dawsons style, might struggle again quicker more skillfull players.

AVB is fine for playing him, he gets pts for that IMO

no need to apologise for disagreeing....debates and opinions is what this place is all about.

If you check out the questions thread from the Saudi Sportswashing Machine fan before this season started I tipped Dawson to be our most disapointing player this season.......I can assure you its not flavour of the month syndrome I have long expressed my belief that I consider him to be a weak link in our team and totally unsuitable for a high line pressing team.

Okay maybe Soldado does have a sexy name ill give you that but I am not swayed by how sweetly it rolls of the tongue.......for better or for worse we have layed out mega bucks for Roberto so I guess the onus is on us to make it work with him.

Again read the Townsend thread where I have said what a talent he is where others were saying he was doo doo......Ade and defoe are not similar in physique or cf style but their body language on the pitch is the same for me......hiding behind defenders.....not contributing to the team.....expecting things to happen be given to them rather than having the nous to change a game themselves which the top level strikers achieve.

You can say im unfair regarding Dawson.......maybe your right..... of course many cbs of his ilk struggle against fast skillfull players but my main point was quick movement.....akin to what city did to us........the following defenders may be as slow on the turn as Dawson or posses similar pace....but its their positioning which is miles ahead of Dawsons which is why Dawson frequently looks like he's having his pants down....... John Terry, Per Metersacker, S Distin, P Jagielka M, Skrtel, N Vidic....you asked for one defender so apologies but I would absolutley have all of them ahead of Dawson....and the worry is they all play for our main challengers for top finish.

I would not confine Dawson to the scrapheap but he wouldnt be my first choice if I was AVB - its verts for me and then either Kabs or Vlad.

as for Defoe and Ade yes they should be canned (and I will hold my hands high if im proved wrong)
Defoe is a striker who has not moved with the times....the death of 4-4-2 started the decline of Defoe
Ade is just a very talented individual who has a rotten attitude......he is to football what Audley Harrison was to boxing....all the tools in abundance with the metality sadly lacking.

time to move on with new strikers but thats just my opinion.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

no need to apologise for disagreeing....debates and opinions is what this place is all about.

you say this but then i get accused of being hostile, people complain and it tallies up... i cant guage anymore whats considered hostile and offensive...and i probably wont get a warning before i am banned so best to play it safe

but either way your post appeared to have covered most parts but i disagree with quite a few of the points, not least of which are you examples of CB v skillful players,...jagielka is not in dawson's mould / CB type....terry however is and he is diabolical against speedy quick and skillful players.

the grass is always greener etc, i feel thats why you have this false idea that terry and vidic are good versus fast skillful people...that and the possibility that you dont watch chelsea as much a you do us

 

[africanspurs]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I certainly dont hate dawson buddy...read my post carefully....

I just feel his defensive positioning isnt top level and his distribution from the back is frustrating.

Love the guy for what he has given to the shirt but just feel we can do better with other players.

You wont ever hear me calling him schmidt but for a top level team fighting for trophies he doesnt make the grade.

top level team fighting for trophies?

where did you get that idea about us?

based on what exactly? cause history and form over the past 20 years points to the fact that he is exactly on our level...if YOU want to get to the top, as in go there from where we actually are, then maybe along with the strong defense that Dawson has been a part of for like 5 to 7 years....you might think about improving other aspects of the team first? i dont know , like , maybe the 26 million pound ready made striker that doesnt seem to get nearly as involved as the top teams strikers do

just a suggestion. the unit that has been doing well for us over so many years is the one you want to change. but you are semi okay with the quality of the players involved in the biggest proportions of a football match (wide men, playmakers, midfelders, "No 10s", etc)

why not change the midfield and get some proper serious world class footballers first?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think it's interesting that in the 6 seasons they've had together at the club, under 4 different managers, Dawson has really always been preferred over Kaboul.

I think whichever more 'agricultural' CB we go for will always get a bit of stick, but the thought of a Verts-Chirches partnership is pretty scary. Having a tough, powerful, non-nonsense CB is essential, and not just for playing against forwards like Carroll/Lukaku/Benteke.

 

[THFC6061]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

 

[tynesidespur]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

you say this but then i get accused of being hostile, people complain and it tallies up... i cant guage anymore whats considered hostile and offensive...and i probably wont get a warning before i am banned so best to play it safe

but either way your post appeared to have covered most parts but i disagree with quite a few of the points, not least of which are you examples of CB v skillful players,...jagielka is not in dawson's mould / CB type....terry however is and he is diabolical against speedy quick and skillful players.

the grass is always greener etc, i feel thats why you have this false idea that terry and vidic are good versus fast skillful people...that and the possibility that you dont watch chelsea as much a you do us

Pleased to see someone sticking up for Dawson. The level of unjustified criticism on here and on twitter is, frankly, unbelievable.
Keeps clean sheets in 6 of 11 games, then we concede 6 up at Emirates Marketing Project where Kaboul starts his first match for 18 months and its all Dawson's fault and he should be shipped out???
For what its worth I think he has improved massively as a footballer - able to bring it down on his chest and chooses when to pass into a congested midfield, when to play square and when to hit the long diagonal.
John Terry looks great for Chelsea because he's well protected but when he played for England he looked the same as Dawson at that level, clumsy and slow.
Distin has pace so not the same type as Daws.
Martin Skrtel is a bit of a laughing stock at times - 2 own goals in a match? How long would he last at Spurs?!

Also all the other centre-halves seem to get a free pass?
Verthongen consistently makes mistakes when playing a centre-half, positionally, over playing on the ball or just lack of concentration. But because he's a tidy footballer = free pass.
Chiriches is another fabulous footballer on the ball but he has a tendency to make the odd mistake dwelling on the ball when he should be clearing it etc etc. He also lacks pace but seems to have good positional sense to get him out of trouble. Again NOT perfect.
Kaboul seems to get a free pass because as with most players when out injured their perceived ability increases three-fold. Its either that or the fact that his raw physique/attributes outstrips Dawson's by some way. Performances on the pitch suggest otherwise to me.

 

[Yossarian]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I certainly dont hate dawson buddy...read my post carefully....

I just feel his defensive positioning isnt top level and his distribution from the back is frustrating.

Love the guy for what he has given to the shirt but just feel we can do better with other players.

You wont ever hear me calling him schmidt but for a top level team fighting for trophies he doesnt make the grade.

Thanks. My comment wasn't aimed exclusively at you! Indeed your views are less extreme than most who criticise Dawson.

I agree that he is far from perfect, but AVB clearly values him, as he changed his mind about shipping him out and confirmed him as Captain.

For me, there is no player more committed to the club than Dawson.