Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

But this is exactly where the debate is.

To most people watching us passing it around unable to get the ball out of our own half for two games in a row is not what we want.
But according to you and the AVB book this is 'the plan'.
In that game the central two didn't want the ball from the defence. Villa (and West Ham before it) were happy to let us have the ball in our own half knowing we were predictability going to play it down the flanks and back to the defence again. That's why we keep the possession we do.

People are waiting for us to come good when everything gels but AVB's gameplan is so defensive that he to writes the first half in games to save energy! Should people only pay to watch the second half?

Here's a question: do you accept there are downsides to being a team that storms out of the traps in a first half? And if you do, why do you prefer those downsides as opposed to the ones that come from being patient?

Also, I feel people are getting spoilt a bit by the fact we are keeping the ball so well. The alternative could be that we are conceding lots of chances and goals, which isn't really happening. That would be REALLY bad, but if the main concern is we are a bit slow right now in what is if not a period of transition, certainly a period of bedding in lots of new players, is it really enough to warrant a manager sacking? Or even ripping up our plans and trying something else?

It leads me back to my first question - if you accept all approaches in football have downsides (which surely you must) then why should be prefer the downsides that come with the approach you advocate as opposed to the ones we have currently?

 

[milo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

But its how most teams play. They are set up be more conservative and defensive away. They are let off the leash at home and have a go.
We seem always to be in away mode.

I'm not sure that most teams would do that whilst bedding in a new front line. I agree that we should be aiming for having a number of different approaches that we can adopt in the longer term though.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

no it's not ironic or hypocritical at all. AVB hasn't even been here 1.5 seasons yet which isn't a length of time some people (Milo? myself? Brainelcipse? or whoever else - maybe you could do us the decency of naming some posters btw rather than hiding behind generalizations) believe that it's fair to draw conclusions on his time here - with Redknapp it was different - was here over twice as long and had a settled team. not to mention it was a TOTALLY different set of circumstances you'r clutching at straws trying to prove this point im afraid.


come back to me in 2 and quarter seasons time and see if Im still 'making excuses' for AVB - maybe then you might have valid reason to label us as hypocritical because you sure as hell don't now.

Do you know something, you and me rarely agree on anything (we'd probably disagree on what shape the Earth is) but I always liked your posts. You need to lighten up.

Since you constantly insist that posters have to name names, Scara was one of Arry's biggest critics, but now we've got a different manager, ****ging him off/criticising him is no longer the done thing.

Not clutching at straws at all, after only his second full season in charge people had had enough and finishing below a team that had spent about five times what we had spent was unacceptable. He had a settled team you are correct, but he also never got over £100m to spend in one window so it's swings and roundabouts really. Not saying this applies to you, but you know as well as I do that many posters didn't like him for personal reasons and never truly wanted him because of it.

I stand by my original point, people support the people they like, that doesn't just apply to the people staunchly defending AVB so please don't take that personally. It would be ideal if EVERY Spurs fan supported the manager, no matter who it is or no matter how they feel about said manager's managerial ability or whether they like or dislike them as a person. Now I don't hide the fact that I'm not totally convinced by AVB, but I would gobsmacked if we sacked him any time before Xmas regardless of the results and he has my full support until the end of this season at the earliest. I would say possibly next season as well. Doesn't mean we can't question some of his decisions.

If you want to continue this by PM then that's fine by me.

 

[onlyme]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Molehills into mountains.

 

[milo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Since you constantly insist that posters have to name names, Scara was one of Arry's biggest critics, but now we've got a different manager, ****ging him off/criticising him is no longer the done thing.

I think that you are making a big mistake thinking that Scara's views are those of the board. Scara is a passionate believer in free speech, to the point where he is putting his hand in his pocket to provide a platform to people who frequently **** him off. I would not do that and I doubt that you would either.

People are welcome to hold and express any view on AVB on this board. All we ask is that you do so with wit and verve, show some respect to your fellow posters, acknowledge when someone makes a good point and try to back up your arguments.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think that is a very divisive attitude. I wonder whether you feel the same in real life or whether you are carrying over arguments from previous seasons and feel that you have a point to prove to some posters.

at this moment in time in my life yes i do. i dont see why people with double standards shouldnt be held to task / accountable for things they've said or done. Otherwise everyone would be spouting **** and still look like they know what they are talking about

 

[africanspurs]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Think he was taking the ****.

As I've said a number of times before when opinions are as polarised as they are, the truth lies usually lies somewhere between the two sides. AVB has had plenty of time to stamp his style on the side however I will defend him in saying this high turnover of players means we kind of have hit the reset button a little. Not AVB necessarily but the club as a whole. In a little over a year and a half we've gone from Modric, VdV, King, Bale, etc to 7 new stars this season not to mention Sig, Dembele, Vertonghen, Lloris.

I'll be honest, I don't really care how we judge AVB necessarily. I'm more interested in our state as a club and where we are. If we forget about AVB for a second and look at the club, the squad, we can see an awful lot of change.

There are cultural significances to take into account. Both of the club, and the individual players. Somehow we need to align the two, they need to learn about the club, the history, the fans, the ambitions. The club needs to learn about the players and who they are and how they can take the club forward.

Sometimes it clicks, and other times it will take some time. I find it no mean feat for AVB to have overseen the club to remain as successful as we've been in recent history whilst under going such a large change. Of course Bale takes a huge slice of that credit. But we were not a one man team regardless of what people said.

I've always said there would be some initial pain whilst these things take shape. It's as big a radical change as when Arnesen first came on board

you said forget about AVB then proceed to bring him in and throw all sorts of positive vibe.

You cant help yourself with the happiness and lillywhite glasses , i get that, but then i dont know how to respond to this. Is this an AVB post or an abstract one about how many changes we have had literally?

good post though,

dont agree on some of the leniency cause that would mean we should never aim to significantly improve our squad....even if most of the people playing in the first team were here last year when we were being saved by one man

dammit, see, i cant help myself either

i dont know how to address the post, is this a club thing or an AVB thing?

 

[Notmegov]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

for some reason this thread makes me think of this.



[video=youtube;geHLdg_VNww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geHLdg_VNww[/video]

 

[Rossi22]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

haha you cant just 'reset' progress. Had he taken over mid way through a season then fine but AVB didnt. He took over at the start of summer of last season, so he should be judged from last summer. If that was the case why was he getting plaudits last summer? You (royal you) cant just determine how he has done when you feel like it. haha. So funny.

I think you need to reinstall your sarcasm detector

 

[NWND]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Look, credit where it's due. AVB isn't all bad. Oh no, it would be pointless of me to pretend otherwise. We obviously haven't had a Ramos "2 points from 8 games" moment. At least not yet. I do worry that it may be coming and all is not right in the camp, which is mainly some recent quotes from the squad in the press and some body-language and mannerisms i've seen in some recent games. A bit of the players looking at each other, shrugging their shoulders if a pass goes a stray (instead of busting a gut to retrieve the situation) a bit of hands on hips looking around when things are going wrong etc

AVB has made us solid and 5th place was a decent finish given everything last season with a record points total.

However...

My point isn't necessarily whether AVB can or can't be successful. I don't actually think we can achieve our objectives playing the way AVB wants us to play, but then let's say we do...I just am not interested in any success gained this way.

You know what, George Graham was the last but Ramos to win us silverware, I was at that cup-final. It was one of the worst games of football i've ever seen. Leicester were a defensive team themselves and we set up to spoil whatever game they had.

From Neilsen's goal onwards into the celebrations were amazing. What a day out, I loved it, until the next time I had to watch Spurs play in the league and I realised that I still hated the team. Ginola made us watchable on his own, just like Bale did last season, but when Ginola was sold...our main threat and creativity was lost and we became a very poor, functional unit.

I see a lot of comparisions between that team and this.

We have a first season using another person's squad and making it very hard to beat, but with an individual star providing a lot of goal and creative threat, the team looked good and won a trophy. Everything appeared rosy.

However, Ginola was then sold (as was Bale - the difference is that George binned Ginola off as he didn't like him but AVB didn't have a choice with Bale) and then the real limitations of the team's personnel and tactics employed by the manager are exposed.

People said of that Ginola team that we were a quality striker away from competing as Ginola's service going on to a quality striker would make us challengers. We bought Rebrov (soldado) that summer who arrived with a great goalscoring reputation, but we didn't supply the service he needed without ginola and in a very defensive, hard-working unit, he was isolated and his form and confidence soon dissapeared after a promising start.

I see so many parralels, I feel the loss of Bale has exposed the lack of ambition and forward thinking in the tactics used (as well as the unbalanced nature of the personnel within the squad). The personnel that AVB favours are all very bland, big solid blokes with little star/off-the-cuff quality. While AVB is quick to praise Lamela in public, so was Graham quick to praise Ginola. THat didn't stop him dis-trusting him in his team unit. Why is Lamela not being played? He seems to offer a lot of what we're missing.

I see a lot of the Rebrov situation developing with Soldado - sooner or later, he is so starved of service and support that he will stop believing in himself as a pro and his form and ability as a player will decline.

Regardless of whether AVB is successful, gets us top-4, gest us up there points-wise with the top teams and wins us trophies, where are we going with all this? Is this Spurs, do we give up on our identity as a club just to get success? What made me fall in love with the club in the first place was this complete unwillingness to accept mediocrity of play even under the banner of success. It was beter to fail trying to reach perfection, rather than semi-succeed aiming lower. The whole glory-glory thing.

I feel at the moment we aren't going out to beat the other lot and we ARE waiting for them to die of boredom.

Where is AVB taking us? I'm not really interested, as I don't want to go there whatever the outcome.

Unfortunately, like Graham, I feel AVB's tactical mindset and outlook can only be successful in a limited environment (such as pre-sky era Premiership or Portuguese league).

I honestly feel we deserve better than this and wherever and whatever AVB is taking us/doing with us, just isn't compatible with what Spurs are all about.

So why not just accept this, cut our losses and move on?

 

[milo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I don't know where to start.

 

[mudshark]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

If I had to put my finger on one thing I think most often negatively impacts our ability to create clear-cut chances (hence all the pot-shots from outside the box, blocked shots, etc.) it'd have to be hesitation by the player on the ball at those critical moments. I can understand why some might point to overcoaching as a possible explanation, but contending that, there does also have to be the implicit hope it's a natural phase that just needs a bit of patience to get through, before we start to see the benefits. That's my hope, anyhow.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

If I had to put my finger on one thing I think most often negatively impacts our ability to create clear-cut chances (hence all the pot-shots from outside the box, blocked shots, etc.) it'd have to be hesitation by the player on the ball at those critical moments. I can understand why some might point to overcoaching as a possible explanation, but contending that, there does also have to be the implicit hope it's a natural phase that just needs a bit of patience to get through, before we start to see the benefits. That's my hope, anyhow.

The idea is that when you've been through the same situations a number of times you simply react, rather than consider what you're supposed to do.

What AVB did last season was device a way for us to get the most out of the players we had. There was no Modric, an out of form Ade, a Defoe whose scoring streak luckily for us happened to come at the start of the season, a Dempsey without a proper pre season. It's highly likely that without Bale's goals we'd have ended up in 7th or 8th place, but that's as good as that squad was with so few match winners of any real quality. There wasn't any room for AVB to come in and have a proper transitional season, he had to make us competitive straight away.

Some of the basics carries over to this season, like the way we defend, but we've put together a whole new attacking line up and IMO we have yet to see us play the way AVB truly wants. Again we have to be competitive straight away and with a neverending schedule of games the improvements will come slowly and gradually.

We now have two EL games with no pressure. I hope we either use them to experiment on certain aspects of our game or just play the kids. Or maybe a bit of both. At least we are in a good position to prioritise the league games that follow the EL games, Manchester Utd and Liverpool. Man Utd have a difficult away game to Bayer Leverkusen on Wednesday the week we play them.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

NWND - you're entire posts assumes AVB's vision is to be defensive and that what we are seeing is the ultimate objective. There's many, many things written about him out there that suggest otherwise and to simply ignore it all won't make your point any more valid.

His style of play was markedly different from Mourinho's for example who is more functional, and the Chelsea players didn't like it. He likes attacking full backs, a high line, a sweeper keeper, fluid play. But for some reason people are now suggesting a high line = defensive, which just isn't the case at all. It's about control, not about being defensive. Defensive is Stoke, sitting back with men behind the ball and then lumping it forward with no ability to retain possession. Functional is Mourinho's first Chelsea side. Right now we are functional too, but if you looked into AVB's past and his philosophies even a little then you would see that it isn't what he ultimately wants.

Last season Potchettino was accused by many of sucking away the flair that Adkins allowed Soton to play with and made them too functional. Many criticisms that went his way are going AVB's way now -right up to the fact that they performed better against bigger sides rather than ones that sat back. But he's got them playing well now - because they have gone through that phase of adjustment and it's now working for them. It takes time to learn this style, and when it isn't clicking it can look slow and laboured.

And before you say 'Well if Southampton are now performing a similar style well then why can't we?' I think it would largely be down to the fact that their main attacking players are the same from last year - their big new signing Osvaldo has been the worst - where as our entire attack is basically new and we've lost our best player. Big difference. Let's give it the season and see how we do before suggesting we are settling in for a decade of defensiveness.

 

[ringo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I'm not sure I buy into the high line, high pressing tactics/strategy.

I understand the supposed advantages, but there are also some important potential disadvantages.

You end up starting, developing and attempting to finish your attacks -and playing a large a proportion of the game - compressed into a half to a third of a pitch. And that section of the pitch usually contains nine/ten of the opposing players as well as whoever is attacking. That's a very crowded environment. I think the lack of space tends towards neutralising the advantage of a more skilful team. To the advantage of weaker teams.

The opponents have the whole pitch to play in when they are attacking -which almost has to be in a counter attacking style - and we will rarely be able to get eight/nine people behind the ball. So it is likely that even if the opponents only get a few chances to attack, the attacker/defender ratio will be more favourable for them.

It doesn't tire the opponents out particularly either, as they are chasing down in a small section of the pitch, and that only needs to be really effective in and around their area anyway.

On balance I think we would perform better with a slightly deeper line, not so much high pressing, allowing the other side to have the ball in a large part of their own half. or at least mix it up a little more.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I'm not sure I buy into the high line, high pressing tactics/strategy.

I understand the supposed advantages, but there are also some important potential disadvantages.

You end up starting, developing and attempting to finish your attacks -and playing a large a proportion of the game - compressed into a half to a third of a pitch. And that section of the pitch usually contains nine/ten of the opposing players as well as whoever is attacking. That's a very crowded environment. I think the lack of space tends towards neutralising the advantage of a more skilful team. To the advantage of weaker teams.

The opponents have the whole pitch to play in when they are attacking -which almost has to be in a counter attacking style - and we will rarely be able to get eight/nine people behind the ball. So it is likely that even if the opponents only get a few chances to attack, the attacker/defender ratio will be more favourable for them.

It doesn't tire the opponents out particularly either, as they are chasing down in a small section of the pitch, and that only needs to be really effective in and around their area anyway.

On balance I think we would perform better with a slightly deeper line, not so much high pressing, allowing the other side to have the ball in a large part of their own half. or at least mix it up a little more.

I agree, I also suggested the same a few weeks back here and here.

Just because it works for Barca doesn't mean it will work for Spurs. I can see AVB's thinking behind it though, he's setting us up not to lose by limiting the opposition, this tactic is basically designed towards us nicking 1-0 wins.

 

[milo]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I agree, I also suggested the same a few weeks back here and here.

Just because it works for Barca doesn't mean it will work for Spurs. I can see AVB's thinking behind it though, he's setting us up not to lose by limiting the opposition, this tactic is basically designed towards us nicking 1-0 wins.

What makes you say that. How do other sides who currently use this tactic play? Are they steal a one nil sides? How have AVB's other sides played, does he have form for being defensive?

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

What makes you say that. How do other sides who currently use this tactic play? Are they steal a one nil sides? How have AVB's other sides played, does he have form for being defensive?

Think of the way Spain played for most of the last Euros. Controlling the game but doing nothing with it. We all knew they could turn it on if they wanted to but most of the time they were boring teams to death. They were saving energy in the way BrainOfLevy describes as AVB's plan. Then in the final they went for it and produced a great display.

This it seems is the what AVB wants to do here.

 

[Mumorn]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Think of the way Spain played for most of the last Euros. Controlling the game but doing nothing with it. We all knew they could turn it on if they wanted to but most of the time they were boring teams to death. They were saving energy in the way BrainOfLevy describes as AVB's plan. Then in the final they went for it and produced a great display.

This it seems is the what AVB wants to do here.

one of the best performances i have ever seen at international level.

 

[NWND]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Think of the way Spain played for most of the last Euros. Controlling the game but doing nothing with it. We all knew they could turn it on if they wanted to but most of the time they were boring teams to death. They were saving energy in the way BrainOfLevy describes as AVB's plan. Then in the final they went for it and produced a great display.

This it seems is the what AVB wants to do here.

Oh right, sorry, I didn't realise that watching Spurs play this season was like watch Spain in the last Euros, you know, like watching one of the best international sides ever! Sorry, my bad...

You know, I'm glad you got me out of my senses, as for one minute I thought we were a shambles who made me want to surgically extract my own testicles using a desert spoon and a pair of tweezers, but oh no. Spain, yes, Spain. We're just like them. Yes, yes we are.

I mean watching Inesta and Villa pass around top quality international sides before scoring, not giving their opponents a sniff in the process is just like watching Paulinho pass sideways to Sigurdsson 100 times before we lose the ball eventually after going nowhere and get down by an instant punt over the top of our high line..... ARE YOU GUYS ON LSD????