American politics

[SpurMeUp]

You are putting words in my mouth again mate. We're done here.

You are done. People are still dying daily.

 

[P.D.]

Out of touch like Hulk Hogan, Kid Rock and Tucker Carlson?

And were you impressed by Trump's interviews? It literally didn't matter what he said, he has the best policies / solutions / words, he said so himself...

This does all feel a bit nightmare-ish, how many people there are that are comfortable voting for a convicted felon, sex offender and all round general vile person. If these are the characteristics to be rewarded what kind of example does it set to young people? Be a clam and you'll go far in life. At least it not Boris Johnson and Donald Trump levels of fudgery but it's still an embarrassing day for humanity.

Those 3 wouldn't be considered elitists I guess or people would see them are more relatable, same with Joe Rogan.

No I'm not really impressed with anything Trump does but he did do lots of interviews, Harris stayed away. The whole administration stayed away, I believe Biden has done the least interviews of any president ever for example.

Ultimately they kept telling everyone that the economy was great and inflation was down etc but people don't feel it, I doubt Trump will fix any of that but people felt they'd rather take a chance on something then have more of the same. Parallels to Brexit I guess.

 

[Rorschach]

You are done. People are still dying daily.

Done with you.

 

[DubSpur]

Where are you getting this from? If Trump made such a sweeping statement it would be lambasted. I just mentioned two Ukrainians who are hoping Trump will end the war. I don't think you appreciate the desperation and fatigue that Ukrainian people feel now.

Vance has said that Russia would be allowed to keep the land under their control now, and a promise of Ukraine neutrality in exchange for peace.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

You seem fine with Russian lives lost? I am against war. You seem engaged by it, and support it. If you are unable to see the other side, and to look at ways forward, there is just ongoing war. The whole premise of us using Ukraine as a buffer to Putin is hugely flawed in itself.

I believe that everyone who instigates war should have to send one of their family to the front to fight. If that was the case for you, would you be so shy in suing for peace?

The only trouble with that proposal is these warmongers are psychopaths and wouldn't be concerned with what happens to their families and definitely not anyone else's

 

[Legohamster]

Maybe a few more celebrities would have made the difference.
Perhaps they didn't work hard enough to make sufficient people hate and/or fear Trump.She wasn't cutting

I did not get this, you are struggling to cut through to middle america, I know lets get some smug rich celebs to do a patronising video... that will help

 

[Mikey10]

So we are using Ukrainian lives 'just in case'. We don't know that Putin would keep going and threaten Poland etc.

 

[braineclipse]

Exactly.

Ignore at your peril.

And the left/Democrates did and will continue to do so.

Don't think we agree.

They're talking points, rarely connected to real issues and actual policies of the Democrats. Democrats tried to pass immigration reform, Republicans blocked it. Biden has been far from open border. Yet the narrative/talking point sticks.

Imo the Democrats may as well go way further left, they still wouldn't be as radical as they're being painted as. And would actually stand for real change that may mobilise people.

But, my main point, Democrats are far from perfect. As all political parties, as all people. Trump and the consequences aren't on them. It's on Trump and those who actively supported him.

The narrative was out there that they were weak on immigration and has stuck. They tried to address it with a cross party bill but Trump made sure it was blocked so he could continue with that narrative. Democrats were really poor at changing that narrative.

How they've handled Ukraine and Israel/Palestine has made them look weak too. If Biden had grown a pair, given Ukraine what they needed instead of looking scared of Putin and given Netanyahu a slap by stopping sending weapons until he did what he was told it would've made him and Harris look like proper leaders. Instead it's Trump that is presenting himself as a leader.

They also fudged up on messaging on the economy which was the biggest concern for Trump voters.

I agree they probably could have done more to change the narrative. That's part of the problem, the narrative just sticks and is incredibly difficult to change. Trump, the Republican media machine are really effective at spreading his lies.

Democrats are way less effective at lying.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The battlefield for this election is Social Media...it's 8 years since his last election' win and, in case no one has noticed, the glow of someone's smartphone on their face, is a semi permanent tattoo. Consume consume consume.

Tik Tok (a Chinese company lol) has more reach/consumption/engagement than all the American networks put together.

Rogan has 18m+ subscribers just on Spotify.

Musk owns X ffs!

Trump is performer (perfect for SM) good at soundbites but also a great storyteller (good for SM). Storytelling exists to press ones emotional buttons, it doesn't require facts or cross examination, just to resonate, uplift and 'fudge yeah' make you angry (just like SM).

That is the modern day playground, it doesn't take much to catch the people, to fool them.(Appears quite hard to convince them they've been fooled though) Tell them what they want to here, and tell them every 10secs...so they don't have time to think, analyse and GHod forbid, question.

Politics has got caught up in this theatre, when it should be so much more serious.
But of course, there is a serious side, and that's ALL that Trump is not telling you. Is he on your side? No, he's on his side. Are you dispensable, absolutely.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I doubt anyone on here wants to see more lives lost. But appeasing Putin will just make him bolder. There are ex-Russian and ex-Soviet states that he wants to make part of Russia again. IF he gets away with it in Ukraine there's just going to be another war with one of these countries. Somewhere like Molodova that has a large Russian minority will be accused of oppressing Russians and he'll send in troops there to claim that he is only protecting Russians.
If NATO and Biden had called Putins bluff and given Ukraine what they need to win this would be over already.

A lot of IFs and conjectures, that are not invalid. They are relevant points. But its one-sided. From Russia's perspective it had an effective 'common wealth'. A collection of post-empire nations that it effectively had under its wing. To be ballanced, fair and informed, you need to understand this perspective too, and how nato intervened to move them away from Russia's sphere of influence. And what happened during the breakup of the soviet block where it was agreed that Nato wouldn't move further east after the breakup.

 

[SpurMeUp]

View attachment 17964

You are suggesting Putin is akin to the Nazis?

 

[Jordinho]

Ukraine is slowly losing the war currently. Are you advocating throwing more lives away, to slow down what is occurring now, and to line the pockets of arms companies? There should be a more nuanced way forward than just stopping funding. Shouldn't we aspire to talk? Finding a solution. Ukrainians themselves don't want to throw more innocent lives and destruction of the country. For what? Sovereignty. Or to serve Natos empire-like aims against Putin? Ukraine is run by its own Oligarchs - that should be the fight to transform the country.

Note: I am putting this side of things forward, because the other side of the argument you know. There are complexities, there are other considerations than the dominant western narrative - which is valid too.

Putin won't settle for the land. He wants the Ukrainians gone. They either become Russian or they disappear.

 

[braineclipse]

The battlefield for this election is Social Media...it's 8 years since his last election' win and, in case no one has noticed, the glow of someone's smartphone on their face, is a semi permanent tattoo. Consume consume consume.

Tik Tok (a Chinese company lol) has more reach/consumption/engagement than all the American networks put together.

Rogan has 18m+ subscribers just on Spotify.

Musk owns X ffs!

Trump is performer (perfect for SM) good at soundbites but also a great storyteller (good for SM). Storytelling exists to press ones emotional buttons, it doesn't require facts or cross examination, just to resonate, uplift and 'fudge yeah' make you angry (just like SM).

That is the modern day playground, it doesn't take much to catch the people, to fool them.(Appears quite hard to convince them they've been fooled though) Tell them what they want to here, and tell them every 10secs...so they don't have time to think, analyse and GHod forbid, question.

Politics has got caught up in this theatre, when it should be so much more serious.
But of course, there is a serious side, and that's ALL that Trump is not telling you. Is he on your side? No, he's on his side. Are you dispensable, absolutely.

Very good post and fully agreed.

Serious, fact based arguments, questioning and scepticism seems at a distinct disadvantage in this media environment.

Further the Democrats being a "big tent" party struggle to put forward a narrative/story and soundbites that are convincing and mobilising to people spanning their spectrum.

 

[Grays_1890]

Where are you getting this from? If Trump made such a sweeping statement it would be lambasted. I just mentioned two Ukrainians who are hoping Trump will end the war. I don't think you appreciate the desperation and fatigue that Ukrainian people feel now.


You're suggesting we should not talk and try to find a peaceful solution?


We were looking at Trumps approach vs the current Democrat approach. The auto "Trump is a loon" narrative is more important to liberal observers than people's lives and the stark reality - that is my point.

I was asking your solution not advocating anything????

 

[Gutter Boy]

No easy feat. But if Trump does manage to end the war wouldn't that be something to celebrate? The banal way so-called liberals happily throw (young) human life into the meat grinder from afar is quite disgusting. I am no Trump supporter, but the biases and polarised nature of people's positions on both sides is clear, and potentially damaging. Why shouldn't Trump be celebrated if he somehow manages to end the war?

I don't think he will. But doing the same thing as now does not seem like the answer does it?

Said people to Hitler about Czechoslavakia

 

[SpurMeUp]

Said people to Hitler about Czechoslavakia

You believe Putin to be akin to Hitler?

 

[DubSpur]

A lot of IFs and conjectures, that are not invalid. They are relevant points. But its one-sided. From Russia's perspective it had an effective 'common wealth'. A collection of post-empire nations that it effectively had under its wing. To be ballanced, fair and informed, you need to understand this perspective too, and how nato intervened to move them away from Russia's sphere of influence. And what happened during the breakup of the soviet block where it was agreed that Nato wouldn't move further east after the breakup.

It's not for Putin/Russia or US to decide the faith of Ukraine, that's for the people of Ukraine to do. If they want to move closer to the rest of Europe they should be free to do so.

 

[Grays_1890]

You believe Putin to be akin to Hitler?

In a modern world yep, same ideals

 

[Robspur12]

This is mainly on the Democrats. For weeks all the polls were saying that 1) economy
2) immigration were the concerns of the electorate with the war in Gaza being a major negative against the Dems. Yet not heard anything from them to counter these issues. Instead they focused on bringing in the stars to endorse them. Stars who don't really speak to people suffering because of the cost of living going up.

Surely it's politics 101 to attack your opponent but also to lay out some policies of your own at least to address concerns of the voters!

 

[SpurMeUp]

No one likes loss of life, especially those close to them.
Sometimes humanity has to double down for the sake of just that....humanity.

My issue is people doing it from afar. Very easy to commit another nation to 'the cause' whilst suffering very little. Whilst US arms companies and US gas exports thrive. With scant regard for what the people in Ukraine actually want. The idea that "every Ukrainian" wants war is totally incorrect too. These are complex issues and it is clear that people here do not even have a base level comprehension. For example, the east of Ukraine was largely pro-Russia. This changed and developed after the invasion and the conduct of Russia. But to make such sweeping statements really shows our biases. And to suggest that Trump suing for peace is a bad thing, just because he is Trump, is crazy. More crazy than he is! Of course we should be seeking peace. Why are we debating otherwise?

At Munich, Chamberlain got an international agreement that Hitler should have the Sudetenland in exchange for Germany making no further demands for land in Europe. Chamberlain said it was 'Peace for our time'. Hitler said he had 'No more territorial demands to make in Europe

So we should not pursue peace because of this one event in history that has its own unique truth and detail? There are lessons to be learned from history and this is certainly pertinent too, but a. to suggest this is the same as Hitler does not equate to me, and b. would you rule out pursuing peace because of this one analogous event? Nato's collective intelligence systems are worlds away from where they were 100 years ago. We know everything about Russia. We know when they wanted to invade, where they are getting their troops from etc etc etc. The notion that we could not pursue peace and also be ready for war, is flawed too.

My simple point was: as 'liberals' we lambast Trump for seeking a peaceful solution; can you acknowledge the irony?