American politics

[scaramanga]

Yeah right Labour voters lost their jobs and homes in droves under Attlee, Wilson, Blair and Browne. I think it safe to say this is more hyperbole on your part.

Everyone lost out under them - we're still paying the price for Blair/Brown's fiscal diarrhoea now.

As per usual, the Conservatives have to wipe up their mess and get the economy stable before people forget how screwed up everything was and vote some fudgewit leftie in again.

 

[milo]

I don't think the first one fits the pattern. Cameron's government (the one people voted for) was quite centrist socially.

It's May that doesn't understand modern Conservatism. She was a terrible choice for leader - I said that months ago and I stand by it now.

She's the reason I changed the habit of and lifetime and didn't vote Conservative at the last election.

The split in country is between social conservative and liberals. Both parties are split on this, in the Tories it is between rural and metropolitan conservatives. In Labour it is also metropolitan but verses the old industrial heartlands. Both Brexit and Trump were the result of a coalition of rural/industrial social conservatives. I disagree with it but I can see the sense in May trying to appeal to this group.

 

[Raziel]

That's been the case for centuries.

The reality is that young lefties get jobs, mortgages, children etc. and become small c conservatives.

It's easy to vote for people like Corbyn and Sanders when you've got nothing to lose.

Yes, but the difference (at least in US) is this is not just a variation on economic policy.

- I get the conservative pretense at lowering taxes, smaller government, enable business, etc. And based on that and my position in life, I should be conservative.
- I however cannot embrace ignorance (the "I'm not a scientist but I will now proceed to discount anything science has already accepted as fact"), I cannot support a system that supports incarceration and killing of minorities at alarmingly disproportionate rates, the continued believe that one religion specifically should be deeply entwined in our government/schooling system or that people with different genders or sexual orientation should be discriminated against.

Also, lets be clear Scara, the democratic government in the US left the economy is a much better place than the last conservative donkey left it .. despite following the conservative lead and wasting trillions in 7 wars.

 

[milo]

Well in both the cases we will have to wait and see, unless you let everyone get a look at that crystal ball you must have to say what you have with so much certainty.

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Trump is more establishment than Obama. May as much as Cameron. Farage is a public school educated, city boy turned professional politician. These are not anti-establishment figures and they have no more interest in the working man than the people they are replacing.

 

[scaramanga]

Yes, but the difference (at least in US) is this is not just a variation on economic policy.

- I get the conservative pretense at lowering taxes, smaller government, enable business, etc. And based on that and my position in life, I should be conservative.
- I however cannot embrace ignorance (the "I'm not a scientist but I will now proceed to discount anything science has already accepted as fact"), I cannot support a system that supports incarceration and killing of minorities at alarmingly disproportionate rates, the continued believe that one religion specifically should be deeply entwined in our government/schooling system or that people with different genders or sexual orientation should be discriminated against.

Also, lets be clear Scara, the democratic government in the US left the economy is a much better place than the last conservative donkey left it .. despite following the conservative lead and wasting trillions in 7 wars.

I don't need convincing on that, I'm fairly socially centrist (possibly a little to the left I terms of freedom of choice). It's the economic side of the argument where I lean to the right.

If it weren't for the likes of Clinton I'd align myself fairly closely with the Democrats in the US - I just really dislike her, not the party or its politics.

 

[parklane1]

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Trump is more establishment than Obama. May as much as Cameron. Farage is a public school educated, city boy turned professional politician. These are not anti-establishment figures and they have no more interest in the working man than the people they are replacing.

No i do understand what you are saying, the vote in both has gone the way it has because folks are fed up with the status quo. Now they think they have been offered a change ( i get your point about you thinking those who have offered a change are no different) but the people are hoping that at long last there is chance to change that status quo.

Now you and others MAY think that they are racists, rednecks or other slurs, and foolish to believe that things will really change, however those who voted the way they have think they have no other choice left to them but to try in the hope that things will change for them.

Do you deny them that hope?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

What about where fears are misplaced? Or where you have a media that whips up fear of immigration?

I agree mate and I never said it would be easy. It will very hard. Look at how the trash Murdoch press whip up anti migrant hysteria. This acts as a smokescreen to hide the real culprits.

 

[DTA]

No i do understand what you are saying, the vote in both has gone the way it has because folks are fed up with the status quo. Now they think they have been offered a change ( i get your point about you thinking those who have offered a change are no different) but the people are hoping that at long last there is chance to change that status quo.

Now you and others MAY think that they are racists, rednecks or other slurs, and foolish to believe that things will really change, however those who voted the way they have think they have no other choice left to them but to try in the hope that things will change for them.

Do you deny them that hope?

Wouldn't that hope be better served voting for Sanders or Corbyn who would actually try an deliver a fairer society?

 

[milo]

No i do understand what you are saying, the vote in both has gone the way it has because folks are fed up with the status quo. Now they think they have been offered a change ( i get your point about you thinking those who have offered a change are no different) but the people are hoping that at long last there is chance to change that status quo.

Now you and others MAY think that they are racists, rednecks or other slurs, and foolish to believe that things will really change, however those who voted the way they have think they have no other choice left to them but to try in the hope that things will change for them.

Do you deny them that hope?

Trump hasn't given any details on what he will change, so I see no reason to believe that he will. He also has a remarkable ability to change his views completely overnight and deny that he ever thought what he did before. There is nothing in his business career to date or the people who he surrounds himself with to suggest that he is interested in economic change that we see a fairer distribution of money.

I call him a racist because he ran an election campaign based on fear of immigration and stoking up racial hatred. It is notable that the ex head of the KKK was one of the first people to congratulate him this morning.

I wouldn't want to deny anyone hope but I think that those hopes are unfounded.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Everyone lost out under them - we're still paying the price for Blair/Brown's fiscal diarrhoea now.

As per usual, the Conservatives have to wipe up their mess and get the economy stable before people forget how screwed up everything was and vote some fudgewit leftie in again.

Ha, ha, ha. Well of course you would say that wouldn't you. It represents your economic interest. Just don't keep trying to blow smoke up my arse by insisting this is also in my economic interest. This pretty much sums up the disaffected vote in America...people trying to blow smoke up the voter's arses. They are over it!

 

[milo]

I agree mate and I never said it would be easy. It will very hard. Look at how the trash Murdoch press whip up anti migrant hysteria. This acts as a smokescreen to hide the real culprits.

The Sun, Mail, Express and Telegraph feed a steady stream of racist bigotry every day and our politicians pander to it rather than challenge it.

This is made worse by a broadcast media who have decided that impartiality means given equal air time to opposing views but never challenging them.

 

[Yermiyahu]

We were d

Wouldn't that hope be better served voting for Sanders or Corbyn who would actually try an deliver a fairer society?

We were denied the opportunity to vote for Bernie. Trump was our revenge on crooked Hillary

 

[DTA]

We were d
We were denied the opportunity to vote for Bernie. Trump was our revenge on crooked Hillary

Not sure she is any more crooked then trump. But the one saving grace in all this, is the fact that I don't actually think he believes what he says half the time.

Bernie seemed like a good candidate, I would have voted for him.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I don't need convincing on that, I'm fairly socially centrist (possibly a little to the left I terms of freedom of choice). It's the economic side of the argument where I lean to the right.

If it weren't for the likes of Clinton I'd align myself fairly closely with the Democrats in the US - I just really dislike her, not the party or its politics.

Ha, ha so you would be voting for Bernie if you lived in Vermont then? Not!

 

[parklane1]

Trump hasn't given any details on what he will change, so I see no reason to believe that he will. He also has a remarkable ability to change his views completely overnight and deny that he ever thought what he did before. There is nothing in his business career to date or the people who he surrounds himself with to suggest that he is interested in economic change that we see a fairer distribution of money.

I call him a racist because he ran an election campaign based on fear of immigration and stoking up racial hatred. It is notable that the ex head of the KKK was one of the first people to congratulate him this morning.

I wouldn't want to deny anyone hope but I think that those hopes are unfounded.

Taking this one at a time

(1) But you can see a reason to believe he will not?

(2) You misunderstand me, i was refering to those who voted for Brexit and Trump being called racists, rednecks' etc many have done just that.

(3) Well you are of course entitled to that opinion, just like those who have hopes that it will change. Instead they get called racists, rednecks and other slurs.

 

[parklane1]

Wouldn't that hope be better served voting for Sanders or Corbyn who would actually try an deliver a fairer society?

Well seeing as Corbyn had nothing to do with the Brexit then no, as for Saunders its a moot point because he was not one of the two who were running and had a chance to win.

 

[scaramanga]

Ha, ha so you would be voting for Bernie if you lived in Vermont then? Not!

Sanders is no more a Democrat than Trump is a Republican.

He holds fringe ideas in the US and is just no good at selling them (unlike Trump).

 

[Yermiyahu]

What Trump has actually achieved here is quite incredible, with little more than a baseball cap and a slogan, he took on the Republican party, 15 other people running for the nomination and somehow he won. He took on a hostile media and won, and finally took Hillary Clinton and the democratic machine and against all odds won, and won big.

He created a movement never before seen in America, we were repeatedly told by the American media that he didn't stand a chance, that he would be humiliated on election day as Queen Hillary cruised to power.

A month ago after Pussygate, media commentators were saying he should stand down. he could never win. He never gave up, he just kept going, day in day out. He blew it up, and love him or loathe him,he has pulled off the greatest political upset in American history.

 

[thfcsteff]

No i do understand what you are saying, the vote in both has gone the way it has because folks are fed up with the status quo. Now they think they have been offered a change ( i get your point about you thinking those who have offered a change are no different) but the people are hoping that at long last there is chance to change that status quo.

Now you and others MAY think that they are racists, rednecks or other slurs, and foolish to believe that things will really change, however those who voted the way they have think they have no other choice left to them but to try in the hope that things will change for them.

Do you deny them that hope?

No mate. And don't worry. They will get their 'change'. I rather doubt it delivers (for the vast majority of them) what they thought it might, but they will get it. He will be able to (possibly) replace THREE supreme court judges and push bills through the house and congress like a salt cellar down a dining room table. Change is not simply hope, it is inevitable. Not forgetting how much more religion is going to figure into every facet of legislature. Christianity, that is. It's going to be bad...

 

[thfcsteff]

What Trump has actually achieved here is quite incredible, with little more than a baseball cap and a slogan, he took on the Republican party, 15 other people running for the nomination and somehow he won. He took on a hostile media and won, and finally took Hillary Clinton and the democratic machine and against all odds won, and won big.

He created a movement never before seen in America, we were repeatedly told by the American media that he didn't stand a chance, that he would be humiliated on election day as Queen Hillary cruised to power.

A month ago after Pussygate, media commentators were saying he should stand down. he could never win. He never gave up, he just kept going, day in day out. He blew it up, and love him or loathe him,he has pulled off the greatest political upset in American history.

He's a cheap, loud and fast salesman, she's a lawyer. It was on the cards because she could never wrap her head around a dumbed-down populist rhetoric, and the reality that (in fact) if you actually lie BIG people don't notice or don't care.