American politics

[thfcsteff]

I never said people shouldn’t be held accountable, but not for individuals like Lincoln who lived centuries ago but people have decided just now that his values don’t measure up to todays standards. That’s not accountability, it’s a cheap way to make yourself look more enlightened. I think people resurrecting decade old tweets and other people piling on in an attempt to de-platform them or get them fired is petty. If you think that’s “Accountability” then I guess we will have to leave it there.

He isn’t saying that.
You have missed his point mate IMO IF the people looking to change the wording are from the right/conservative side in this specific case. The point you’re making is a different (albeit related one). The example was of Texas Educators wanting to replace the term ‘slavery’ with ‘involuntary relocation’, which from a right/conservative perspective is actually diluting the actions/facts and taking advantage of a climate where plenty of good changes are being made. They are trying to make it look ‘nicer’ in future history rather than the ugly truth it is. I know we agree on that. But surely the term ‘PC’ is used when there is a potential overreach i.e. do we now go back to an old Fawlty Towers episode and edit The Major’s speech? Personally, for me, no. That’s an overreach. But do we make sure that pejoratives such as ‘fag’ or ‘poof’ (for examples) are removed from common language? For me, absolutely, however some people feel that is an overreach.

Thus I think what R was trying to say is that the term ‘PC’ has been broadly over (and mis)used now for a considerable amount of time. The irony of the discussion is that we’re all largely on the same side I believe.

 

[Rorschach]

I never said people shouldn’t be held accountable, but not for individuals like Lincoln who lived centuries ago but people have decided just now that his values don’t measure up to todays standards. That’s not accountability, it’s a cheap way to make yourself look more enlightened. I think people resurrecting decade old tweets and other people piling on in an attempt to de-platform them or get them fired is petty. If you think that’s “Accountability” then I guess we will have to leave it there.

Nor I. I am talking about the semantic drift in the meaning of phrases and you are talking about the fairness of holding someone to account for past behavior.

 

[Rorschach]

The end goal should be to prevent him from ever running for POTUS again.

That should be one of the end goals, a very obvious one, but if that is the only thing that happens as a result of the hearings it will have failed IMO. This is an investigation into a conspiracy to overturn a fair election and all involved need to be held to account (there's that word again ). All co-conspirators must be indicted or this will be seen as just a failed test run, and even that will not be enough. Congress needs to legislate for the weak points in their electoral system as highlighted by Eastman's scheme as these can still be exploited. But far more worrying is the case coming to their Supreme court next term which would in effect take Eastman's scheme and make it legal i.e. state legislators can overrule the will of voters. That is the end of American demoracy.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Nor I. I am talking about the semantic drift in the meaning of phrases and you are talking about the fairness of holding someone to account for past behavior.

That’s totally fine and I have not said people shouldn’t be held to account for things they have done and said that are wrong. I just take issue with going back and hauling people over the coals when they have been dead for decades /centuries because their values aren’t progressive enough by today’s standards. You can’t judge people who lived hundreds of years ago by today’s norms and conventions. I’m not sure what purpose that serves and I don’t think it’s very effective.

 

[Jurgen the German]

That should be one of the end goals, a very obvious one, but if that is the only thing that happens as a result of the hearings it will have failed IMO. This is an investigation into a conspiracy to overturn a fair election and all involved need to be held to account (there's that word again ). All co-conspirators must be indicted or this will be seen as just a failed test run, and even that will not be enough. Congress needs to legislate for the weak points in their electoral system as highlighted by Eastman's scheme as these can still be exploited. But far more worrying is the case coming to their Supreme court next term which would in effect take Eastman's scheme and make it legal i.e. state legislators can overrule the will of voters. That is the end of American demoracy.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m worried about the state of American politics, particularly the Republican Party. They don’t believe in the emergency of climate change and seem to have stopped believing in democracy. But the most important thing is to stop Trump from running again. If he runs and loses, he will just say he won, but this time he’s been putting people in place who will do his bidding and will overturn elections for him. I’m not sure another candidate like De Santis would refuse to concede the result like Trump has. Let’s hope not.

 

[Rorschach]

That’s totally fine and I have not said people shouldn’t be held to account for things they have done and said that are wrong. I just take issue with going back and hauling people over the coals when they have been dead for decades /centuries because their values aren’t progressive enough by today’s standards. You can’t judge people who lived hundreds of years ago by today’s norms and conventions. I’m not sure what purpose that serves and I don’t think it’s very effective.

Sure, but that is a whole different topic mate. I'm going to change tack and see if you get where I was going with this.

Let's take the word woke. The original meaning of woke is someone who would be alert to racial discrimination, more or less. Now when you hear woke what it does mean? Basically nothing, and everything. The word has been hijacked just like many others have. It is now a pointless word that has fairly a nebulous meaning, and it's used mostly by the right as a generic slur generally to those on the left. This is my original point.

 

[richie_spur]

Sure, but that is a whole different topic mate. I'm going to change tack and see if you get where I was going with this.

Let's take the word woke. The original meaning of woke is someone who would be alert to racial discrimination, more or less. Now when you hear woke what it does mean? Basically nothing, and everything. The word has been hijacked just like many others have. It is now a pointless word that has fairly a nebulous meaning, and it's used mostly by the right as a generic slur generally to those on the left. This is my original point.

It always annoys me that it is 'woke' and not 'awakened'. "I am" or "I have woke" is just bad English.

 

[thfcsteff]

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m worried about the state of American politics, particularly the Republican Party. They don’t believe in the emergency of climate change and seem to have stopped believing in democracy. But the most important thing is to stop Trump from running again. If he runs and loses, he will just say he won, but this time he’s been putting people in place who will do his bidding and will overturn elections for him. I’m not sure another candidate like De Santis would refuse to concede the result like Trump has. Let’s hope not.

My fear (has been for some time) is Pence prez, DeSantis VP. These hearings almost seem like a way to lionize Pence and throw the clown to the dirt. It is disturbing.

 

[Rorschach]

My fear (has been for some time) is Pence prez, DeSantis VP. These hearings almost seem like a way to lionize Pence and throw the clown to the dirt. It is disturbing.

Here are my predictions for what they are worth. I don't think it will be Pence as he 'betrayed' Trump on Jan 6th. His maga bonafides are not pure enough after that.

As for Trump, he may declare for president soon so as to cast the Jan 6th stuff as political but that won't save him IMO. He's done. He won't be running IMO.

It will be DeSantis. In a lot of ways, he is worse than Trump but he doesn't have the cult of personality that Trump has. The best thing is that Trump and DeSantis go to war with each other and suppress the GOP vote.

 

[thfcsteff]

Here are my predictions for what they are worth. I don't think it will be Pence as he 'betrayed' Trump on Jan 6th. His maga bonafides are not pure enough after that.

As for Trump, he may declare for president soon so as to cast the Jan 6th stuff as political but that won't save him IMO. He's done. He won't be running IMO.

It will be DeSantis. In a lot of ways, he is worse than Trump but he doesn't have the cult of personality that Trump has. The best thing is that Trump and DeSantis go to war with each other and suppress the GOP vote.

I think Pence is their tool and DeSantis their puppet mouth. Let’s hope we’re both wrong!

 

[Jurgen the German]

Sure, but that is a whole different topic mate. I'm going to change tack and see if you get where I was going with this.

Let's take the word woke. The original meaning of woke is someone who would be alert to racial discrimination, more or less. Now when you hear woke what it does mean? Basically nothing, and everything. The word has been hijacked just like many others have. It is now a pointless word that has fairly a nebulous meaning, and it's used mostly by the right as a generic slur generally to those on the left. This is my original point.

The word woke has become a bit of a concept creep. When I first heard it, it meant someone awakened to struggles of minorities, and it still does mean that for the most part. But there is a certain type of woke person who is overly sensitive, overfly fragile, shouts people down on twitter for not being as progressive as them, thinks any standup comedian who is edgy in any way should be cancelled, de-platformed and should have their Netflix specials removed from the platform. Those 10% of woke people are irritating to the vast majority of people, including liberals. So in some degree, it’s a bit of a fallacy to say it’s only the right wing who use it as slur, because a lot of people on the left are tired of them too including Thomas Chatteron Williams, John McWhorter (the video I posted on the previous page), Bill Maher, Obama and a lot of people in Academia.

 

[Jurgen the German]

My fear (has been for some time) is Pence prez, DeSantis VP. These hearings almost seem like a way to lionize Pence and throw the clown to the dirt. It is disturbing.

Not a fan of Pence or DeSantis, but either of them is a better scenario than Trump being POTUS IMO. However, I don’t think the republicans would vote for Pence after he stood up to Trump. They are completely beholden to Trump. I’m also worried that the Democrats don’t have anyone half decent to defeat the Republicans. I really like Andrew Yang, but he has created his own party and has no chance of beating the other two parties.

 

[Lost Mango]

Not a fan of Pence or DeSantis, but either of them is a better scenario than Trump being POTUS IMO. However, I don’t think the republicans would vote for Pence after he stood up to Trump. They are completely beholden to Trump. I’m also worried that the Democrats don’t have anyone half decent to defeat the Republicans. I really like Andrew Yang, but he has created his own party and has no chance of beating the other two parties.

As Jurgen says, Pence is a dead politician now. The Trumpians see him as a traitor for not following orders, the non-Trumpians see him as a facilitator of the worst of the Don.

Doubt he will even run for the Republican nomination to be honest. He would be destroyed from all sides.

DeSantis is a nasty piece of work hiding under a much more civil superficial skin. He will take the Republicans even further right but not with the same confrontation and heat that Trump generated.

Really would be good if the current VP developed some sort of profile over the next 18 months but beyond her not sure who could stand. Think they are accepting Biden wants a 2nd Term so won't contest it but think that will be fatal.

 

[braineclipse]

Another reason I don’t like political correctness. This is right wing PC as opposed to left wing PC. It’s essentially sensitivity over truth.

It is and it isn't imo.

You may very well include this as "right wing PC", though I would use different words. I think this is Orwellian newspeak.

I imagine that some of what you would call "left wing PC" I wouldn't agree with as sensitivity over truth as a description. But difficult to say without specific examples.

 

[Jordinho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542941851128401920

But having to wear a mask is a violation of their precious freedoms.

 

[braineclipse]

That’s totally fine and I have not said people shouldn’t be held to account for things they have done and said that are wrong. I just take issue with going back and hauling people over the coals when they have been dead for decades /centuries because their values aren’t progressive enough by today’s standards. You can’t judge people who lived hundreds of years ago by today’s norms and conventions. I’m not sure what purpose that serves and I don’t think it’s very effective.

Depends on how history and culture has previously talked about those people imo.

I think some coal raking can be in order at times. One shouldn't judge people of the past on today's standards, but also one shouldn't ignore the wrongs of the past because people were a product of their time.

 

[braineclipse]

The word woke has become a bit of a concept creep. When I first heard it, it meant someone awakened to struggles of minorities, and it still does mean that for the most part. But there is a certain type of woke person who is overly sensitive, overfly fragile, shouts people down on twitter for not being as progressive as them, thinks any standup comedian who is edgy in any way should be cancelled, de-platformed and should have their Netflix specials removed from the platform. Those 10% of woke people are irritating to the vast majority of people, including liberals. So in some degree, it’s a bit of a fallacy to say it’s only the right wing who use it as slur, because a lot of people on the left are tired of them too including Thomas Chatteron Williams, John McWhorter (the video I posted on the previous page), Bill Maher, Obama and a lot of people in Academia.

Sure. I'm not sure you'd find even 10% of self identified woke people who would agree that this is a good representation of their views, but there probably is some amount of them around.

I think they should be ignored or argued against depending on their level of power and influence.

Similarly people on the right who are the one's mainly responsible for the concept creep should be ignored or argued against depending on their level of power and influence.

I find a lot more people with real power and influence in the second group than the first. I find that more concerning. Particularly given the original meaning of the word and the overall zeitgeist of diluting the meaning of words like this as highlighted by Rorschach.

 

[braineclipse]

I think one of the problems is that some terms have been co-opted as some broad-stroke pejorative with no bearing to their original meaning. Woke is a good example, or cancel culture is another meaningless expression now. In the example above, right-wing political correctness is an oxymoron in my opinion. There is no both sides to being an ignorant asshole. You are one or you are not.

I like to use the original definitions...
woke = not a fudging racist
pc = not a fudging asshole
cancel culture = own your fudging brick or face the consequences
....but as soon as I hear any of those terms being introduced to a discussion I tend to ignore the rest of what is being said as I know where things are headed.

Top post mate.

A similar thing happened with "fake news" imo. Though a different term at first, one that was useful that went to being diluted and more or less useless.

CRT seems to have been the latest one targeted in this way, more similar to the one's you list.

I have very little doubt that this strategy will continue and will be effective.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Depends on how history and culture has previously talked about those people imo.

I think some coal raking can be in order at times. One shouldn't judge people of the past on today's standards, but also one shouldn't ignore the wrongs of the past because people were a product of their time.

I think it’s fine to acknowledge that people from a different time had values that don’t necessarily represent modern liberal values of today, but people don’t have a crystal ball and are capable of knowing what is deemed unacceptable or even frowned upon hundreds of after their time. I can guarantee future generations will look back on our generations and ask “why did they do that?” And “what were they thinking?” We shouldn’t ever stop striving to evolve, civilisations evolve over time. I keep using Lincoln as an example because he used to be remembered for being the president for leading America during a difficult period in US history and for his part in ending slavery, he is often voted America’s greatest ever president. Nowadays, he is seen as a bigot because his views on race (despite his role in ending slavery) aren’t progress by todays standards. But in his time, he was an outlier. Some schools in America have gone as far as to remove his name from schools and have removed statues, even in his home state of Illinois. That for me is silly and is going to far to signal how virtuous you are. If Lincoln isn’t good enough for you then who is? To me it is a cheap way to make our generation look more enlightened. I’d be fine with people acknowledging that his views on race don’t represent modern values of today, but on the whole, he did far more good than bad. I wish more liberals would push back on this kind of thing. To be fair, Sadiq Khan said the statue of Churchill would not be removed when protesters tried to tear it down in 2020. This sort of thing just makes liberals look bad IMO.

 

[Rorschach]

I think Pence is their tool and DeSantis their puppet mouth. Let’s hope we’re both wrong!

It might not matter who is running on either side if the SC rule the wrong way in this Moore v Harper case.