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World Cup 2026: Mexico, USA and Canada

thfcsteff said:
They didn't sub Tagliafico until the 81st min to
my memory.

And yes, maybe Rashford ends up on the floor, etc, and then we can have a proper debate about 'DNA' and 'same as it has ever been' and all this piffle. The fact is we'll never know because Tuchel left Rashford, Saka, Eze and Madueke, Watkins and Tony on the bench for
virtually the whole match, and instead brought on Konsa, O'Reilly and Burn. By the time he realised his mistake, and threw on a couple of attackers in a hail Mary, it was too late.

Regarding Southgate.
1) in 2021 we lost on a penalty shoot-out. The margins were incredibly fine. There is a good argument that Chellini's foul on Saka in the 96th min prevented what could've been a winner.
2) Look at Southgate's subs in 2018 (another ET game)

No, I don't think Southgate is a gas-lighter.
He is a very honest man who I think got undeserved stick. I always found him a very honest and earnest person who was unafraid to accept criticism or defend his players. Sadly, in two years of Tuchel, I have not seen that. His treatment of Mainoo has been appalling IMO. His squad selection? His choice, albeit I think he made three key mistakes.
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I agree with you 100% on Southgate.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I don’t think it’s beyond tactics or subs, but I do think it’s gone too far in that direction (in the country at large) and not enough consideration applied to executing better on the pitch. And I think it’s often spoken of as if doing X or Y change would have made a difference, and not enough recognition of the fact that Messi would have found different spaces depending on the shape we used.

But I do get the criticism. Ideally the manager would have been able to do something to swing the momentum back in our favour. I just think there is something that the country at large is missing right now, some sort of explanation of the dynamic on the pitch, the general response to the coaching, tactics, system etc, that we haven’t quite understood. Whether the players are struggling to put into practice what he wants, whether they don’t quite buy in to what he wants, I don’t know. I just think it was ‘off’ and a breakdown that spanned beyond negative subs.
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(@the risk of upsetting @revelis further)...

I think you're right and I think there's a massive missing piece. The Premier League has become all about strength and speed first. Set-pieces. That sort of thing. And I suppose it's clear that somewhere along the line, Tuchel decided to go lock-stock in with that. Wherever I can have strength and speed as the dominant characteristic, that's my path. So I think you're right when you say he had a plan and he devised a way he thought would best reflect what he viewed as our 'culture', and that meant no room for players like Palmer, Foden, MGW, (let alone Grealish, albeit I am not suggesting he was a viable option), and it further explains why he wants midfielders like Rice, Anderson, Henderson and Rogers, plus defenders like Quansah, Konsa and Burn. I think he's incredibly lucky he has Bellingham, who for my money is one of the top 5 players in the world, and within his remit, I'll bet he wishes he'd brought TAA.

So I think once again we have an identity crisis between what we think we can be versus what our manager thinks we're best being. Honestly, if we'd got to the Final I don't think we'd have beaten Spain playing the Tuchel way. It's also a fair question to ask whether we'd have got to the semi playing another way with a different squad? You'll know which I would like us to strive for...with the caveat of course that everything should be about balance...

As ever, a fine discussion...
 
thfcsteff said:
(@the risk of upsetting @revelis further)...

I think you're right and I think there's a massive missing piece. The Premier League has become all about strength and speed first. Set-pieces. That sort of thing. And I suppose it's clear that somewhere along the line, Tuchel decided to go lock-stock in with that. Wherever I can have strength and speed as the dominant characteristic, that's my path. So I think you're right when you say he had a plan and he devised a way he thought would best reflect what he viewed as our 'culture', and that meant no room for players like Palmer, Foden, MGW, (let alone Grealish, albeit I am not suggesting he was a viable option), and it further explains why he wants midfielders like Rice, Anderson, Henderson and Rogers, plus defenders like Quansah, Konsa and Burn. I think he's incredibly lucky he has Bellingham, who for my money is one of the top 5 players in the world, and within his remit, I'll bet he wishes he'd brought TAA.

So I think once again we have an identity crisis between what we think we can be versus what our manager thinks we're best being. Honestly, if we'd got to the Final I don't think we'd have beaten Spain playing the Tuchel way. It's also a fair question to ask whether we'd have got to the semi playing another way with a different squad? You'll know which I would like us to strive for...with the caveat of course that everything should be about balance...

As ever, a fine discussion...
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Yeah…honestly I made the mistake of under estimating Spain. I was so confident that England could beat anyone. My only concern was France, which I thought was a coin flip, but everyone else I thought we had too much physicality for them. And when you combine that with the fact that it looked like a World Cup of stars, we had a couple that made the moments, and I thought we’d get all the way until we see who won out Kane and Jude vs Mbappe and Dembele (and Olise…)

It ended up being the World Cup of depth, and it was under appreciated (at least by me) how much Spain had, as well as how baked their style is to every player. I honestly think it’s some of the best football I’ve ever seen. It takes the 2010 short passing and coordination but adds a pace and a tempo that is phenomenal to watch going forward, and with so much control to hold Argentina to 0 shots in normal time.

As it relates to England, I like that Tuchel had a defined strategy, I thought him making big calls on leaving big players behind was a good sign. I assume with Trent for example that he imagined his full backs needing to defend a lot 1 v 1 (likely because he would be willing to make a game a bit more end to end if he was attacking with pace) and thought Spence was a perfect fit for that. It’s good to have a thesis on how to be differentiated and win around that, rather than the blind expectation of the golden generation which just assumed all the best players could play together, and that other countries didn’t also have just as many good players as we did.

I’m very interested in what comes next. The bet on physicality makes sense when you see how our clubs fared in Europe, but does he now jettison that for something else? Does the lack of a counter to Argentina show Tuchel and the squad that actually the way they all want is something more akin to a Spain? Is it possible to win by trying to be more like them? Or what is the right balance between our culture and the winning style? All good questions,
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Yeah…honestly I made the mistake of under estimating Spain. I was so confident that England could beat anyone. My only concern was France, which I thought was a coin flip, but everyone else I thought we had too much physicality for them. And when you combine that with the fact that it looked like a World Cup of stars, we had a couple that made the moments, and I thought we’d get all the way until we see who won out Kane and Jude vs Mbappe and Dembele (and Olise…)
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France were my firm favourites. I thought the Dutch could be a sneaker side. I thought Spain would be final 4 but no more. I was not expecting England to get beyond the QFs once I saw the squad. The sheer amount of football already in the bodies of players key to Tuchel's squad worried me.


SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
It ended up being the World Cup of depth, and it was under appreciated (at least by me) how much Spain had, as well as how baked their style is to every player. I honestly think it’s some of the best football I’ve ever seen. It takes the 2010 short passing and coordination but adds a pace and a tempo that is phenomenal to watch going forward, and with so much control to hold Argentina to 0 shots in normal time.
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For me, the fact Spain did this without a recognisable out and out forward a la Villa, Torres, etc, was amazing.



SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
As it relates to England, I like that Tuchel had a defined strategy, I thought him making big calls on leaving big players behind was a good sign. I assume with Trent for example that he imagined his full backs needing to defend a lot 1 v 1 (likely because he would be willing to make a game a bit more end to end if he was attacking with pace) and thought Spence was a perfect fit for that. It’s good to have a thesis on how to be differentiated and win around that, rather than the blind expectation of the golden generation which just assumed all the best players could play together, and that other countries didn’t also have just as many good players as we did.
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Yes, he made choices. I didn't like them. I hope you're right re: TAA, rumours of other reasons are disturbing but hopefully not worth the gas they came in on. I never fell for 'the golden generation' crap either TBH. I have always liked blends. I personally felt that what Southgate did was enormously progressive. He built a great squad twice over with a very good blend of players. His greatest problem was lack of experience, which developed over time with him. We were a penalty shoot-out from him achieving the Euros, I personally would've stuck with him but the press/rhetoric was already too great and I suspect he'd had enough. But the work he did was amazing. I think the only thing I'd criticize is how he used Dele in 2018 (deeper to accommodate Lindgaard), however, I cannot doubt the motive behind it, which was to have more attack-minded players on the pitch, even in deeper areas.

I personally think that unless you are a Spain, you have to have different tricks in your deck for different situations. And I found Tuchel wanting at the vital moment.



SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’m very interested in what comes next. The bet on physicality makes sense when you see how our clubs fared in Europe, but does he now jettison that for something else? Does the lack of a counter to Argentina show Tuchel and the squad that actually the way they all want is something more akin to a Spain? Is it possible to win by trying to be more like them? Or what is the right balance between our culture and the winning style? All good questions,
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I don't understand why he cannot fashion a system which incorporates strength, speed, and more creative intent beyond speed and power? The truth is that for the next several years we should be building around the core of Bellingham/Rice/Anderson. I'd like to see stronger options to swap Saka with than Madueke (who sadly froze) and we'll certainly have to probably start thinking of options other than Rashford for Gordon. CF is a massive issue too. Harry is Harry and we need to develop/fashion a CF who can comfortably rotate with him. Watkins is not quite the man for me, and neither is Toney. Delap has turned out to be agricultural...I wonder if Lankshear will have created enough presence to be a contender for the next World Cup?

Rio Ngumoha is an exciting prospect but we still need to see how he develops in the next season, Myles-Lewis Skelley will be in the squads, and our own Archie Gray will certainly develop into an important squad member IMO. I would expect Adam Wharton walk into the next squad, and I hope TAA gets back in too. Back to striker...it feels like we could be entering the era of a false 9 with some experienced stalwart to be in the squad/on the bench?
 
BTW, I have found my views on this tournament confusing and, indeed, have found the whole tournament confusing overall as there have been amazing moments and plenty of absurd, ridiculous ones. The important people - the players and coaches - have all contributed to a great World Cup in pure football terms. The rest of it? Hmmmmmmm...
 
thfcsteff said:
...I was actually stunned by the post-match behavior of Paredes. On another note, I was glad that Fernandez was sent-off. I'd say quite possibly a game too late, but there we go!
And well done Spain. I readily admit they were in a pack of teams I thought might beat my pick for winners, France. In the end I did not take enough notice of their national structure and the system in place. ONE GOAL CONCEDED all tournament is just incredible. I believe @Baleforce is applying for Spanish residency in the morning ;)
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I was stunned he appeared to be the only one wanting a fight.
 
P.D. said:
Awful final, Spain have bored their way to 2 world cups now.
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Unfair on Spain, they play football. But I was surprised by how poor they were after they scored. Could barely put 2 passes together and Argentina could and probably should have equalised.
 
thfcsteff said:
BTW, I have found my views on this tournament confusing and, indeed, have found the whole tournament confusing overall as there have been amazing moments and plenty of absurd, ridiculous ones. The important people - the players and coaches - have all contributed to a great World Cup in pure football terms. The rest of it? Hmmmmmmm...
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....the supporters in the stands?
 
Bishop said:
Yeah. Did you not see them trying to play out of the back but Spain had them clamped down? It wasn't for a lack of trying, it was a lack of comparable ability.

Thats why I called them budget Spain.
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Playing out from the back is what denotes them as "budget Spain"? So is just about every international team who made it to the world cup quarter finals "budget Spain", including England?
 
glorygloryeze? said:
Playing out from the back is what denotes them as "budget Spain"? So is just about every international team who made it to the world cup quarter finals "budget Spain", including England?
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No I'm saying if you watch them play, they try to play the short intricate passing game. We've seen them do it throughout this tourny. But when they came up against a superior side they fell well short.

They still tried to play that way but Spain clamped them down. Numerous times they well trying to build play and list it constantly. My comparison isn't of quality but play style hence the "budget" part. England as an example don't play this way at all, nor do France, but Argentina when they have the capability against inferior opponents play the same short, intricate passing game that Spain do. They are just no where near comparable in quality.
 
Bishop said:
No I'm saying if you watch them play, they try to play the short intricate passing game. We've seen them do it throughout this tourny. But when they came up against a superior side they fell well short.

They still tried to play that way but Spain clamped them down. Numerous times they well trying to build play and list it constantly. My comparison isn't of quality but play style hence the "budget" part. England as an example don't play this way at all, nor do France, but Argentina when they have the capability against inferior opponents play the same short, intricate passing game that Spain do. They are just no where near comparable in quality.
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I really don't Argentina's 'intricate passing game' was any different to anyone else that comes up again Spain, certainly no difference to when England played Spain in the Euros final two years ago.
As predicted, they were more interested in turning the game niggly and doing fouls than playing football because they knew that that was the 'leveller' they needed to push to give them a fighting (hah!) chance. They almost always do this when facing any opponent that they deem a near equal.
In terms of passing style i think Cape Verde, Morocco or Portugal would be closer in style.
Again, i think you overplay their passing style and underplay England's (not that i'm saying England play tikitaka).
In international football, most teams who go far in competations held in warm/hot temperatures almost by necessity have to have a passing style (as opposed to constant hoofing) just to not exhaust themselves and stay in a game. The days of a Sven team getting 'bored' of keeping posession after 3 passes and hoofing it are long gone.
I do think the best teams know how to mix and match though and even Spain scored from mixing long crosses and intricate passing.

Anyway, good chat.
 
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