Who would we miss the most ?

[Pirate55]

What?
He'd make sure Modric was the fulcrum point of the side!!!!! 'Doesn't create enough?' Behave! And don't throw 'assist' stats at me, very often it is the pass BEFORE the obvious assist which is the most important...

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. As Jurgen pointed out earlier, we got to 4th two seasons ago largely without Modric. Furthermore, he inspired us to just one victory against our main rivals this season. For me, he simply just doesnt turn close games games in our favour. Yet as you state he his supposed to be the fulcrum of our side. We finished fifth last year with him supposedly "bossing the midfield". We need our big players to play more crucial roles. For me, Modric doesnt impose himself on games - or at least doesnt do it enough.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Exactly. Yet some are desperate to compare him to the likes of Silva, Nasri, Ozil etc who all play with great freedom and little defensive responsibility. I'm not saying Modric would suddenly become as productive as them in the final third if he was moved forward, he would improve but it's simply not his game yet he gets pigeonholed into the off the shelf continental little #10 type.

Spot on, had a massive argument last summer about that when people were saying "sell him to Chelsea, ?ú20m bite their hand off, he doesn't score enough!" ](*,)

 

[milo]

OK - I will never win this without proving your last point. Trust me though, its a trait we both suffer from.

read my post in answer to PLJ, hopefully it will put things into context.

I plead guilty to being high handed on occasions but I can't remember ever posting "I think this and if you disagree you know nothing about..." I don't wish this to dissolve into another argument though and think it would be in the best interests of this thread if we both let it go.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes I agree it is simplistic view, but more often than not, I believe it's the case that the most important player in a team is the one who is the biggest goal threat. I will admit I'm biased as I am a striker. I know Modric isn't in the team to score goals, but if he did score 10+ goals a season, then he would have a much stronger case for being our most important player.[/B]

I agree about "more often than not", it's hardly a very convincing argument in a specific situation though, is it? Especially seeing as none of the players we are discussing are our main goalscorers.

are you now saying that modric is just an out and out defensive midfielder?

I hope you're consciously writing that as a straw man argument. If you actually think that this is what I think after what we have discussed here either I am exceptionally poor at expressing my views or you are exceptionally poor at comprehending what you read.

 

[Pirate55]

I agree about "more often than not", it's hardly a very convincing argument in a specific situation though, is it? Especially seeing as none of the players we are discussing are our main goalscorers.



I hope you're consciously writing that as a straw man argument. If you actually think that this is what I think after what we have discussed here either I am exceptionally poor at expressing my views or you are exceptionally poor at comprehending what you read.

Not at all. Is Modric a defensive midfielder in your opinion? The answer surely is no. Therefore you must compare apples to apples. He is not a Barry, Song, Essien, Cattermole, Ciote or Parker. Is he a midfield maestro like Fabragas, Gerrard, Lampard? No. Should he be? In my view, he should be more so as he has Parker/Sandro sitting. We dont need two sitters - especially with VDV coming deep.

 

[Rossi22]

Each of those have been playing at the tip of a 3 man midfield, take away 50% of Luka's defensive responsibility from him and he'd get more goals and more direct assists. Whether we'd be better off for it I'm not too sure.

 

[braineclipse]

Not at all. Is Modric a defensive midfielder in your opinion? The answer surely is no. Therefore you must compare apples to apples. He is not a Barry, Song, Essien, Cattermole, Ciote or Parker. Is he a midfield maestro like Fabragas, Gerrard, Lampard? No. Should he be? In my view, he should be more so as he has Parker/Sandro sitting. We dont need two sitters - especially with VDV coming deep.

It seems you think I'm an idiot. I don't particularly mind, but seeing as around 40% of the people here have an opinion similar to mine I would suggest that you try to look at our arguments as if we're not all idiots. Try to understand them, try to read into what people actually are trying to say.

What kind of central midfielders are there in your opinion, so I know what I can choose from? I have already pointed out that I think his best role is as a deep playmaker. I have even compared him to other players that I feel play similar roles several times already in this thread. That doesn't seem to be a position you accept though?

This entire thread is about not comparing apples to apples though, how else can we compare Modric to Bale, VdV and Ade?

 

[Pirate55]

It seems you think I'm an idiot. I don't particularly mind, but seeing as around 40% of the people here have an opinion similar to mine I would suggest that you try to look at our arguments as if we're not all idiots. Try to understand them, try to read into what people actually are trying to say.

What kind of central midfielders are there in your opinion, so I know what I can choose from? I have already pointed out that I think his best role is as a deep playmaker. I have even compared him to other players that I feel play similar roles several times already in this thread. That doesn't seem to be a position you accept though?

This entire thread is about not comparing apples to apples though, how else can we compare Modric to Bale, VdV and Ade?

 

[Pirate55]

try to read into what people actually are trying to say. what does this mean?

I am sorry that you dont want to accept as valid any opinion other than your own. That doesnt mean it isnt right though or perhaps equally valid. Football is all about different opinions.

Nor does being in the major minority also "prove" your argument has more validity by the way.

Everyone on GG seems to take things incredibly personally if someone expresses a different viewpoint.

 

[THFCTB]

I understand why people voted for Bale, and I'm not trying to say that all 35 of you are wrong, but I think that it is very rare for a winger to be the most irreplaceable player in any team (I assume that that is a fair rewording of africanspur's question, correct me if I'm wrong). It sounds strange because the majority of wingers will get more goals and probably more assists than the playmaker in their side. My reasoning behind this though is that a playmaker, Modric in this case, can dictate the tempo, flow and direction of a game, in a way that no other player can. Playmakers don't tend to be given a huge amount of credit for their work. The amount of non-Spurs supporting friends who have told me that Modric is overrated is unbelievable. These are people who have told me, without any hesitation, that Bale is better than Modric. I don't believe this to be true, yet I can see why they say it.

As I said, most of time wingers have better stats than playmakers and are more skillful. Bale's work for the team is much more noticeable than Modric's. Yet, if we had a playmaker who was not on the same level as Modric, say Meireles, I don't think that Bale would look nearly as good as he does for us now. And that's why I believe that we would miss Modric much more than Bale. It would change the way our team plays.

Sidenote: I apologise for answering a different question to the one in the OP.

 

[braineclipse]

Pirate: It means that if you actually think that I thought Modric is an out and out defensive midfielder you do not understand what I'm saying at all. I'm suggesting maybe you try harder if you would like to discuss this. I didn't in any way say that because 40% of the people here agree with me that we were right. That would be a logical fallacy, I try to avoid those. I was just saying that it seemed quite likely that we weren't all idiots, and that there was something to our point that maybe could be worth figuring out. Again, if you want to discuss this. For me understanding what other people are saying is a very important part of discussions, and you clearly did not understand my point of view.

What makes you think that I don't accept your opinion as valid? Would you like me to start all my points with a disclaimer about how I accept that you have your opinions, that it could be right, that I accept that there's a chance I'm wrong or that the opinions could be equally valid? I think that all these things as a given, it seems self evident, but as a basis for discussion and arguments I use my own opinions. What else could I use? If you just wanted to write out your opinion and not argue your opinion against the opinions of other people that's fine, but then I have severely misunderstood your posts.

Just like I don't feel threatened by your opinions, I do not take these things personally, and I generally assume that the majority of people on here don't either. I'm normally straightforward about my opinions and try to cut to the chase, I try to get to the basis of the discussion or argument. If it would make you feel better if I complemented my opinions with a lot of carefully worded statements about how all opinions and people are worthy and valuable to the debate and how I accept your opinions and right to hold those opinions as part of us both being valuable, but different, human beings on this planet I can't help you. It's just too time consuming and too far away from the relevant points. You can however rest assured, I don't take your opinions personally, I'm just trying to discuss the relevant points because I enjoy talking about and discussing football. Stating my opinion clearly, in opposition to yours while trying to provide evidence for my viewpoint is not taking it personally.

All though I agree that there are a lot of different opinions in football, and that everyone are entitled to their opinion, I am in no way a relativist and I believe that some opinions are closer to the truth than others and that discussions are a decent way of seeing which one is closer to the truth.

 

[Modric THFC]

try to read into what people actually are trying to say. what does this mean?

I am sorry that you dont want to accept as valid any opinion other than your own. That doesnt mean it isnt right though or perhaps equally valid. Football is all about different opinions.

Nor does being in the major minority also "prove" your argument has more validity by the way.

Everyone on GG seems to take things incredibly personally if someone expresses a different viewpoint.

Football is about 22 players kicking a ball around.
Internet forums are all about different opinions.

Sometimes its a waste of time as poster's biases are so ingrained that they deny things that they have seen with their eyes.
I recall after the Chelsea game a poster denying Modric created 4 clear cut chances, then they went missing for 3 days after the 4 chances were listed in detail.

 

[Pirate55]

Pirate: It means that if you actually think that I thought Modric is an out and out defensive midfielder you do not understand what I'm saying at all. I'm suggesting maybe you try harder if you would like to discuss this. I didn't in any way say that because 40% of the people here agree with me that we were right. That would be a logical fallacy, I try to avoid those. I was just saying that it seemed quite likely that we weren't all idiots, and that there was something to our point that maybe could be worth figuring out. Again, if you want to discuss this. For me understanding what other people are saying is a very important part of discussions, and you clearly did not understand my point of view.

What makes you think that I don't accept your opinion as valid? Would you like me to start all my points with a disclaimer about how I accept that you have your opinions, that it could be right, that I accept that there's a chance I'm wrong or that the opinions could be equally valid? I think that all these things as a given, it seems self evident, but as a basis for discussion and arguments I use my own opinions. What else could I use? If you just wanted to write out your opinion and not argue your opinion against the opinions of other people that's fine, but then I have severely misunderstood your posts.

Just like I don't feel threatened by your opinions, I do not take these things personally, and I generally assume that the majority of people on here don't either. I'm normally straightforward about my opinions and try to cut to the chase, I try to get to the basis of the discussion or argument. If it would make you feel better if I complemented my opinions with a lot of carefully worded statements about how all opinions and people are worthy and valuable to the debate and how I accept your opinions and right to hold those opinions as part of us both being valuable, but different, human beings on this planet I can't help you. It's just too time consuming and too far away from the relevant points. You can however rest assured, I don't take your opinions personally, I'm just trying to discuss the relevant points because I enjoy talking about and discussing football. Stating my opinion clearly, in opposition to yours while trying to provide evidence for my viewpoint is not taking it personally.

All though I agree that there are a lot of different opinions in football, and that everyone are entitled to their opinion, I am in no way a relativist and I believe that some opinions are closer to the truth than others and that discussions are a decent way of seeing which one is closer to the truth.

The original question was who would we miss most. I stand by my opinion that out of Bale, Ade and Modric. We would miss Modric least. This is not only because in my view his effectiveness and ability to change the course of games is significantly less than the other two. This is bourne out by the statistics. Furthermore, we have adequate cover for Modric with several quality CMs. We dont have another Bale or Ade. Ipso Facto both of them are more important to us than Modric, particularly at this stage of the season. I would love him to step up, start scoring and making goals, winning the midfield battle, overrunning other teams midfields to such an extent that we dominate games from start to finish and really win the midfield area every game. It hasnt happened so far but I live in hope because he is a good player - but he could be so much more effective given his skill set.

 

[Pirate55]

Football is about 22 players kicking a ball around.
Internet forums are all about different opinions.

Sometimes its a waste of time as poster's biases are so ingrained that they deny things that they have seen with their eyes.
I recall after the Chelsea game a poster denying Modric created 4 clear cut chances, then they went missing for 3 days after the 4 chances were listed in detail.

Look at the statistics for Modric's assists this season. Then look at the chances he has had and the goals he hasnt scored. Finally, ask yourself which game he turned one point into three or nil points into one. It is his effectiveness I question not his ability.

 

[Modric THFC]

Look at the statistics for Modric's assists this season. Then look at the chances he has had and the goals he hasnt scored. Finally, ask yourself which game he turned one point into three or nil points into one. It is his effectiveness I question not his ability.

The problem is its a waste of time putting numbers on his effectiveness.
Look at his 'assist' for Saha's goal against Bolton. Modric didn't really do anything. Saha created the chance for himself.
Now look at what Modric did for VdV goal against Swansea. His pass took the Swansea right back out of the game and unleashed Bale. To me he created that Goal opportunity.

He's not gonna get a lot of assists because of the position he plays. You could stick him out the left. He'd increase his assists and his so called "effectiveness".
Look across at United, Scholes hasn't had a single assist since he returned. I suspose he hasn't been effective neither?

 

[Mumorn]

I never read too much into assists. I mean Bale got 1 assist in the league last season, yet has 10 this year, what gives? Is it the fact his final ball has improved? fudge no. He still creates the same amount of chances as he did last year, it's just we now have a striker capable of getting on the end of his crosses most of the time.

Modric has a hand in probably all of our goals one way or another. If he's not setting someone through to then set up a goal, he's winning the ball back and setting up another attack. The guy is brilliant and trust me, when we eventually lose him, we'll all realise what a player we had on our hands.

 

[Pirate55]

I never read too much into assists. I mean Bale got 1 assist in the league last season, yet has 10 this year, what gives? Is it the fact his final ball has improved? fudge no. He still creates the same amount of chances as he did last year, it's just we now have a striker capable of getting on the end of his crosses most of the time.

Modric has a hand in probably all of our goals one way or another. If he's not setting someone through to then set up a goal, he's winning the ball back and setting up another attack. The guy is brilliant and trust me, when we eventually lose him, we'll all realise what a player we had on our hands.

Ditto Bale.

2011–12

He scored his first goal of the season on 24 September 2011, in an away game against Wigan Athletic.[48] The game ended in a 2–1 victory for Tottenham. He added his second and third goals of the season on 30 October with two goals against Queens Park Rangers in a 3–1 home win.[49] He continued his good form with the first goal in a 3–1 victory over Fulham the following week, whilst also setting up Aaron Lennon who made it 2–0 on the stroke of half time.[50] The first goal against Fulham was later ruled by the "dubious goals committee" to be an own goal by Chris Baird.[51]

On 3 December, Bale scored the first goal in Tottenham's 3–0 victory over Bolton Wanderers. He marked the goal with a tribute to Gary Speed by holding up his left boot, with "R.I.P Gary Speed" stitched on it, in front of the Bolton fans.[52] On 27 December, Bale scored twice to give Tottenham a 2–0 win against Norwich City.[53] On 5 January 2012, Bale was announced as one of the players voted into the UEFA Team of the Year 2011. He scored his third brace of the season as he scored twice against Wigan on 31 January to take his tally to ten goals for the season.[54] In January 2012 he was announced as the January Premier League Player of the Month for the second time in his career, after three goals and two assists in the Premier League for the month.[55]

Quite apart from his KCs, I make it that Bale's goals have been responsible for 18 points this season. Quite simply, he is indispensible. The one man we cant afford to lose.

Final point, at the end of last season we disintegrated and fell away badly. Funny that it coincided with Bales injuries. He was still the PFA Player of the year and in the Premiership team of the season. QED Jeremiah.

 

[thfcsteff]

Look at the statistics for Modric's assists this season. Then look at the chances he has had and the goals he hasnt scored. Finally, ask yourself which game he turned one point into three or nil points into one. It is his effectiveness I question not his ability.

I ask this question with the greatest possible respect; do you, or have you ever, played (or coached at any level) football mate?

The thing which Modric does which is absolutely irreplaceable, is keep the ball AND keep it moving into the right places. Contrary to how it might seem, we do not have a player like Modric. Kranjcar is the closest with regards to finding a pass, but he has neither the engine or the industry and presence of Modric. I personally feel he should hit the target more than he does given the chances he does miss, however his overall game is unimpeachable, and furthermore, cannot be represented by statistics...I never fully trust stats without context. Look at Darren Bent's stats, then look at how the teams Darren Bent has played for end up doing, furthermore, look at Bent's effectiveness in the teams. Not pretty at the end of the day.

His influence on our season has been enormous, and trust me, he is irreplaceable...

 

[Pirate55]

I ask this question with the greatest possible respect; do you, or have you ever, played (or coached at any level) football mate?

The thing which Modric does which is absolutely irreplaceable, is keep the ball AND keep it moving into the right places. Contrary to how it might seem, we do not have a player like Modric. Kranjcar is the closest with regards to finding a pass, but he has neither the engine or the industry and presence of Modric. I personally feel he should hit the target more than he does given the chances he does miss, however his overall game is unimpeachable, and furthermore, cannot be represented by statistics...I never fully trust stats without context. Look at Darren Bent's stats, then look at how the teams Darren Bent has played for end up doing, furthermore, look at Bent's effectiveness in the teams. Not pretty at the end of the day.

His influence on our season has been enormous, and trust me, he is irreplaceable...

Since you ask, I have played for my country. my university, an FA Cup winning club and was on the books of a professional team. I broke numerous goalscoring records. How about you?

 

[thfcsteff]

Ditto Bale.

2011–12

He scored his first goal of the season on 24 September 2011, in an away game against Wigan Athletic.[48] The game ended in a 2–1 victory for Tottenham. He added his second and third goals of the season on 30 October with two goals against Queens Park Rangers in a 3–1 home win.[49] He continued his good form with the first goal in a 3–1 victory over Fulham the following week, whilst also setting up Aaron Lennon who made it 2–0 on the stroke of half time.[50] The first goal against Fulham was later ruled by the "dubious goals committee" to be an own goal by Chris Baird.[51]

On 3 December, Bale scored the first goal in Tottenham's 3–0 victory over Bolton Wanderers. He marked the goal with a tribute to Gary Speed by holding up his left boot, with "R.I.P Gary Speed" stitched on it, in front of the Bolton fans.[52] On 27 December, Bale scored twice to give Tottenham a 2–0 win against Norwich City.[53] On 5 January 2012, Bale was announced as one of the players voted into the UEFA Team of the Year 2011. He scored his third brace of the season as he scored twice against Wigan on 31 January to take his tally to ten goals for the season.[54] In January 2012 he was announced as the January Premier League Player of the Month for the second time in his career, after three goals and two assists in the Premier League for the month.[55]

Quite apart from his KCs, I make it that Bale's goals have been responsible for 18 points this season. Quite simply, he is indispensible. The one man we cant afford to lose.

Final point, at the end of last season we disintegrated and fell away badly. Funny that it coincided with Bales injuries. He was still the PFA Player of the year and in the Premiership team of the season. QED Jeremiah.

Bale is (of course) a phenomenal player, but equally, we had other injuries plus a CL campaign which contributed to 5th place (not to mention Harry's wobbles)...