Again, defensive players coming on doesn't mean that you have to go defensive by default
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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo
- Thread starter tommysvr
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Again, defensive players coming on doesn't mean that you have to go defensive by default
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
True
But the sub comments were bring on such and such to tighten the midfield
What was really needed was swapping out the whole defence or everyone just doing the basics they should be doing
Bishop
John Lacy
I personally would have gone defensive but I would have taken Johnson off for Bissouma/Sarr and moved Kulu out to the right wing to add some bustle to the wing where we were being destroyed and additional good possession (not a strength of Johnson's).
It may not have worked but it's not a defensive move but won that could have potentially stiffened the midfield and improved our possession at a trying time.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
We have seen ange do that before
But stiffening the midfield is defensive
Your literally trying to stop them attacking
I’m not anti it
What Ange would have liked iMO was a pressing option in attack
Also worth boring kulu wasnt completing his passes so Ange may have considered that and thought no
RunTMC
Steven Caulker
With a few days of thought i’m actually ok with what happened on Sunday. It was important that it happened. Ange probably thought this whole sexy thing was a load of nonsense.
We had to slap him across the face with it. Grab him by the collar and show him. “Do you see, man? Do you see what we’ve been telling you? This is what it looks like! In bright lights, in all its technicolour glory. This is our mentality. Ange, please you have to help us! Please get rid of it and end our suffering! We can’t take it anymore. Think of the children!”
All the talk about subs are all valid points and it would have been amazing if we got something out of the game. That would have kicked the deep focus on mentality down the road. But now it’s headline news that can’t be explained away with bad luck, injuries, VAR, or far superior opposition. The problem is deep and difficult. It’s why I’m willing to give Ange this season and even next season (relegation aside) to see if he can finally break this fever the club has been suffering from for years.
We had to slap him across the face with it. Grab him by the collar and show him. “Do you see, man? Do you see what we’ve been telling you? This is what it looks like! In bright lights, in all its technicolour glory. This is our mentality. Ange, please you have to help us! Please get rid of it and end our suffering! We can’t take it anymore. Think of the children!”
All the talk about subs are all valid points and it would have been amazing if we got something out of the game. That would have kicked the deep focus on mentality down the road. But now it’s headline news that can’t be explained away with bad luck, injuries, VAR, or far superior opposition. The problem is deep and difficult. It’s why I’m willing to give Ange this season and even next season (relegation aside) to see if he can finally break this fever the club has been suffering from for years.
Muttley
Ben Thatcher
Not sure anyone else has noticed yet, but there is an interesting trend appearing this season with subs. I believe that on every game we've won Ange has utilised all 5 subs. On every game we've lost he's only used either 3 or 4 subs. It does get you thinking that Ange believes that the eleven on the pitch have more chance of turning things back in our favour versus making personnel changes from the bench. That also implies that fresh legs have a lower attraction than his original 1st team choices.
Be interesting to see whether that trend continues over 20, 30, 40 games etc.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Could be right
It’s why I try not to second guess
For example we have no idea how fit a player is
seaside spur
Ronnie Rosenthal
Kulu disappeared up his own backside in that second half. With him and Maddison there , we got overrun when they turned up the press.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Well said and I think that matches well what Ange said post game. And also imo what some of the players have said.
I don't think this is a particularly Tottenham issue, I think it's quite common. But it's part of what separates us from the bigger and more successful clubs. And it's something that definitely needs addressing.
I also don't think it's warranted to be too harsh on the players (not saying you are). Even at the highest level (top leagues) truly elite mentality and consistency in that is rather rare. It's a difficult thing to develop and instill. We have a fairly young team, they have to be given the opportunity to learn, along with the demand to learn.
It's been an important part of the success of some of the best managers around. We perhaps had it for a while under Pochettino (debatable, but not really the debate for here and now), but mostly it's been something we haven't had. Along with most clubs most of the time.
Will be some interesting weeks to follow. Ange and the coaches for sure will demand better. But the proof and true development won't be in what is shown in the next couple of weeks. It will be in the consistency (or lack thereof) over time.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Not sure how many of the players would have been in "the red zone" from the start of the second half. Been a lot of games, but also quite a bit of rotation. Perhaps as I think you said in a different thread trying to prevent going into the red zone later in the game by conserving energy?
I think what you say about it being good news that we lost mirrors what Ange said post match about not wanting a false result and I agree.
I'm not sure it would have been subconsciously rejecting the system (we can't know for sure about unconscious stuff, even more so in others). To me it looks more like a "subconscious rejection" of the basics necessary no matter what system. The principle that no matter what your very best levels of focus, determination and energy is required. Every day, every game, every half. True professionalism, no matter what.
And that the players need to help each other with that. It's not just Ange or the coaches, it's not just the captain or vice captain or whoever wears the armband. It's on everyone.
Going on reporting that squad responsibility seems to be part of what Ange wants to develop. Not that he's shirking responsibility imo, but a realistic assessment that there's only so much a manager or coach can do, the players must do their part, all of them.
Mr Gogolak
Sean Davis
Another part of the problem is that the players have to be willing to learn that mentality. Regardless of his philosophy, Mourinho (and Conte but I think the problem was slightly different with him) had it. When he was sacked, Kane clearly implied that some players at the club were unable to adapt to his demands. That's how I read his comments anyway.
There could be a case for having older players at the club with such mentality, in the hope that it would spread to the rest of the squad and particularly the younger players. Buying Gullit, Vialli and others certainly did Chelsea a lot of good. On the other hand, United brought back Cristiano Ronalo, who probably is the poster boy for elite mentality and he didn't move the needle one bit (as far as I can tell).
It's probably a combination of a lot of factors (club culture, coaches, environment, etc.). Maybe a coach staying longer would help in that respect but it will take a lot more than not making any subs in a game we're losing to turn that around - at least, that's something we can agree on!
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Absolutely.
I think not making subs can be a part of it perhaps, but on it's own obviously not sufficient. But can perhaps be a part in helping the players really understand that they can't just look to Ange, the subs or a captain to help them out. They all have to look to themselves and each other.
I think having a more experienced "standard bearer" can help. Imo Hojbjerg provided some of that. As did Kane. As have others. That on it's own isn't enough either as we've seen repeatedly.
We've had players like Modric and Bale who for themselves had great mentality imo, but were still part of a non elite mentality as a group here. Go to Real Madrid and fit right in to a group with great mentality. That has to be built, developed, that takes time. It's not fixed by any one thing. We can point at managers, captains, leaders whatever and that is important. But for a truly great mentality to set in it has to be the squad as a whole.
For me (speculatively for sure) Ange's non substitution symbolises something important. The players have to learn, if not they will sink, somewhere, somehow. As they did in a limited way against Brighton. With that Ange too will sink of course. But that is the reality. There's only so much he can do if they don't learn/develop on this. A solid part of that responsibility has to be on them. Ange, imo, has to be willing to fail on this. He has to be "stubborn". Because if he is desperately trying to paper over the cracks and get "false results" he's trying to take the part of the responsibility that has to be on the players for them to develop on this.
I don't know if Ange is or can be a great manager in a big league. But to me, looking from the outside, he seems to be trying to instill what great managers are able to instill and what imo has been really important for their success.
I quite like also with this what was brought up on the pod. The initial meeting post game is for the players, not Ange and the coaches. They can't just look to him for solutions, they have to find solutions.
lurker of old
Gus Poyet
This "we lack elite mentality" may be true, but if Kulu and madders are outstanding attackers but don't have a defensive skillset and aptitude, then putting someone else on the pitch, who does have a defensive skillset, might help.
As for seeing this loss as somehow a positive part of the process....I admire your mental fortitude, but if we were to lose at home to West Ham, somehow I don't think the fans will be quite so equanimous about it...
As for seeing this loss as somehow a positive part of the process....I admire your mental fortitude, but if we were to lose at home to West Ham, somehow I don't think the fans will be quite so equanimous about it...
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
We know that Kulusevski and Maddison are well capable of defending better than they did in that second half. We've seen in repeatedly.
Most learning and development includes set backs, disappointment and frustration. At least difficult learning and development. We don't know yet if this will be a part of a positive process, but I would expect a positive process to include experiences like this.
Fans will have different opinions for sure. And if results and performances disappoint over time the pressure on Ange will grow, no doubt. And people will continue to question what does. Wouldn't expect anything else.
At some point that may reach a point of no return and he too will be sacked. To me we are not close to that now. I admire his approach and attempts (what I can understand of them at least) and probably will continue to.
Part of the criticism against him has been that it's just the same flaws over and over again and little signs of improvement. I don't see it like that. I think we're mostly finding new ways to fail and in a way that's a good thing.
Bishop
John Lacy
I don't agree that stiffening the midfield is necessarily a defensive move. My version of it regains control of the midfield and regains the platform to attack. I'm not suggesting we then sit deep and start playing on the counter.
A moot point because Ange didn't do this or any version of these kind ideas and we consequently saw the end result.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
The result was coming long before he could have to would have made the changes
The lack of effort in that pitch was horrendous
Bishop
John Lacy
He could have made changes after the 1st goal. That may well have rescued the 3 points or maybe even a point.
Doing nothing as we now know definitely led to 0 points. I'm just hopeful that he learns and adjusts more quickly in future.
Bishop
John Lacy
I think mentality is just one part of it. Obviously after Sunday the whole fan base is screaming about a lack of mental toughness and I agree there is probably some truth to that but is such an esoteric evaluation and honestly one that only comes up when we win it lose.
Win and it's "proof" of a good mentality, lose and it's the opposite. When the reality is from the outside we have no real way to evaluate. I see people arguing that Romero wasn't vocal enough but we had Hojberg previously who was super vocal and that didn't work either.
I think people are searching for answers in areas that have no real answer or are not the solution. Roy Keane for example was a great example of vocal leadership until he wasn't and then he was considered a bully.
I like your example of Cristiano Ronaldo as he is to all intents and purposes the poster child for winning mentality at all cost but like you say that didn't work at United, it didn't galvanise their squad and even their young players, some of whom idolise him.
I think the reality is the result on Sunday is more than just mentality or a lack of it, more than just leadership or a lack of it. It's a combination of those things, the system, the attitude, the tactical approach we have, the technical quality of the players etc. Would having Roy Keane on the pitch on Sunday make difference if he had all those intrinsic leadership qualities that he possessed but the footballing skills of Sissoko?
For me no, because what I saw was a failing in our system and our players. Sure we were fantastic in the first half but a game is more than 45 minutes. Ange has to have a deep look and think about his approach because as it is, we are inconsistent and he doesn't have the relative level of superiority of player to just go out and play and not react to the opposition, especially if they are specifically targeting our weaker points to
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
And doing something may have lead to nothing too, especially with the effort having dropped
We don’t know
Abs now we will have lots of speculation because of this fudging international break
Muttley
Ben Thatcher
I'm not sure the red zone works exactly how you explain it, relating to when your activity is in the high heart rate zones.
This older article is intriguing - https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/2223889/2020/11/29/klopp-liverpool-red-zone/
I think it is more the case that Ange's way is to have these really intense training sessions along with the games that come thick and fast. So whilst we see rotation in games, that isn't the only indicator of why players intensity is dropping.
It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an Ange team look devoid of energy, even when we've seen them have a whole week off.