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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo
- Thread starter tommysvr
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thfcsteff
Garth Crooks
Answers below mate...
He is a great player overall, but for me, his passing out/carrying was too slow. He can be such a catalyst for us in these matches.
Agreed on Sonny, Maddison won't ever be that and I think Bentancur is frankly not quite going to be of the material though I see the thought there
Deki did bust a gut
Totally agree
Saka and Trossard did great work, but had we played out faster from the back/challenged with a few more long balls from Vic to mix up the approach, they were there for the taking. Maddison started dropping too deep in a match where it was unecessary IMO; if the defense/Bentancur are a little quicker then Maddison can stay further up and be the architect. Johnson and Son need the ball early as we know. I think Odobert's decision making is still developing; he nearly cost us when he was on FWIW.
I'd have had Bergvall on for sure. Personally Gray too, again just for energy and momentum. Bergvall is brave and somewhat fearless to my eye, albeit still growing.
He is a great player overall, but for me, his passing out/carrying was too slow. He can be such a catalyst for us in these matches.
Agreed on Sonny, Maddison won't ever be that and I think Bentancur is frankly not quite going to be of the material though I see the thought there
Deki did bust a gut
Totally agree
Saka and Trossard did great work, but had we played out faster from the back/challenged with a few more long balls from Vic to mix up the approach, they were there for the taking. Maddison started dropping too deep in a match where it was unecessary IMO; if the defense/Bentancur are a little quicker then Maddison can stay further up and be the architect. Johnson and Son need the ball early as we know. I think Odobert's decision making is still developing; he nearly cost us when he was on FWIW.
I'd have had Bergvall on for sure. Personally Gray too, again just for energy and momentum. Bergvall is brave and somewhat fearless to my eye, albeit still growing.
Legohamster
Ian Walker
I don't think the reaction is on the first 4 games alone, it's the hang over from last season and results, then you add in the same mistakes/issues repeating themselves.
If you asked people to guess how Sunday would have played out before the game - lots of ball, not many clear cut chances and done from a set play would have featured highly in the responses.
I'd like to see gray / berg / dragon starting v Brentford.
That's because he left early in the season to take over Australia and won with them instead.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
Dude I actually 100% agree. It's annoying when people keep comparing Ange tto Arteta, or Klopp or any of the other various coaches. It's such an irrelevant discussion to my mind.
We are Spurs and Ange is Ange, it's not going to be successful or unsuccessful just because it worked or didn't work at a different club with a different context. We can only look at our own circumstance and evaluate how it is progressing. For me tbh I'm do not finding it particularly surprising because I had some obvious concerns that I endlessly spoke about during the summer. So as always the sky isn't falling but frustratingly for me the form, performances and results have been all to predictable but I do think they were avoidable if we had correctly addressed the weaknesses in the summer imo.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
It gives him leeway but he has to deliver something know after £600m and a number of years
Bishop
Nick Barmby
Tbh I don't care, I'm not an Arsenal fan.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
I’m not It for our fans to laud their achievements which are negligible i think it’s fair to reference why
I dong think there is a regularly consistently challenger in any league where the manager hasn’t had time
There are freaks like Lestah and Leverkusen last year but in reality you need time and money. We’re spending money but if we don’t give the guy time too we’re back to the drawing board. Our peers who have genuinely progressed have given the guy in charge time and backing. Arteta is the most relevant example as outside of pep and the petro $$$ they are the nearest we have to a peer
Baleforce
Les Bennett
yeah, but, technically...
thfcsteff
Garth Crooks
It feels to me like this summer is the vital window for us to find out if Ange is going to be backed or not. At the three year mark, Arteta was given Declan Rice. He was also backed on the keeper front, even though everyone thought he was bonkers. Ange has yet to be given a signing as important to him and his system as Rice is to Arsenal. I think Arteta also had Odegaard and Saka in place, which made his task a little easier. We spend money but there is always a keen eye on the potential business return. Not saying that is a bad thing, but since the debacle which saw us sign two big players for Poch and then sack him, we have been more prudent. Again I understand the parameters as to why that might be, but the truth is that Ange's style needs incredibly talented, dedicated and near-faultless players. I don't think Pep would be Emirates Marketing Project'ing everything with Bissouma, Johnson and Maddison (again NOT knocking them, all really good players but not the elite of elite)...I think one or two world class signings in key positions would be enough. The defence looks overall great. I think we agree on the two areas where we really, really need world class (FWIW I think if we got those players, our wide options would be fine)...
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.
For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.
He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.
The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.
You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?
So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.
Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.
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Mikey10
Steffen Iversen
Outstanding post.
Re the OTT criticisms of Ange, that depends on where you look? here, reasonably balanced, on general social media? it's absolutely over the top, he's been found out, gone by December, etc.
We challenged for top 4 last season? (missed by 2 points), I suspect will do the same this season, we pretty much have with the exception of a couple of seasons in the last 16-18 years.
I do fundamentally agree with he is at risk (every manager is, 2nd season to your point is telling), I don't think the risk is what is was for Poch/Harry/others. Yes, he has been backed, in more ways than money, but the design of that backing (players like Wilson, Gray, Bergvall, etc.) indicate there is much more of a multi-year view on the timeline than in the past.
My personal view is there is a difference for me between the games we struggled in last season and the start of this season, stats and eye test say we deserved more than we have got this season, in 10 games if that doesn't correct, it doesn't really matter but it is context on the view that this run is since November.
Grays_1890
Barry Daines
Agree with this TBH
I also don't get the "credit in the bank" argument, I find that largely arrogant to who we are and what we have failed to achieve in 60+ years TBH.
We ain't Liverpool with over a dozen league wins and half a dozen or so CL wins, we have flattered to deceive for as long as my memory back to maybe 86 remembers so if anyone needs credit in bank with managers and to give someone the time to change the club its actually us TBH.
It's a dangerous rhetoric that almost doomed to fail, new manager of higher ilk and reputation comes in and fails to hit his straps straight away or inbed his vision, what we saying? No credit in bank. Get rid....the merry-go-round continues.
As I say, things are not visibly that bad on or off the pitch that make me worry to my boots yet and like you I don't particularly see the same issues as last year, I certainly don't see a side AS defensively exposed, I do see a side that's slightly toothless in attack currently but we have been the better side in 3 out of 4 games IMO, the NLD was an equal split, its certainly not toys out the pram time yet.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
Well worth looking at Poch second season start again
It’s not good
It’s actually awful
But he turned it around
And you really think we haven’t made wholesale changes to personnel???
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
To some extent, yes. But also to some extent no imo.
Yes we conceded from a set piece. For the first time this season while mostly defending them well in this game and in games this season. Is that the same issue repeating itself, or is that just sometimes you concede from set pieces even if you've improved?
A big part of the critical narrative around us has been our weaknesses at defending against counter attacks and when our press gets played through. Against Arsenal that was barely an issue at all. Same issue repeating itself?
So far this season we've struggled with chance creation and somewhat with taking our chances. That was an issue at times in the second half of last season, but wasn't the persistent problem that led to our poor results, that was more the problems above.
Very small margins and we either beat or draw that game. Would the "same issues repeating themselves" argument be made then?
Particularly over a small sample size I think looking at performances rather than results is more helpful. Imo our performances have been rather good. Not great, but better than a lot of what we saw in the second half of last season.
Improve our chance creation even by a relatively small amount and these four games would probably have gone rather differently.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
Even a total helm like this can see it