Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

That's the interesting perspective on the window, lots of commentary of did we improve?

Royal at FB being replaced by Spence
Royal/Davies at CB being replaced by Dragusin
Skipp replaced by Gray
GLC replaced by Bergvall
Solomon replaced by Wilson
No backup CF being replaced by Solanke, Richi becoming the backup CF

The gaps would be -> experience of PEH not replaced, GLC more proven than Bergvall (albeit barely played)

Hard to say the squad hasn't improved, even minus the refresh and value of younger legs in this system.

Oh people claim it’s not improved because we have lost experience … again it suits some people’s agendas or ideals
Utter balls IMO
Experience means nothing if you can’t play the right way and Ange knows that
The players we have brought in are all technically more suited to the way we wanna play and that’s a big step forward

 

[Mikey10]

That's the interesting perspective on the window, lots of commentary of did we improve?

Royal at FB being replaced by Spence
Royal/Davies at CB being replaced by Dragusin
Skipp replaced by Gray
GLC replaced by Bergvall
Solomon replaced by Wilson
No backup CF being replaced by Solanke, Richi becoming the backup CF

The gaps would be -> experience of PEH not replaced, GLC more proven than Bergvall (albeit barely played)

Hard to say the squad hasn't improved, even minus the refresh and value of younger legs in this system.

Hard to make any judgements, given that Gray, Bergvall and Dragusin are all unproven as yet. Spence has had a chequered time with us so far, to put a kind spin on it. Solanke has had one good PL season so far in a career which has run a fair while now. Odobert played reasonably in a team which were relegated.

Plenty of promise, for sure - but we were saying the same not that long ago about others we’ve now got rid of.

 

[Muttley]

The reason for excluding the first 10 games is that there is a phenomenon called "regression to mean" which, it can be justifiably argued, could apply to Ange regarding the fast start last year. It could be argued that he caught people by surprise, everything went in our favour but what is undeniable is that that 10 game run was a complete outlier compared to the 32 games that followed. It's justifiable to examine his record omitting those 10 games to make an argument but, wherever I've done that, I've been very explicit about it.

Reminds me of Conte in the 17/18 season with that 3-4-3. No PL team were prepared for that system. At least in Jan 2018, Poch matched him up with his own version of 3-4-3. Dele's brace did the rest. Regardless, that was a disruptive season by Conte. You'd never worry about Conte after that though. It was just the same playbook.

For me, Pep is the biggest disruptor. When you think you can counteract his tactical system, he moves it and disrupts you. He's done it for years. That is what we need from Ange if he is to be successful.

 

[Grays_1890]

I'll let @Grays_1890 defend himself wrt your first line.

You indeed wouldn't recruit Mourinho without a plan to splash the cash...but, then again you also wouldn't sack a specialist in cup finals on the eve of a cup final....so....

Haha, its cool, not here to police this place and if people wanna believe it or not TBH and I am cool with @Bedfordspurs

I m no ITK whatsoever, been lucky to have been give three bits of info in 20 odd years because people I know have been in right place at right time to tell me about it and all three were spot on. Its cool, you know you share that stuff with a fair level of faith and also know people will rightly be cynical with it. I have still got a DM box full of abuse and or thanks for when I said on here Redknapp was being binned two months before it happened because a mate as Setanta (remember them) was in a studio when his manager gobbed off about there being a take it or leave it pay off on the table.

Anyway I am on a three week work tour of Asia so and what I do know is its bloody hot haha.

YIDS

 

[metalgear]

Did Arteta show clear improvement?
I mean their fans wanted him gone second season, they finished 8th and out of Europe. They actually went backwards by standing still. And that was despite ah big an outstanding start

What he has had the benefit of is time
Same thing Klopp got

Well to me they did. I watched a lot of Arsenal games as I covet some of their players - odegaard, martinez and recently raya who i've thought would become top players. In the first two years you can see Arsenal enforcing a style and recruiting new players heavily. They build from the back but you could see a style of play forming but lots of individual mistakes from a young team. Then like pool, spend heavily on the remaining pieces Van Dijk, Rice, Sanchez etc. to complete the team. Systematic and clear progress.

Agree that they both got time and I support Ange staying until he gets the right players for him to have the necessary players to play angeball. This will another 1-2 years. But i don't think Ange should be immune from criticism in Year 2. Much like arteta was and has come out better for it.

 

[metalgear]

Improvement year on year seems like a decent benchmark.

We were much better last season than we were the season before. Let's see how far we can get this season.

For the record I believe that getting 5th again is progress. Getting used to additional European games takes a strain on players and staff. A negative of Ange's management style is that he is a lone wolf coach and doesn't have an entourage that he is familiar with. That means the key supporting staff, including two new coaches recruited, are going to have lots of meetings to understand each other and coordinate with each other.

 

[braineclipse]

I think it’s valid, for the sake of argument, to pull out the first 10 games. There is a consistency to the results from November last year. The first 10 games are an outlier because there is no other sequence of 10 games that yielded that many points or near it and it could be argued that it was a combination of new manager bounce and sides being caught by surprise.

A selection of 32 consecutive league games, albeit across two seasons, is statistically significant.

Did the analysis with the first choice back 4 if you have a look back. Doesn’t make nearly as much difference as you’d think which all points to a defensively flawed system. It’s also reaching if you have to say “well, we’ll be fine as long as we have our goalkeeper and first choice back 4”. We’d need Woolwich level luck with injuries and suspensions.

If a quarter of a data set is an outlier you don't have a good data set.

I agree that 32 games is a decent sample. But I also think 3 games into a new season is not a good point to evaluate if there's been a change. Particularly if the metrics are goals, xG etc.

Similarly we were poor at defensive set pieces in the second half of last season. Look better now I think. But too early to evaluate.


I think 2-3 moments have massively negatively influenced our results so far this season. I guess it could be argued that this continues the trend from last season. Personally I see improvements in performances. And I see a team that's still not seeing the team benefits of the transfer window. Let's see how it looks after 10-15 games. Particularly before using stats based arguments.

 

[DeanoAustin]

If a quarter of a data set is an outlier you don't have a good data set.

I agree that 32 games is a decent sample. But I also think 3 games into a new season is not a good point to evaluate if there's been a change. Particularly if the metrics are goals, xG etc.

Similarly we were poor at defensive set pieces in the second half of last season. Look better now I think. But too early to evaluate.


I think 2-3 moments have massively negatively influenced our results so far this season. I guess it could be argued that this continues the trend from last season. Personally I see improvements in performances. And I see a team that's still not seeing the team benefits of the transfer window. Let's see how it looks after 10-15 games. Particularly before using stats based arguments.

And I think that’s fair comment. @Bedfordspurs made the same point - let’s give it 10 games or so before starting to make any judgements on this season which I think is fair.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The fans will have a huge say on what happens imo
The club IMO will stick with him if the noise doesn’t get bad

Not convinced. Pochettino, who had far more credit in the bank (or at least should've done) was sacked without there being any real clamour for that to happen from the fans (certainly not anything significant anyway). Maybe the powers that be at the club have changed, I for one hope they have learned a lesson anyway. However, I wouldn't bet on it. Fingers crossed our results pick up and we don't have to find out.

 

[DubSpur]

Not convinced. Pochettino, who had far more credit in the bank (or at least should've done) was sacked without there being any real clamour for that to happen from the fans (certainly not anything significant anyway). Maybe the powers that be at the club have changed, I for one hope they have learned a lesson anyway. However, I wouldn't bet on it. Fingers crossed our results pick up and we don't have to find out.

Poch didn't want to be here, it wasn't just a case of Levy panicking and sacking him.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Poch didn't want to be here, it wasn't just a case of Levy panicking and sacking him.

Kind of getting away from the point which was that there seems to be a feeling it’s our fans that lead to managers getting sacked when more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy. The last time there was real prolonged unhappiness with the manager was George Graham.

 

[DubSpur]

Kind of getting away from the point which was that there seems to be a feeling it’s our fans that lead to managers getting sacked when more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy. The last time there was real prolonged unhappiness with the manager was George Graham.

There's normally more than one reason why a manager is sacked, obviously results being the big one.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Not convinced. Pochettino, who had far more credit in the bank (or at least should've done) was sacked without there being any real clamour for that to happen from the fans (certainly not anything significant anyway). Maybe the powers that be at the club have changed, I for one hope they have learned a lesson anyway. However, I wouldn't bet on it. Fingers crossed our results pick up and we don't have to find out.

They have changed the football leadership have massively

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well to me they did. I watched a lot of Arsenal games as I covet some of their players - odegaard, martinez and recently raya who i've thought would become top players. In the first two years you can see Arsenal enforcing a style and recruiting new players heavily. They build from the back but you could see a style of play forming but lots of individual mistakes from a young team. Then like pool, spend heavily on the remaining pieces Van Dijk, Rice, Sanchez etc. to complete the team. Systematic and clear progress.

Agree that they both got time and I support Ange staying until he gets the right players for him to have the necessary players to play angeball. This will another 1-2 years. But i don't think Ange should be immune from criticism in Year 2. Much like arteta was and has come out better for it.

No manager should be immune from criticism
But the reaction after 3 games form some is incredibly odd

 

[Jurgen the German]

There's normally more than one reason why a manager is sacked, obviously results being the big one.

I agree, but more often than not I would say it’s more down to the club getting panicky or just wanting a change than it is the fans making the manager’s job untenable.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Poch didn't want to be here, it wasn't just a case of Levy panicking and sacking him.

There were a lot of factors behind it and I think one of the biggest was Jose flashing Levy a bit of leg. Ironically, that was one of the times when Levy behaved more like a fan than a businessman because I'm pretty sure he, like me, thought he was pretty much guaranteeing a trophy with Jose.

 

[Jurgen the German]

There were a lot of factors behind it and I think one of the biggest was Jose flashing Levy a bit of leg. Ironically, that was one of the times when Levy behaved more like a fan than a businessman because I'm pretty sure he, like me, thought he was pretty much guaranteeing a trophy with Jose.

He looked star struck by Jose in the Amazon documentary.

 

[Grays_1890]

Not convinced. Pochettino, who had far more credit in the bank (or at least should've done) was sacked without there being any real clamour for that to happen from the fans (certainly not anything significant anyway). Maybe the powers that be at the club have changed, I for one hope they have learned a lesson anyway. However, I wouldn't bet on it. Fingers crossed our results pick up and we don't have to find out.

At games, no, absolutely agreed, online which I imagine is used as some barometer by clubs too, he was being hounded by many. Not sure it adds up to the sack, I think Levy ultimately got twitchy, but he was def losing credit with some. Ange is getting ALOT of negative noise online now which is a shame after just one year in which I think he has been largely important to us on and off the pitch, but thats the game these days I suppose

 

[tommysvr]

Kind of getting away from the point which was that there seems to be a feeling it’s our fans that lead to managers getting sacked when more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy. The last time there was real prolonged unhappiness with the manager was George Graham.

You keep persisting with this lie?

OMT * Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City *

Not really up to the fans. I think most will accept how things go as long as it’s clear we’re going in the right direction. I’m more concerned with the owners/chairman than the fans with regards to patience. I mean...right, that's pretty obvious. Did you think I thought the fans would sack...

www.glory-glory.co.uk

 

[Jurgen the German]

You keep persisting with this lie?

OMT * Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City *

Not really up to the fans. I think most will accept how things go as long as it’s clear we’re going in the right direction. I’m more concerned with the owners/chairman than the fans with regards to patience. I mean...right, that's pretty obvious. Did you think I thought the fans would sack...

www.glory-glory.co.uk

Why is it a lie? Because you disagree with it? There was zero fan pressure on Levy to sack Poch, Harry, Jose, Conte or Jol. Granted there are other factors but it wasn’t the fans who sacked those managers. I suspect you want to shift the blame away from Levy to the fans for whatever reason.