Virgin Mary, The Nativity and Me Too

[Grays_1890]

There's a difference between being wrong and being stupid. Smart people all over the place can be wrong about a myriad of things, including religious beliefs.

Getting indoctrinated into religious belief doesn't make one stupid.

Equating the two is a disservice to stupid people, non stupid people, religious people and non religious people. People, all people, are only to some extent rational.

Unless the conclusion is "all people are stupid", in which case I kind of agree, but the term pretty much loses value at that point.

I agree and I want to be clear on my side I don't hate on or think those that believe in it are stupid because as you have said and I said early its clear that religion is a success because of its early years indoctrination.

People also find religion as a faith for a number of reasons and find comfort because they struggle with life and for the answer so I get that too, alot of humans need that.

My problem is the literally version and those that still peddle it as the absolute truth and do so to control the idea that if you don't agree you go to hell and if you are a good follower you are allowed into the club, I mean please. Being born into a relaxed Jewish family, thankfully, I also have a major problem for example with the idea that in 2022 we allow a religion to continue to cut off male babies' foreskins before the poor kid gets a choice, for me it blows my mind that kind of thing still happens and people just go with it because, hey its their religious belief. Well that may well be, but is it the kids belief? But then again if you wait till the kids of a rational age to decide the success rate for recruitment dramatically reduces.

 

[glasgowspur]

There's a difference between being wrong and being stupid. Smart people all over the place can be wrong about a myriad of things, including religious beliefs.

Getting indoctrinated into religious belief doesn't make one stupid.

Equating the two is a disservice to stupid people, non stupid people, religious people and non religious people. People, all people, are only to some extent rational.

Unless the conclusion is "all people are stupid", in which case I kind of agree, but the term pretty much loses value at that point.

Everybody is stupid about something, just like everybody is smart about something.
It just isn't always obvious.

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree and I want to be clear on my side I don't hate on or think those that believe in it are stupid because as you have said and I said early its clear that religion is a success because of its early years indoctrination.

People also find religion as a faith for a number of reasons and find comfort because they struggle with life and for the answer so I get that too, alot of humans need that.

My problem is the literally version and those that still peddle it as the absolute truth and do so to control the idea that if you don't agree you go to hell and if you are a good follower you are allowed into the club, I mean please. Being born into a relaxed Jewish family, thankfully, I also have a major problem for example with the idea that in 2022 we allow a religion to continue to cut off male babies' foreskins before the poor kid gets a choice, for me it blows my mind that kind of thing still happens and people just go with it because, hey its their religious belief. Well that may well be, but is it the kids belief? But then again if you wait till the kids of a rational age to decide the success rate for recruitment dramatically reduces.

I've known some absolutely amazing people that are very devout and I've seen how much help their faith brings them in lives bad time, i think that is fantastic and if truth be told at times I've sort of envied them that.
But i just don't have it in me to believe something i can't prove.

 

[Grays_1890]

I've known some absolutely amazing people that are very devout and I've seen how much help their faith brings them in lives bad time, i think that is fantastic and if truth be told at times I've sort of envied them that.
But i just don't have it in me to believe something i can't prove.

Despite my old man being albeit a none practising Jew my mum was always an atheist until my bro ended up in court in the 90s for stealing some cash from work, my mum found christianity then and swore if he got off she would continue, he did and she goes to church every weekend is really involved. Although I have issue with the logic of that I also see the comfort of faith which she has garnered from it.

At risk of sounding like a broken record which I know I do on here sometimes, the issue I have is when like in Qatar, religion is used as the basis for exclusion for actual living humans because of archaic religious beliefs, trying to rationalise what makes them a better human and therefore reach another level when they are no longer on earth, surely you should be worrying about your actions when you are actually here. As I have said its mental manipulation of the masses to think a certain way with a promise of better, regardless what hurt or issues it causes.

 

[spurspinter1]

I agree 100% with this part, people would find something else

As for the greater power, there is, its science and the science of the universe which we discover is the truth hour by hour, day by day. As I mentioned earlier, the idea there is someone no one can see, who may be the greater power is just one of religions conveniences but its run out of legs in my opinion. And as they say, its not on those that don't believe to prove its on those selling the story.

And look I agree that belief gave purpose and probably kept an order when it came to explaining why the sun rises in the morning, where it goes in the night and to explain planetary formation to folks who's brains did not even include the concept of Space, but now, for me, organised religion proves to be archaiac and act as a suppresion of rational thought and expression, almost manipulative (refer to my previous post of the idea that if you don't follow the pillars of said religion you go to the pointy tailed guy in the ground)

My old lecturer said it best for me, those that have a literal belief in religion as the answer are liken to those that say they have a million point when they don't, they are either lying to others or they believe they have it and in fact they are lying to themselves, either way it's a lie.

Its a genuine shame that religion has effectively created an obsession of what came before and what might come after detracting from the here and now, there are real people, real experiences and moments of real joy that people genuinely prefer to hate, ignore and take an adverse view on because of their religious views and how what might come after their time here and now if they embrace them, thats the real shame.

We apply rational thought to our day to day lives, visit qualified Drs, question the legitimacy of claims, ask for proof, ask for receipts, weigh up pros and cons and have a naturally scepticism for things we are told every day of our lives, but with religion, people just abandon the same level of rational thought.

Science versus GHod as if both can't exist simultaneously is a certain style of thinking where it always ends in the same debate, without faith there is no point in religion as if there was concrete evidence we'd all know which one was the "right" one. What you deem as science could very well be a Hansel and Gretel breadcrumb trail set out by a deity (or numerous deities) to humble us in the end but it's not provable, which is kind of the point anyway.

Appreciate that a lot of what you've posted is a follow on and not a direct response to my post but I want to make clear I don't think Organised religion is necessarily a good thing but also have respect when it is used in a positive way, it comes back full circle to earlier debate re Father Christmas - If kids are only behaving well to get presents at Christmas from the reindeer driven sleigh that's a worry - It's also a shame if people only behave "well" to get a ticket in to heaven, but if it makes the world a bit more bearable it's a interesting trade off + one of the religions could legitimately be right and based in divine truth, however unlikely it is...

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I hate religion and have chosen not to pursue close friendship with people who are religious or worse still, spiritual.

Was raised Catholic so am given free reign to say what I like. If you are religious you are thick boarding on departed. So thick that by believing in GHod, you are thicker then me. Let that sink you religious nuts, you are thicker then me.

Get rid of religion and the Royal family and this country improves over night.

You had a brick catholic education if you think you've a free reign to say what you like, we were all born with original sin and if we don't do what we're told we're all going to burn in hell for eternity, confession counts for fudge all if you don't repent as we will all be judged on judgement day.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

You had a brick catholic education if you think you've a free reign to say what you like, we were all born with original sin and if we don't do what we're told we're all going to burn in hell for eternity, confession counts for fudge all if you don't repent as we will all be judged on judgement day.

Reminds me of a business trip to somewhere in Texas many years ago. I ended up with the same taxi driver ferrying me between hotel and office, and then back to the airport. On the airport trip, we were chatting and he asked if I was married to which I replied 'well no, but as good as'. Cue an interrogation as to why my other half wouldn't marry me, finishing with "it's better to marry, than burn in hell". Which taken at face value I couldn't really argue with, but was quite glad when we eventually reached the airport.

 

[Grays_1890]

Science versus GHod as if both can't exist simultaneously is a certain style of thinking where it always ends in the same debate, without faith there is no point in religion as if there was concrete evidence we'd all know which one was the "right" one. What you deem as science could very well be a Hansel and Gretel breadcrumb trail set out by a deity (or numerous deities) to humble us in the end but it's not provable, which is kind of the point anyway.

Appreciate that a lot of what you've posted is a follow on and not a direct response to my post but I want to make clear I don't think Organised religion is necessarily a good thing but also have respect when it is used in a positive way, it comes back full circle to earlier debate re Father Christmas - If kids are only behaving well to get presents at Christmas from the reindeer driven sleigh that's a worry - It's also a shame if people only behave "well" to get a ticket in to heaven, but if it makes the world a bit more bearable it's a interesting trade off + one of the religions could legitimately be right and based in divine truth, however unlikely it is...

I agree with alot of what you have said however science is the constant search for the truth and as part of that many discoveries be that of medicine or physics of flying a plane are proven and we make discoveries every day. If we all somehow had our brains wiped and had to start again from pre certain discoveries we would eventually discover them again because the law of physics exists, its however unlikely people would discover religion in the same forms as they have as we know them.

On your last paragraph I would say that a yearly festival where people are thankful for their lives and the year gone is healthy, I especially think it based on what we have had to endure recently and how hard life is, not so much the clamour for toys if you are good per say, however the difference between a clamour for toys if good and people wanting to reach the pearly gates is that most kids grow out of that by the age they are 7+ the same can't be said of religion. But that said somewhat contradictory, like I have said previously, I have no issue with people using faith as a reason to get up in the morning and exist or plough in life, you do what you have to do. My issue is more the way in which organised religion acts as an oppression on rational thought often mutilates mind and body and can be used as a tool for hate under the guise of a phoney yet convenient GHod.

Interesting discussion though and as always your posts evoke paradoxical thoughts in my own beliefs on the subject, nice one fella

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

You had a brick catholic education if you think you've a free reign to say what you like, we were all born with original sin and if we don't do what we're told we're all going to burn in hell for eternity, confession counts for fudge all if you don't repent as we will all be judged on judgement day.

Which is why I said in the post your talking about, if I repent. Literally said the word repent.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Which is why I said in the post your talking about, if I repent. Literally said the word repent.

Not in the one I read, I agree with your views on religion, but being brought up (beat up) as a catholic I've have that great burden burnt into my soul, perhaps I'm not a strong enough person to drive the brain washing away and just have to live with that guilt it has gifted me.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Not in the one I read, I agree with your views on religion, but being brought up (beat up) as a catholic I've have that great burden burnt into my soul, perhaps I'm not a strong enough person to drive the brain washing away and just have to live with that guilt it has gifted me.

Get a chop on your shoulder like me. I have literally shouted and spat on the ground every time I walk past a church.

 

[spurspinter1]

I agree with alot of what you have said however science is the constant search for the truth and as part of that many discoveries be that of medicine or physics of flying a plane are proven and we make discoveries every day. If we all somehow had our brains wiped and had to start again from pre certain discoveries we would eventually discover them again because the law of physics exists, its however unlikely people would discover religion in the same forms as they have as we know them.

On your last paragraph I would say that a yearly festival where people are thankful for their lives and the year gone is healthy, I especially think it based on what we have had to endure recently and how hard life is, not so much the clamour for toys if you are good per say, however the difference between a clamour for toys if good and people wanting to reach the pearly gates is that most kids grow out of that by the age they are 7+ the same can't be said of religion. But that said somewhat contradictory, like I have said previously, I have no issue with people using faith as a reason to get up in the morning and exist or plough in life, you do what you have to do. My issue is more the way in which organised religion acts as an oppression on rational thought often mutilates mind and body and can be used as a tool for hate under the guise of a phoney yet convenient GHod.

Interesting discussion though and as always your posts evoke paradoxical thoughts in my own beliefs on the subject, nice one fella

Right back you mate, good to have an open discussion in good faith (not sure if there is a pun in the use of the word faith here considering the subject!)

Absolutely with you on the science being the search for the truth, it's a constant process of trial and error and ideally is moving in the right direction, however there could be a discovery tomorrow that renders the laws of physics as we know them to be as silly as a flat earth or the moon being made out of cheese etc That's a big "could"of course and it's more of the accepting we may know absolutely nothing which is more of a philosophy point than science I suppose.

It could be argued that we'd have advanced much quicker if there was less building churches / places of worship or sacrifices to various Gods and more building hospitals but I would be lying if I haven't found solace in a church from one time or another so ever the hypocrite sitting on the fence I shall remain

I always like the idea of there being a GHod, with a reasonable (yes very subjective of course!) set of moral guide lines left on some stones or plates etc who deceitfully disproves his / hers / it's own existence and then sees who suddenly starts pillaging / destroying / returning to primal instincts out of a feeling of betrayal, for the GHod to then re-appear to say "Well if you were only doing it for the reward it wasn't real faith / love" but that may be my warped mind mixing parables / theology / fiction.

Christmas is an odd one, I've had happier ones in hospitals or shady squats with down and outers self medicating with various substances than in an affluent, warm (in temperature at least) environment with loadsa presents, a deluge of food etc etc I was and still am pretty damn materialistic / ego driven so I can't pretend I don't want stuff but the waste culture and inequality gets me. Not that you have suggested I'm out to kill the magic / joy in the little ones but it's a tough one, Christmas was everything to me at a younger age but in an unhealthy way, but battling against the "evils" of capitalism / advertising isn't the healthiest approach either so as always it's a balance!

 

[Grays_1890]

Right back you mate, good to have an open discussion in good faith (not sure if there is a pun in the use of the word faith here considering the subject!)

Absolutely with you on the science being the search for the truth, it's a constant process of trial and error and ideally is moving in the right direction, however there could be a discovery tomorrow that renders the laws of physics as we know them to be as silly as a flat earth or the moon being made out of cheese etc That's a big "could"of course and it's more of the accepting we may know absolutely nothing which is more of a philosophy point than science I suppose.

It could be argued that we'd have advanced much quicker if there was less building churches / places of worship or sacrifices to various Gods and more building hospitals but I would be lying if I haven't found solace in a church from one time or another so ever the hypocrite sitting on the fence I shall remain

I always like the idea of there being a GHod, with a reasonable (yes very subjective of course!) set of moral guide lines left on some stones or plates etc who deceitfully disproves his / hers / it's own existence and then sees who suddenly starts pillaging / destroying / returning to primal instincts out of a feeling of betrayal, for the GHod to then re-appear to say "Well if you were only doing it for the reward it wasn't real faith / love" but that may be my warped mind mixing parables / theology / fiction.

Christmas is an odd one, I've had happier ones in hospitals or shady squats with down and outers self medicating with various substances than in an affluent, warm (in temperature at least) environment with loadsa presents, a deluge of food etc etc I was and still am pretty damn materialistic / ego driven so I can't pretend I don't want stuff but the waste culture and inequality gets me. Not that you have suggested I'm out to kill the magic / joy in the little ones but it's a tough one, Christmas was everything to me at a younger age but in an unhealthy way, but battling against the "evils" of capitalism / advertising isn't the healthiest approach either so as always it's a balance!

Yeh I am not against he idea of a GHod if it was genuine especially as the idea that the universe is infinite and it would offer an answer to the question of the ages.

 

[DTA]

Right back you mate, good to have an open discussion in good faith (not sure if there is a pun in the use of the word faith here considering the subject!)

Absolutely with you on the science being the search for the truth, it's a constant process of trial and error and ideally is moving in the right direction, however there could be a discovery tomorrow that renders the laws of physics as we know them to be as silly as a flat earth or the moon being made out of cheese etc That's a big "could"of course and it's more of the accepting we may know absolutely nothing which is more of a philosophy point than science I suppose.

It could be argued that we'd have advanced much quicker if there was less building churches / places of worship or sacrifices to various Gods and more building hospitals but I would be lying if I haven't found solace in a church from one time or another so ever the hypocrite sitting on the fence I shall remain

I always like the idea of there being a GHod, with a reasonable (yes very subjective of course!) set of moral guide lines left on some stones or plates etc who deceitfully disproves his / hers / it's own existence and then sees who suddenly starts pillaging / destroying / returning to primal instincts out of a feeling of betrayal, for the GHod to then re-appear to say "Well if you were only doing it for the reward it wasn't real faith / love" but that may be my warped mind mixing parables / theology / fiction.

Christmas is an odd one, I've had happier ones in hospitals or shady squats with down and outers self medicating with various substances than in an affluent, warm (in temperature at least) environment with loadsa presents, a deluge of food etc etc I was and still am pretty damn materialistic / ego driven so I can't pretend I don't want stuff but the waste culture and inequality gets me. Not that you have suggested I'm out to kill the magic / joy in the little ones but it's a tough one, Christmas was everything to me at a younger age but in an unhealthy way, but battling against the "evils" of capitalism / advertising isn't the healthiest approach either so as always it's a balance!

that’s the main thing for me. We know almost nothing compared to what there is to know.

covid fûcked us for 2 years plus. Yet some people believe that we have the knowledge of the origins of everything.

 

[Grays_1890]

that’s the main thing for me. We know almost nothing compared to what there is to know.

covid fûcked us for 2 years plus. Yet some people believe that we have the knowledge of the origins of everything.

Of course but we know that the fables amongst which, thst the earth was built in 6 days and the lazy git had a day off on Sunday because he did it so well is flimflam. Anyone's that's tackled an IKEA flat pack knows that

 

[DTA]

Of course but we know that the fables amongst which, thst the earth was built in 6 days and the lazy git had a day off on Sunday because he did it so well is flimflam. Anyone's that's tackled an IKEA flat pack knows that

what is six days? The time we understand is based on the the rotation of the earth around the sun.

Even within this paradigm, ‘days’ were not 24hrs a few hundred thousand years ago.

What if days meant something completely different?

What if the point of the seventh day of rest was to show that people shouldnt work every day? What if that was the lesson we should have learned from it, that every day is not a working day.

I’m not a proponent of one religion over another, but I think there are lessons to be learned from most of them, and almost everyone of them have had an impact in to bringing us to where we are today. Both positively and negatively.

And their impact and philosophy should not be dismissed so easily

For example of the older faiths and beliefs have an environmental impact that is much more in tune with conserving our natural world and living in harmony with other beings.

 

[Grays_1890]

what is six days? The time we understand is based on the the rotation of the earth around the sun.

Even within this paradigm, ‘days’ were not 24hrs a few hundred thousand years ago.

What if days meant something completely different?

What if the point of the seventh day of rest was to show that people shouldnt work every day? What if that was the lesson we should have learned from it, that every day is not a working day.

I’m not a proponent of one religion over another, but I think their are lessons to be learned from most of them, and almost everyone of them have had an impact in to bringing us to where we are today. Both positively and negatively.

And their impact and philosophy should not be dismissed so easily

For example of the older faiths and beliefs have an environmental impact that is much more in tune with conserving our natural world and living in harmony with other beings.

TBH that post was a pure joke hence the IKEA flat pack line...

 

[braineclipse]

Science versus GHod as if both can't exist simultaneously is a certain style of thinking where it always ends in the same debate, without faith there is no point in religion as if there was concrete evidence we'd all know which one was the "right" one. What you deem as science could very well be a Hansel and Gretel breadcrumb trail set out by a deity (or numerous deities) to humble us in the end but it's not provable, which is kind of the point anyway.

Appreciate that a lot of what you've posted is a follow on and not a direct response to my post but I want to make clear I don't think Organised religion is necessarily a good thing but also have respect when it is used in a positive way, it comes back full circle to earlier debate re Father Christmas - If kids are only behaving well to get presents at Christmas from the reindeer driven sleigh that's a worry - It's also a shame if people only behave "well" to get a ticket in to heaven, but if it makes the world a bit more bearable it's a interesting trade off + one of the religions could legitimately be right and based in divine truth, however unlikely it is...

Doing the right thing because heaven/hell/GHod.

From what I know atheists do not commit more crimes than religious people. Don't know what they says about religious people if they have toys extra motivation/threat to do good and still aren't better. Would they just *struggle cuddle* and pillage if not for their faith? I doubt it.

But no doubt, for some people there's a positive effect there.

I also think there are clear downsides.
-Basing said morality on the interpretation of ancient unchanging texts. That's really not a good thing.
-Injecting moral certainty when there should be conflict or dilemma. Nothing quite like someone who is morally certain with the "power of GHod" behind them and at the same time "wrong" (in my or your opinion).
-Making a religious institution and faith more important than moral choices and their consequences. See child sex scandals as an example. Devastating consequences.

Although there are positives, for me the negatives seem stronger. Though I can't prove that, just my impression.

 

[braineclipse]

what is six days? The time we understand is based on the the rotation of the earth around the sun.

Even within this paradigm, ‘days’ were not 24hrs a few hundred thousand years ago.

What if days meant something completely different?

What if the point of the seventh day of rest was to show that people shouldnt work every day? What if that was the lesson we should have learned from it, that every day is not a working day.

I’m not a proponent of one religion over another, but I think there are lessons to be learned from most of them, and almost everyone of them have had an impact in to bringing us to where we are today. Both positively and negatively.

And their impact and philosophy should not be dismissed so easily

For example of the older faiths and beliefs have an environmental impact that is much more in tune with conserving our natural world and living in harmony with other beings.

I agree with just about all of that.

I think both non believers and believers can dismiss the philosophy of the various religions they don't believe in too easily. I've definitely been guilty of this myself.

One of my main issues with religion comes when the philosophy (whatever the interpretation) can't possibly be dismissed by the religious. When instead of doubt, uncertainty and ethical dilemmas there's certainty because GHod and because some text that doesn't change.

 

[spurspinter1]

Yeh I am not against he idea of a GHod if it was genuine especially as the idea that the universe is infinite and it would offer an answer to the question of the ages.

That's the trick though isn't it, the "if" GHod is genuine is the basis of faith, if we all knew factually there was a GHod then it would be common knowledge and there would be no leap of faith required, it would be common sense. Some label it as a kind of catch 22 which I appreciate as it is a frustrating one when viewed in a certain way.

Sorry bud I'm not fully seeing the link with our current understanding of the universe being infinite to hypothetically coming to know there is a GHod.

And we all know the answer to the meaning of life, at least one of the questions of the ages, it's 42, well that's what the computer said anyways