Virgin Mary, The Nativity and Me Too

[braineclipse]

Violated?
She became a beloved figure for billions, spreading joy, hope and peace.
Not bad for a Violated women who probably never existed.
Hedging my bets there at end, just in case.

If we ignore that she was a child because that's modern standards. (of course an omnipotent being should have a good grasp of all moral standards, but let's not get into the weeds of omnipotence).

Making someone pregnant without their consent, without their knowledge, however it happens surely is a violation. *struggle cuddle* may be the wrong word, but violated seems too weak if anything.

It's a strange thing to be celebrating. Only a deity could be celebrated for such an act. To tell it to children as a happy story, without qualifiers, claiming it to be a true story. It's only seen as fine to do because it's been the standard for a long time.

 

[braineclipse]

Seems in general religion is the only thing that gets a free pass these days and still has people running for the covers when critiqued. As an atheist I would love to see more of it questioned because the whole "Virgin" birth thing covers up noncery as you say, plenty of that in other religions too. Add to that the hate that's accepted still because its under the veil of 2000 year old scriptures and you have yourself a pretty weird scenario in modern terms TBH

That said I like Christmas as a period so if you took it as a 25th of Decmeber world day and did the Santa thing only, I'm all for it

It's not the only thing that gets a free pass, but it's up there. Quite happy to see more pushback in recent decades.

Whatever one finds problematic with modern day "cancel culture", "identity politics" and "political correctness" the religious and religious institutions have been doing it for centuries. And continues to do it. We just haven't always described it with those terms.

I too like Christmas. Quite like that it's becoming secularised, not so much the hyper capitalism aspect.

 

[glasgowspur]

If we ignore that she was a child because that's modern standards. (of course an omnipotent being should have a good grasp of all moral standards, but let's not get into the weeds of omnipotence).

Making someone pregnant without their consent, without their knowledge, however it happens surely is a violation. *struggle cuddle* may be the wrong word, but violated seems too weak if anything.

It's a strange thing to be celebrating. Only a deity could be celebrated for such an act. To tell it to children as a happy story, without qualifiers, claiming it to be a true story. It's only seen as fine to do because it's been the standard for a long time.

Ok just to be absolutely clear here my posts were purely tongue in cheek.
I'm not a religious person and certainly do not consider myself to be a Christian, however I do respect others right to believe (or not) what they will.

As mortality back in the day was so much lower if we (as in humans) waited until it was "morally correct" to breed we probably wouldn't be were we are just now. What other animals (and that is all we are) waits for an arbitrary period of time to pass to breed once they are capable. Our current age of consent came i think from 19th century. Not that I'm in anyway supporting underage sex.
I'm not that familiar with the bible and shaky on the consent part, but I'm pretty sure she was informed, the annunciation of Gabriel or Michael, can't recall which.
Are children equipped to understand the nuances of the story and how the world is a different place from 2000 years ago?
Why strip the joy out of it fir them, imho kids grow up to quickly now and have to much crap and stress dumped on them to early.

Anyway I've spent to much time discussing something i don't believe in, I mean we all know that its Santa that makes Christmas, and he is real!

 

[braineclipse]

Ok just to be absolutely clear here my posts were purely tongue in cheek.
I'm not a religious person and certainly do not consider myself to be a Christian, however I do respect others right to believe (or not) what they will.

As mortality back in the day was so much lower if we (as in humans) waited until it was "morally correct" to breed we probably wouldn't be were we are just now. What other animals (and that is all we are) waits for an arbitrary period of time to pass to breed once they are capable. Our current age of consent came i think from 19th century. Not that I'm in anyway supporting underage sex.
I'm not that familiar with the bible and shaky on the consent part, but I'm pretty sure she was informed, the annunciation of Gabriel or Michael, can't recall which.
Are children equipped to understand the nuances of the story and how the world is a different place from 2000 years ago?
Why strip the joy out of it fir them, imho kids grow up to quickly now and have to much crap and stress dumped on them to early.

Anyway I've spent to much time discussing something i don't believe in, I mean we all know that its Santa that makes Christmas, and he is real!

I appreciate you being tongue in cheek. Not my intention to be overly critical or pedantic about your post, sorry about that.

Young children are in no way equipped to understand those nuances. But they can learn more nuances at some point, which is much easier with help from adults. Rather than the problematic aspects of a story being ignored. We usually do this with most things I think, try to spare them from what they can't possibly understand, try to bring nuances when they're ready. Religious indoctrination is often the opposite imo, which I think was part of the original point in this thread.

I definitely agree that kids have too much dumped on them at an early age. We definitely shouldn't strip joy from them. We should spare them from knowing about the many horrors of the world at an early age.

I think all of that can be quite easily achieved with religion and Christmas. But many religious people seem to think it a good thing to get children believing these stories to be true, get them believing before the can possibly understand.

In effect telling them the sugar coated version so they can grow up thinking the violation of Mary was a good thing.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Seems in general religion is the only thing that gets a free pass these days and still has people running for the covers when critiqued. As an atheist I would love to see more of it questioned because the whole "Virgin" birth thing covers up noncery as you say, plenty of that in other religions too. Add to that the hate that's accepted still because its under the veil of 2000 year old scriptures and you have yourself a pretty weird scenario in modern terms TBH

That said I like Christmas as a period so if you took it as a 25th of Decmeber world day and did the Santa thing only, I'm all for it

As frequent comments and threads like this all over western media and internet show...

 

[glasgowspur]

I appreciate you being tongue in cheek. Not my intention to be overly critical or pedantic about your post, sorry about that.

Young children are in no way equipped to understand those nuances. But they can learn more nuances at some point, which is much easier with help from adults. Rather than the problematic aspects of a story being ignored. We usually do this with most things I think, try to spare them from what they can't possibly understand, try to bring nuances when they're ready. Religious indoctrination is often the opposite imo, which I think was part of the original point in this thread.

I definitely agree that kids have too much dumped on them at an early age. We definitely shouldn't strip joy from them. We should spare them from knowing about the many horrors of the world at an early age.

I think all of that can be quite easily achieved with religion and Christmas. But many religious people seem to think it a good thing to get children believing these stories to be true, get them believing before the can possibly understand.

In effect telling them the sugar coated version so they can grow up thinking the violation of Mary was a good thing.

Absolutely no problem mate, i love a good discussion over the silliness of us humans, all our flaws and things we've fudged up and are continuing to fudge up and will no doubt fudge up until the end of days.

Christmas would be great if we could drop the Christian bit and commercial stuff.
I liked the idea someone suggested about it being more like thanksgiving.
A time for family and friends, indulging to much in food and drink (maybe a less of the drink than food), reflecting on the good in your life and how you could maybe make others life a little better.

 

[Grays_1890]

It's not the only thing that gets a free pass, but it's up there. Quite happy to see more pushback in recent decades.

Whatever one finds problematic with modern day "cancel culture", "identity politics" and "political correctness" the religious and religious institutions have been doing it for centuries. And continues to do it. We just haven't always described it with those terms.

I too like Christmas. Quite like that it's becoming secularised, not so much the hyper capitalism aspect.

Yeh my bad it's not the only thing but is most certainly the biggest.

People get ultra nervous at questioning religion which I find extraordinary as it's frankly all fairy stories and then you add the dangerous part that those that are into it take ultra literal and actually believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, turned water into wine, died on a cross and came back to life. I've said it before, but if a bloke turned up on your doorstep telling you about some bloke down his local who did all that you would slam the door in his face and laugh, rightly so. I find it absolutely stunning that people believe it, the again it is indoctrinated into them from a young age, before rational thought takes grip, so there is that explanation.

My issue with it, and I know I have bored people with it recently, but its the hate within religion that people spout and live by and other say "you have to respect it because it religious belief".....what a cop out that is. Hate is hate, oppression is oppression, I don't care if its because your a right wing nutter in the local spoons or because it was written in a book from 2000 years before you lived, its the same thing just a different mask.

We should question "beliefs" like that, socially there is actually zero difference to the kind of hate in religion than an individual who is like that because their dad and their dad before them was hateful, it comes from the same kind of influence, both from a young age, both from someone or a source they respect and both wrong, but we pull the individual person to task, rightly so, but religion gets to carry on with the idea it's wrong to be born into your own skin.

It's one of life's mysteries that bugs me, especially when you see the world's atrocities spawned by religion that still continue. You have to big thick as pig dung to want to hurt someone else or go to war over a book or books about questionable characters you never met, who never existed.

 

[parklane1]

Yeh my bad it's not the only thing but is most certainly the biggest.

People get ultra nervous at questioning religion which I find extraordinary as it's frankly all fairy stories and then you add the dangerous part that those that are into it take ultra literal and actually believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, turned water into wine, died on a cross and came back to life. I've said it before, but if a bloke turned up on your doorstep telling you about some bloke down his local who did all that you would slam the door in his face and laugh, rightly so. I find it absolutely stunning that people believe it all, the again it is indoctrinated into them from a young ages, before rational thought takes grip, so there is that explanation.

My issue with it, and I know I have bored people with it recently, but its the hate within religion that people spout and live by and other say "you have to respect it because it religious belief".....what a cop out that is. Hate is hate, oppression is oppression, I don't care if its because your a right wing nutter in the local spoons or because it was written in a book from a time 2000 years before you lived, its the same thing just a different mask.

We should question "beliefs" like that, socially there is actually zero difference to the kind of hate in religion than an individual who is like that because their dad and their dad before them was hateful, it comes from the same kind of influence, both from a young age, both from someone or a source they respect and both wrong, but we pull the individual person to rask, rightly so, but religion gets to carry on with the idea it's wrong to be born into your own skin.

It's one of life's mysteries that bugs me, especially when you see the world's atrocities spawned by religion that still continue. You have to big thick as pig dung to want to hurt someone else or go to war over a book or books about questionable characters you never met, who never existed.

Great post, i usually stay away from religious topics but i have to say that you have summed it up well.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I hate religion and have chosen not to pursue close friendship with people who are religious or worse still, spiritual.

Was raised Catholic so am given free reign to say what I like. If you are religious you are thick boarding on departed. So thick that by believing in GHod, you are thicker then me. Let that sink you religious nuts, you are thicker then me.

Get rid of religion and the Royal family and this country improves over night.

 

[Grays_1890]

Great post, i usually stay away from religious topics but i have to say that you have summed it up well.

Thanks mate

And look, I am not trying to be offensive to religion, I understand those that like the comfort of belief but the idea that its the answer to all the questions.

Gervais maybe a comedian but his views are a great summary on it all and effectively the same as what many have spent time studying. Basically for one religion to exist the others would be disproven which is just logic. Also religions all seem to have a number of convenient similarities across the board, they are effectively the same framework which points towards a more modern introduction such as the idea that if you don't believe and stray off the path, don't abide by the rules you are unlikely to go to "heaven" or "Paradise"....aka the greatest control tactic man has ever used....fear.

Not to drone on but, if you take christianity as a study and say, well its 2000+ years old, so on an average of 50 years life span from then to now, thats 40 generations of hands that the story or control of the religion has gone through. This means what people follow today and that framework is absolutely non comparable to what the religion started out as, I mean if you did Chinese whispers in a room of 40 people on the same day in the same place, the end would be different to the start, now try justifying that religion over the same sample but over 2000 years is actually believable, has not been changed, has not been manipulated (If you don't donate to the Church maybe you won't make it.....convenient addition ?) Its absolutely loony to believe it.

Honestly when you peel the onion on it all it becomes more and more ridiculous, even to the point that each claims to be a "religion of peace"....except for 90% of every war this planet seen.

 

[Mikey10]

Gervais maybe a comedian...

Highly debatable.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This tonight will be really interesting on the origins/meaning of christmas/midwinter festivals. He's a folklore historian: https://www.thelasttuesdaysociety.o...ristmas-professor-ronald-hutton-zoom-lecture/

 

[Gutter Boy]

His book on it is decent too: https://www.waterstones.com/book/stations-of-the-sun/ronald-hutton/9780192854483

 

[spurspinter1]

I hate religion and have chosen not to pursue close friendship with people who are religious or worse still, spiritual.

Was raised Catholic so am given free reign to say what I like. If you are religious you are thick boarding on departed. So thick that by believing in GHod, you are thicker then me. Let that sink you religious nuts, you are thicker then me.

Get rid of religion and the Royal family and this country improves over night.

If, and it's a big if, even just 0.0000001% of someone thinks there may be a GHod but not one that is necessarily linked to an organised religion, are they considered spiritual? The follow up question being, are you absolutely certain there is no greater power at force?

Religion and royalty have caused a lot of damage so I get your view but if it wasn't for those tools the damage would only have been committed in the name of something else imo.

Also not attempting to correct or change your useage of the word "departed" as the "You can't say anything these days" may get uppity - However it's not one I go for these days and I am looking for a viable alternative so open to suggestions.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If, and it's a big if, even just 0.0000001% of someone thinks there may be a GHod but not one that is necessarily linked to an organised religion, are they considered spiritual? The follow up question being, are you absolutely certain there is no greater power at force?

Religion and royalty have caused a lot of damage so I get your view but if it wasn't for those tools the damage would only have been committed in the name of something else imo.

Also not attempting to correct or change your useage of the word "departed" as the "You can't say anything these days" may get uppity - However it's not one I go for these days and I am looking for a viable alternative so open to suggestions.

How about bat brick crazy.

Anyone who believes in religion is bat brick crazy should be sent to the nut House.

I spent some time in the nut house in August, so having been under the care of mental health nurses I am allowed to say that. Also even at my lowest I did not think the was a man on a cloud to save me.

 

[spurspinter1]

How about bat brick crazy.

Anyone who believes in religion is bat brick crazy should be sent to the nut House.

I spent some time in the nut house in August, so having been under the care of mental health nurses I am allowed to say that. Also even at my lowest I did not think the was a man on a cloud to save me.

Belief in religion wasn't the question, religion is definitely a real thing whether it's good or bad irregardless of whether you have faith in any or not - Organised religions are a worry for me as they appear to be for you.

And I wouldn't suggest you need to spend time at a mental health facility to use the term nutcase, "r#tard / departed" is another matter.

Not everyone who believes in the man in the cloud thinks he is benevolent/ kind either, it's not always about a GHod being there to save you as that assumes GHod is there to help everyone..Or that GHod is even still alive if he/she/it ever existed.

What I can gleam from your posts (which may not be something you actually want to discuss which I respect) is you prefer to have faith in yourself rather than any holy scriptures claiming to know what's what so I like your stance, whether it perhaps is not super respectful of people who have a different approach or otherwise. Horses for courses and finding what works for you mate, that's not an overly out there idea however you choose to frame it - For what it's worth I'm glad you're doing better and are not at "your lowest" as you've described it.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Belief in religion wasn't the question, religion is definitely a real thing whether it's good or bad irregardless of whether you have faith in any or not - Organised religions are a worry for me as they appear to be for you.

And I wouldn't suggest you need to spend time at a mental health facility to use the term nutcase, "r#tard / departed" is another matter.

Not everyone who believes in the man in the cloud thinks he is benevolent/ kind either, it's not always about a GHod being there to save you as that assumes GHod is there to help everyone..Or that GHod is even still alive if he/she/it ever existed.

What I can gleam from your posts (which may not be something you actually want to discuss which I respect) is you prefer to have faith in yourself rather than any holy scriptures claiming to know what's what so I like your stance, whether it perhaps is not super respectful of people who have a different approach or otherwise. Horses for courses and finding what works for you mate, that's not an overly out there idea however you choose to frame it - For what it's worth I'm glad you're doing better and are not at "your lowest" as you've described it.

Well I actually was in a nut house in the summer. It helped.

But if you believe in any form of religion you are so stupid ypu should not be allowed to drive a car or hold a job of any responsibility.

Believe what you like. But at least those freaks that speak the star wars made up language know that is fantasy and not reality.

The brick I heard growing up Catholic both at school and at home. You know I can murder someone and if I repent on my death bed I go to heaven.

 

[braineclipse]

There's a difference between being wrong and being stupid. Smart people all over the place can be wrong about a myriad of things, including religious beliefs.

Getting indoctrinated into religious belief doesn't make one stupid.

Equating the two is a disservice to stupid people, non stupid people, religious people and non religious people. People, all people, are only to some extent rational.

Unless the conclusion is "all people are stupid", in which case I kind of agree, but the term pretty much loses value at that point.

 

[spurspinter1]

Well I actually was in a nut house in the summer. It helped.

But if you believe in any form of religion you are so stupid ypu should not be allowed to drive a car or hold a job of any responsibility.

Believe what you like. But at least those freaks that speak the star wars made up language know that is fantasy and not reality.

The brick I heard growing up Catholic both at school and at home. You know I can murder someone and if I repent on my death bed I go to heaven.

You had already said you'd had a stay in a "nut house", I am paying attention to your posts mate don't worry! I'm also glad it helped if that needs to stated, you meet all sorts of interesting characters in those facilities so it's learning what you can when you're in, either from staff or the patients.

On the other stuff I'm happy to leave it as it doesn't seem like much will change your mind but braineclipse has put it in a better way than I could have phrased it.

 

[Grays_1890]

If, and it's a big if, even just 0.0000001% of someone thinks there may be a GHod but not one that is necessarily linked to an organised religion, are they considered spiritual? The follow up question being, are you absolutely certain there is no greater power at force?

Religion and royalty have caused a lot of damage so I get your view but if it wasn't for those tools the damage would only have been committed in the name of something else imo.

Also not attempting to correct or change your useage of the word "departed" as the "You can't say anything these days" may get uppity - However it's not one I go for these days and I am looking for a viable alternative so open to suggestions.

I agree 100% with this part, people would find something else

As for the greater power, there is, its science and the science of the universe, which we discover is the truth hour by hour, day by day. As I mentioned earlier, the idea there is someone no one can see, who may be the greater power is just one of religions conveniences but its run out of legs in my opinion. And as they say, its not on those that don't believe to prove its on those selling the story.

And look I agree that belief gave purpose and probably kept an order when it came to explaining why the sun rises in the morning, where it goes in the night and to explain planetary formation to folks who's brains did not even include the concept of Space, but now, for me, organised religion proves to be archaiac and act as a suppresion of rational thought and expression, almost manipulative (refer to my previous post of the idea that if you don't follow the pillars of said religion you go to the pointy tailed guy in the ground)

My old lecturer said it best for me, those that have a literal belief in religion as the answer are liken to those that say they have a million pound when they don't, they are either lying to others or they believe they have it and in fact they are lying to themselves, either way it's a lie.

Its a genuine shame that religion has effectively created an obsession of what came before and what might come after detracting from the here and now, there are real people, real experiences and moments of real joy that people genuinely prefer to hate, ignore and take an adverse view on because of their religious views and how what might come after their time here and now if they embrace them, thats the real shame.

We apply rational thought to our day to day lives, visit qualified Drs, question the legitimacy of claims, ask for proof, ask for receipts, weigh up pros and cons and have a naturally scepticism for things we are told every day of our lives, but with religion, people just abandon the same level of rational thought.