braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Why can't he be both?
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Vincent Janssen
- Thread starter Bedfordspurs
- Start date
Why can't he be both?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I really, really, really think we need to chill with Janssen. Thankfully there is a good amount of patience in this thread.
He wasn't awful yesterday. He wasn't amazing either but I've seen Kane have games that are just as poor. The fact is the whole team was bang average until we switched formation and Villa tired - as to be expected against a team that were happy to defend in numbers throughout the entire first half. In these instances, all Janssen can do is work hard and be patient.
I think he will actually be fine and a perfect second choice to Kane. He has the work-rate he can play as a lone striker, he can play others in and hold up the ball and it's not as if Kane is dramatically faster. Kane has also looked like a bit of a lumbering plodder when on loan when he was younger, but is obviously a good player. They do have subtle differences, because Janssen is a bit more about strength and Kane is a bit more about subtlety, so the team and him need to get used to each other, but that is to be expected.
I just don't see this awful, wretched player that a lot of pundits seem to see. Looking at it objectively, most first halves end up being quite boring as teams look to keep it tight and our manager, with the onus on him more often to not win the game, takes in the opposition and configures the appropriate changes to break them down. In addition, most first halves for the second choice team who have had less match practice and less time together, will also be a bit disjointed. It is not something that will only affect Janssen, it affected Son and Sissoko too yesterday. All VJ can do is kee working hard and be patient, he's in a great spot and I think he's going to prove his worth to us.
The problem is, because he hasn't had that 'break out' game yet, every time he doesn't, it is seen as further prove of why he is poor. Son has had great games so an exactly similar poor performance is not seen in the same light. But with the mitigating circumstances in the above paragraph, we can see why. It doesn't mean Janssen has any less talent or any less of a strong mentality to eventually succeed. Young players that haven't been focal points in top teams before can come in and probably adapt a little easier, because they only know one way, the way we are teaching them. Winks, Dier, Dele, Kane all have that very obvious trait in common. Wanyama has played under Poch before and knows exactly what is required, but VJ and Sissoko have just needed a little more time. No bad thing. They'll get there eventually. I'm pretty sure of it.
He wasn't awful yesterday. He wasn't amazing either but I've seen Kane have games that are just as poor. The fact is the whole team was bang average until we switched formation and Villa tired - as to be expected against a team that were happy to defend in numbers throughout the entire first half. In these instances, all Janssen can do is work hard and be patient.
I think he will actually be fine and a perfect second choice to Kane. He has the work-rate he can play as a lone striker, he can play others in and hold up the ball and it's not as if Kane is dramatically faster. Kane has also looked like a bit of a lumbering plodder when on loan when he was younger, but is obviously a good player. They do have subtle differences, because Janssen is a bit more about strength and Kane is a bit more about subtlety, so the team and him need to get used to each other, but that is to be expected.
I just don't see this awful, wretched player that a lot of pundits seem to see. Looking at it objectively, most first halves end up being quite boring as teams look to keep it tight and our manager, with the onus on him more often to not win the game, takes in the opposition and configures the appropriate changes to break them down. In addition, most first halves for the second choice team who have had less match practice and less time together, will also be a bit disjointed. It is not something that will only affect Janssen, it affected Son and Sissoko too yesterday. All VJ can do is kee working hard and be patient, he's in a great spot and I think he's going to prove his worth to us.
The problem is, because he hasn't had that 'break out' game yet, every time he doesn't, it is seen as further prove of why he is poor. Son has had great games so an exactly similar poor performance is not seen in the same light. But with the mitigating circumstances in the above paragraph, we can see why. It doesn't mean Janssen has any less talent or any less of a strong mentality to eventually succeed. Young players that haven't been focal points in top teams before can come in and probably adapt a little easier, because they only know one way, the way we are teaching them. Winks, Dier, Dele, Kane all have that very obvious trait in common. Wanyama has played under Poch before and knows exactly what is required, but VJ and Sissoko have just needed a little more time. No bad thing. They'll get there eventually. I'm pretty sure of it.
If you want to ignore the goal/assist they got in this game, then ok (I don't agree with ignoring it). But they have also been scoring/assisting in other games this season, they have been contributing. Taking that to an extreme, if Harry has an off day, we forgive him because he has two 20+ league goals in the bank and is on the way to his 3rd 20+ league goal season in a row.
Janssen hasn't got any credit in the bank because he hasn't been up to the standard we need. In other games, he has had promising moments and I still think we can give him time, but yesterday I thought he was cr*p and deserved to be subbed. Plenty here are saying we played better with Alli coming on and Janssen was unlucky. You can also say we played better when Janssen went off and Son went upfront.
Look at Son's goal yesterday, does Janssen look anywhere near being sharp enough to score that? He didn't yesterday and he should know that how he performed simply isn't good enough.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think Poch is saying the right thing. A firm enough hand in telling him what he needs to do, but balanced enough that he's not sticking the boot in. Subbing off rather than keeping him on out of pity or to make the whole game about VJ could dent confidence further - that's more pressure than needed. In this sense, he's treated in a way that means he has something to strive for, rather than treated like a failed case that needs kid gloves.
And the good thing is, I think it's a good sign that Poch is applying a little bit of the right kind of pressure on him. It would be more concerning if he completely stuck the boot in, or if he tried to say nothing was wrong - it would be like he didn't care. Compare Poch's comments with Eddie Howe's on Jordan Ibe's. Poch knows Janssen is doing what is required. He's not saying VJ has been a failure. Howe is basically Ibe has failed.
I
indianspur
Guest
Number 9 shirt is cursed
He should change to 18. That is a good one for Spurs strikers
He should change to 18. That is a good one for Spurs strikers
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Young players needing 'credit in the bank' is not what is required from fans, or the club. He needs patience from us. You can't have credit when he's adjusting to circumstances that are making it harder for him!
VJ's credit is how he performed in Holland. Our job is to show faith.
PochettinoPochettinoPochettino
Serge Aurier
Spot on. Sissoko has done much more than what Janssen has done in his time at the club. And you know what, strikers are rated on how many goals they score, like it or not. If they don't score then they at least need to be assisting, which he has done once I believe. It's just not enough and he needs to start showing either of those in his game or he goes next summer.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
I don't think that is relevant unfortunately. How many games did stambouli play? How about Njie? They just did not meet Poch's exacting standards. Conversely Son had a dip in form last season but showed before he got injured and in patches after his injury that he can be a very good player, posing a significant goal threat. Offers came in for him and Poch blocked it.
People mention Lamela coming good after an uncertain start. I believe his case was different in so far as he looked to have a bit about him before suffering a serious injury and there was massive instability around the club. These are not factors for Janssen, although granted he is coming back from injury.
In the games he has played he has not made enough of an impact or looked threatening . This is not based just on yesterday's game. Us fans can be sympathetic and say he should be given more time or should not be subbed off etc, Poch is a professional trying to build a team to challenge for honours. Janssen will either come up to standard or Poch will dispense with him because we need cover for Kane, he will not be sentimental.
I can't agree with this. We haven't got him as a youth player, he's part of the senior squad and needs to do better than he has been doing. At the moment, he is showing zero signs of improvement. A few goals and assists (credit in the bank) will get him the time he needs, but he has to do more to earn it with the minutes he gets. We are a team that wants to challenge for the title, we cannot afford passengers.
If Kane gets injured, do we just stick Janssen upfront and let him play game after game, no matter his level of performance? Poch won't do that, he'll play Son.
I'm not saying we bin him, I'm saying he needs to play better when he gets the chance to play. And I'm saying it was absolutely correct to sub him against Villa because he played badly and we did better when he went off.
Legohamster
Ian Walker
33 - Excluding penalties, Vincent Janssen has had a total of 33 shots without scoring in all comps; the most of any PL striker. Wayward.
glasgowspur
Andy Thompson
I'm not saying Janssen was good yesterday, I saying he was not the worst yet is getting all the flack.
And I will repeat, he was getting stick while still on before the goals and son was awful.
All I'm saying is cut him some slack.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Pochettino said: "He's young, from a different league, he needs to adapt, work hard and not be frustrated. We push our players a lot and we will push him to the level we need."
At 22 he's doing okay. We can see some signs of ability, if not confidence. We can also see he can tuck the ball in the net - at an international level and in the Dutch league. He *can* score goals. Whether he will for us depends on getting confidence which isn't easy when you have no time to bed into the side before your out again, while the media and fans say you're shyte.
Given time Poch will get him firing. Have some patience.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
At 22 he's doing okay. We can see some signs of ability, if not confidence. We can also see he can tuck the ball in the net - at an international level and in the Dutch league. He *can* score goals. Whether he will for us depends on getting confidence which isn't easy when you have no time to bed into the side before your out again, while the media and fans say you're shyte.
Given time Poch will get him firing. Have some patience.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
For what it's worth, I would start him again in the next cup game.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Grays_1890
Barry Daines
You look at Rose and he was pretty much on last chance saloon with the odd left midfield slot until Poch worked him into the player he is today. Kane was in the same boat, he came into the side without any track record and we were lucky he literally burst into the player he is today, there is no doubting that after all his loans (most of them failed) had he not fired he would have been sent down the road. And lets not forget Bale, near hate figure for his LB/Spurs losing streak until Harry switched him up to LM and he had a break through season. You can make a list longer than a roll of toilet paper of players that take a season to settle. I trust Poch's judgement over my own as I know the best in my armchair where as he is paid millions to do the job day in day out. Even if our man Jannsen does not make it I don't think he gains much from his own fans adding to his woes at games. To give a slight slant of it all Llorente and Negredo all had stale starts to their club careers but are now firing and they have the benefit of playing week in week out as the number one's, patience is as they say a virtue!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Irony is that Batshuayi not signing was met with a huge level of uproar on here and credited to our old scout leaving, but it shows that a quiet start is not that unusual even when in the example of Batshuayi we were the supposed experts
Irony is that Batshuayi not signing was met with a huge level of uproar on here and credited to our old scout leaving, but it shows that a quiet start is not that unusual even when in the example of Batshuayi we were the supposed experts
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
It'll be interesting to see what Pochettino does if we get a high-profile draw.
Exactly!
I don't see how the lad is supposed to sharpen up, get better etc without the run of games.
I worry about his pace/sharpness. You don't necessarily need to have pace as a striker to succeed in the prem but what you do need instead is a good first touch, good strength, a bit of guile, and be a good finisher.
Example - Olivier Giroud. Undoubtedly has the above 4 attributes to make up for lack of pace, and only just about makes the level of a top 4 club.
I do hope he finds the net soon, it will do him a world of good as I think the biggest attribute any striker can have is confidence.