Fair play to the families hopefully they get their closure now
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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying
- Thread starter southstand1882
- Start date
PaulH
Jamie O'Hara
So Scara, the only reason that people have the perception that the fans robbed from the dead and tinkled on the police is because of the lies that the police spread to the press to cover their own arses. Absolutely disgraceful to think that it is true. I would have thought that you were old enough and wise enough not to read into the brick.
Of course, not everyone are angels in this however not one of those fans going into the ground today though "fudge this, we're going to kick off and cause death".
I am truly astounded by some reactions to this
Of course, not everyone are angels in this however not one of those fans going into the ground today though "fudge this, we're going to kick off and cause death".
I am truly astounded by some reactions to this
PaulH
Jamie O'Hara
The main point is that, yes we already knew the facts, but now they are official The Government is apologising for past mistakes and the lies have been uncovered. Hopefully it will go one step further now with Justice for the individuals that are still with us. SY Police, The Sun, the Yorkshire press agency, the Ambulance service etc all need to make public apologies at the very bare minimum.
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
Deary me. The whole point of what has happened today is to provide full transparency. The main focus of this is transparency surrounds the aftermath. This is where the police, media and possibly politicians have been very naughty. From the get go the focus was to spin the blame on the 'out of control' football fan low life. Effectively blaming the fans for the death of themselves or their fellow supporters. This cover up is almost worse than the other shortcomings on the day.
If this was your family involved, having absolutely all evidence in front of you, laid out to scrutinise, so you can fully understand and come to terms with what actually happened. Its a big step to closure. What value? priceless.
I'm not saying for a second that fans intentionally caused any death, nor do I think the possibility even crossed their tiny little minds.
What I am pretty sure about is that many were probably tinkled, many were probably late of their own faults, many probably didn't have tickets, many probably were trying to rush the crowd in order to make kick off, and in all those thousands of scousers is it really that unlikely that just one of them though "Eh, look at that wallet, I'll 'ave that"?
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
scaramanga is our friend
is our friend
is our friend
scaramanga is our friend
he hates scousers
is our friend
is our friend
scaramanga is our friend
he hates scousers
Its good they have closure. However, it's hard to know the truth and we can all agree Liverpool are no angels. This tragedy happened in an era when hooliganism was at it's peak. Don't forget in 1984 they caused a mini riot in Rome, in 1985 they killed 39 Italian fans. Even, the then uefa president when he first heard about Hillsborough said 'oh it's Liverpool causing trouble again'. If this tragedy happened in a different era, more sympathy and less behind scenes so called fabrication, may not have occurred.
By the way, is their a plaque at Anfield for the 39 Juventus fans killed? Just asking as obviously justice is a very important issue
By the way, is their a plaque at Anfield for the 39 Juventus fans killed? Just asking as obviously justice is a very important issue
Milas_Spur
Wayne Routledge
tommysvr
Simon Davies
So is this the justice they were after? Good - the government and police accept responsibility...what does that actually achieve? When will this stop?
If it was my family there that day - and I know this is an easy thing for me to say as they weren't - I would much rather have spent the last 20 years of my life remembering them, rather than fighting a cause that ultimately won't do anything other than have a few newspapers publish the word sorry.
If it was my family there that day - and I know this is an easy thing for me to say as they weren't - I would much rather have spent the last 20 years of my life remembering them, rather than fighting a cause that ultimately won't do anything other than have a few newspapers publish the word sorry.
Park Lane James
Andy Sinton
14 and 15 year old kids died at Hillsborough, you’d have to be a completely emotionally retarded sociopath to not feel empathy.
For some reason, some people would rather bang out tired old clichés and generalisations rather than empathising when discussing Hillsborough - scousers are thieving scumbags, they were hooligans, they’re always playing the victim blah blah blah, maybe these xenophobic views can be attributed to the fact they don’t actually know any scousers or have never actually been to Liverpool? These types of generalised views do normally come from ignorance. I lived in liverpool for 4 years and the vast majority of scousers are normal people, unsurprisingly like the rest of country (apart from the silly accent), there might be a few thieves and scumbags but that’s the same everywhere isn’t it, check out the crime stats if you don’t believe me, there’s less crime in Liverpool than most big cities.
funny thing about this thread is that the people on the likes of RAWK etc. which seem to get people so riled up and fuel this hatred are probably ****ney reds! who I agree, are a despicable group. all the scousers I met in Liverpool actually had a bit of a soft spot for spurs and always used to say how much they enjoyed playing us and going to WHL etc.
As for heysal, obviously Liverpool fans were responsible but does that mean they were responsible for Hillsborough? was it the same people at both games? or are scousers all identikit human beings who share responsibility for every bad act committed by individuals who happen to live in the same city as them? were those 15 and 16 year old kids at heysal? are there deaths justifiable by the fact they supported the same football team as the scumbags at heysal?
I reckon if there had been a cover up into the cause of my childs death I would have kept fighting until those responsible admitted the truth, whether that be 20 years or more, maybe that’s not the most constructive approach but until you lose a child in such a circumstance I don’t really think you have much right to pass judgement on how others deal with such a horrible situation.
For some reason, some people would rather bang out tired old clichés and generalisations rather than empathising when discussing Hillsborough - scousers are thieving scumbags, they were hooligans, they’re always playing the victim blah blah blah, maybe these xenophobic views can be attributed to the fact they don’t actually know any scousers or have never actually been to Liverpool? These types of generalised views do normally come from ignorance. I lived in liverpool for 4 years and the vast majority of scousers are normal people, unsurprisingly like the rest of country (apart from the silly accent), there might be a few thieves and scumbags but that’s the same everywhere isn’t it, check out the crime stats if you don’t believe me, there’s less crime in Liverpool than most big cities.
funny thing about this thread is that the people on the likes of RAWK etc. which seem to get people so riled up and fuel this hatred are probably ****ney reds! who I agree, are a despicable group. all the scousers I met in Liverpool actually had a bit of a soft spot for spurs and always used to say how much they enjoyed playing us and going to WHL etc.
As for heysal, obviously Liverpool fans were responsible but does that mean they were responsible for Hillsborough? was it the same people at both games? or are scousers all identikit human beings who share responsibility for every bad act committed by individuals who happen to live in the same city as them? were those 15 and 16 year old kids at heysal? are there deaths justifiable by the fact they supported the same football team as the scumbags at heysal?
I reckon if there had been a cover up into the cause of my childs death I would have kept fighting until those responsible admitted the truth, whether that be 20 years or more, maybe that’s not the most constructive approach but until you lose a child in such a circumstance I don’t really think you have much right to pass judgement on how others deal with such a horrible situation.
there was no cover up at heysal and 14 people went to jail for manslaughter, obviously should have been more than 14 but some slipped the net
I see this place hasn't changed much. This make interesting reading from a Spurs perspective: http://pseudscorner.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/earlier-hillsborough-disaster-margin.html
Needless to say, if fans were forcing their way in, nicking wallets and doing whatever else, those who had got in early and were at the front still didn't deserve to die did they? As this thread proves, every club has it's fair share of c**ts.
Full article:
Every few years in April a new headline anniversary reminds us of one of the greatest disasters of English football. This year it is 20 years since The Hillsborough tragedy in which Liverpool fans were crushed to death watching their team play an FA Cup semi-final.
English football still feels bitter about the sorrow of that day. And we all know why that is. The police screwed up; and with the help of the newspapers they blamed us. We football fans were accused of unspeakable horrors that I simply refuse to repeat. And plenty of normal human beings in this country believed it. Then when the truth became apparent the police who screwed up got off scot free for their criminal incompetence, largely thanks to the argument that it was an unprecedented situation.
But that argument was another lie.
I know it was a lie. I know far too many Spurs fans to think otherwise. It was a lie because in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.
Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.
Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.
People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.
Panic ensued and Spurs fans faced the prospect of a pain that Liverpool fans eventually had to suffer. Those at the front were bruised and battered well before kick-off and realised quickly they simply could not escape as things got worse. Some still speak of the crowd being packed so tight that their feet were off the ground as they moved.
But in 2011 there will be no Match of the Day special, and no retrospective interviews to mark thirty years since that semi-final. There will no documentaries made or reefs laid on Bill Nicholson Way at the gates to White Hart Lane.
And the reason for that is simple.
Unlike their counterparts in 1989 the police commanders in charge in 1981 were not in charge of their first match, were not ignorant and incompetent, and were seemingly not predisposed to assume all problems were the result of violent scum on the terraces who deserved everything they got.
Instead those in charge acted sensibly on the feedback of officers on the frontline. As a result they ordered the closure of the gates leading to the most crowded pens, and then directed incoming fans to safer areas. They acted somewhat late, but they did act. And many fans were helped out of the crowded spaces by fellow fans and police alike. They then sat along the edge of the pitch to watch the game unfold.
As a result of sensible policing more and more unaware fans could no longer pour into pens where they would innocently crush to death those at the front. My fellow Yids thus gradually adjusted to their tight space, regained composure, and despite a fair few injuries stayed alive to see Ossie and Ricky win at Wembley a month later.
The experience led fans to do something that few ever did back before the days when the internet made complaining so easy. They wrote letters to the authorities to express their severe concerns and to seek answers. And while they never heard back, the FA did take action.
It would have course be understandable that those in charge of football thought very little had happened that day. In fact very little did happen thanks to good policing that negated a need for countless funerals. But even so, Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.
Which leads back to that bitterness.
For Spurs fans the defence of the commanders after 1989 that it was an unprecedented situation they couldn’t possible have seen coming was simply a lie. Fans had been through the precedent. They had been saved from the exact same tragedy by good policing. And the FA ordered the ground changed to make good policing easier in future. So to hear bad police pretend that good police would have done no better was sickening.
Of course very little of what I’ve just written will surprise Liverpool fans. And what really spurred me to write this was not really that people out there won’t know about a semi-final in 1981 that matters little in the grand scheme of football history. What bothers me is that it has just occurred after all this time that I have no idea whether this was a similarly isolated case.
I realise now, and am suddenly frightened by this. I have no idea how exceptional or commonplace the events of both days were. Were we all regularly just a bad police chief away from death for all those years? Or were Spurs fans incredibly lucky that of the two times it really mattered our coin toss landed heads, while Liverpool’s sadly fell to tails?
Needless to say, if fans were forcing their way in, nicking wallets and doing whatever else, those who had got in early and were at the front still didn't deserve to die did they? As this thread proves, every club has it's fair share of c**ts.
Full article:
Every few years in April a new headline anniversary reminds us of one of the greatest disasters of English football. This year it is 20 years since The Hillsborough tragedy in which Liverpool fans were crushed to death watching their team play an FA Cup semi-final.
English football still feels bitter about the sorrow of that day. And we all know why that is. The police screwed up; and with the help of the newspapers they blamed us. We football fans were accused of unspeakable horrors that I simply refuse to repeat. And plenty of normal human beings in this country believed it. Then when the truth became apparent the police who screwed up got off scot free for their criminal incompetence, largely thanks to the argument that it was an unprecedented situation.
But that argument was another lie.
I know it was a lie. I know far too many Spurs fans to think otherwise. It was a lie because in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.
Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.
Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.
People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.
Panic ensued and Spurs fans faced the prospect of a pain that Liverpool fans eventually had to suffer. Those at the front were bruised and battered well before kick-off and realised quickly they simply could not escape as things got worse. Some still speak of the crowd being packed so tight that their feet were off the ground as they moved.
But in 2011 there will be no Match of the Day special, and no retrospective interviews to mark thirty years since that semi-final. There will no documentaries made or reefs laid on Bill Nicholson Way at the gates to White Hart Lane.
And the reason for that is simple.
Unlike their counterparts in 1989 the police commanders in charge in 1981 were not in charge of their first match, were not ignorant and incompetent, and were seemingly not predisposed to assume all problems were the result of violent scum on the terraces who deserved everything they got.
Instead those in charge acted sensibly on the feedback of officers on the frontline. As a result they ordered the closure of the gates leading to the most crowded pens, and then directed incoming fans to safer areas. They acted somewhat late, but they did act. And many fans were helped out of the crowded spaces by fellow fans and police alike. They then sat along the edge of the pitch to watch the game unfold.
As a result of sensible policing more and more unaware fans could no longer pour into pens where they would innocently crush to death those at the front. My fellow Yids thus gradually adjusted to their tight space, regained composure, and despite a fair few injuries stayed alive to see Ossie and Ricky win at Wembley a month later.
The experience led fans to do something that few ever did back before the days when the internet made complaining so easy. They wrote letters to the authorities to express their severe concerns and to seek answers. And while they never heard back, the FA did take action.
It would have course be understandable that those in charge of football thought very little had happened that day. In fact very little did happen thanks to good policing that negated a need for countless funerals. But even so, Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.
Which leads back to that bitterness.
For Spurs fans the defence of the commanders after 1989 that it was an unprecedented situation they couldn’t possible have seen coming was simply a lie. Fans had been through the precedent. They had been saved from the exact same tragedy by good policing. And the FA ordered the ground changed to make good policing easier in future. So to hear bad police pretend that good police would have done no better was sickening.
Of course very little of what I’ve just written will surprise Liverpool fans. And what really spurred me to write this was not really that people out there won’t know about a semi-final in 1981 that matters little in the grand scheme of football history. What bothers me is that it has just occurred after all this time that I have no idea whether this was a similarly isolated case.
I realise now, and am suddenly frightened by this. I have no idea how exceptional or commonplace the events of both days were. Were we all regularly just a bad police chief away from death for all those years? Or were Spurs fans incredibly lucky that of the two times it really mattered our coin toss landed heads, while Liverpool’s sadly fell to tails?
14 people sentenced to 3 years, half of these were suspended, that is injustice.
tommysvr
Simon Davies
Good post.
I've been to Liverpool a couple of times, and it was fudging horrible.
haha! horses for courses, wicked city if you ask me, bricks all over any bricky little boring town in the south (apart from london, obviously)
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
=D>
Do people not realise that the exact same thing could have happened to SPURS fans a few years earlier at the very same ground against Watford?
I'm no apologist for Liverpool fans, I don't like most of them I encounter, but this report today proved that it was not their fault. How would some of you like it if your loved ones who are no longer with us were accused of stealing from dead people and those also dying? I accept that this won't bring back the 96 who died that day, but it is about exhonorating them from any wrongdoing whilst also uncovering corruption at the highest level.
I always used to make fun of countries like Spain, Italy and Greece for having corrupt police forces. This recent discovery, plus cases like the PC Simon Harwood case, prove that our police force are not much better. I used to think they were above this sort of thing. Turns out, they are not.
Heysel is a completely different matter. Some were punished for their crimes, some were not, which is wrong. But to my knowledge, there was no extensive cover up which lasted for over 20 years.
Wriggly
Banned
yawn.