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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

I was at Hillsborough in 1981, no Spurs fan should show such ignorance... I'm sure plenty of us had had a few beers too, maybe some did not have tickets, would the littles one at the front deserve to die as a result?

[video=youtube;jtzHVe2mEN0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
NW5pur said:
haha! horses for courses, wicked city if you ask me, bricks all over any bricky little boring town in the south (apart from london, obviously)
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The impression I got when there was that only two thing do or ever have existed - The Beatles and the dole.

Liverpool's far from my least favourite place, I've been to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and some of the worst bits of Naples and Paris. It's pretty close though.
 
It was partly their fault though. I'm willing to bet many of them didn't have tickets, but thought they could sneak in somehow. The exact same happened in Athens with fake tickets, but thanks to modern technology the ones with genuine tickets were left stranded outside the stadium as their seat was already occupied.

None of the parties involved wanted this to happen, but events combined to create the worst possible outcome.
 
Returner said:
I was at Hillsborough in 1981, no Spurs fan should show such ignorance... I'm sure plenty of us had had a few beers too, maybe some did not have tickets, would the littles one at the front deserve to die as a result?
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No, of course they didn't.

You lot need to shoulder some of the blame though.
 
scaramanga said:
No, of course they didn't.

You lot need to shoulder some of the blame though.
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You reply to my post but I can't see it posted with the video clip...?

You're blaming Spurs fans for what happened in 1981? By the way I was seven. Or are you accusing me of being a Scouser?
 
scaramanga said:
The impression I got when there was that only two thing do or ever have existed - The Beatles and the dole.

Liverpool's far from my least favourite place, I've been to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and some of the worst bits of Naples and Paris. It's pretty close though.
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second most listed building in the UK after London appeal? anyway, i'm not a scouser and couldn’t' t ‎really give a brick who likes or dislikes the place, it's definitely not as bad as some like to make out ‎though!‎
 
Returner said:
You reply to my post but I can't see it posted with the video clip...?

You're blaming Spurs fans for what happened in 1981? By the way I was seven. Or are you accusing me of being a Scouser?
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Ah, sorry - yes I was. Misread your post entirely and thought you were talking about "the" Hillsborough.

I agree that something similar could have happened to Spurs fans and that, again, it's partly a fan problem and partly a police problem. I'd like to think that Spurs fans wouldn't blame the entire world, absolve themselves and then bang on about it forever afterwards had we been unlucky enough.
 
Some of the details that have come today have been shocking! Alcohol tests for deceased 10 yeard olds! Police altering statements which were critical of them.
 
scaramanga said:
Ah, sorry - yes I was. Misread your post entirely and thought you were talking about "the" Hillsborough.

I agree that something similar could have happened to Spurs fans and that, again, it's partly a fan problem and partly a police problem. I'd like to think that Spurs fans wouldn't blame the entire world, absolve themselves and then bang on about it forever afterwards had we been unlucky enough.
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I do get the feeling that it's not just about "the truth coming out" for the scousers, it's about absolving themselves of any blame. They played a part in creating the situation, even if a lot could and should have been handled differently from there on.
 
scaramanga said:
Ah, sorry - yes I was. Misread your post entirely and thought you were talking about "the" Hillsborough.

I agree that something similar could have happened to Spurs fans and that, again, it's partly a fan problem and partly a police problem. I'd like to think that Spurs fans wouldn't blame the entire world, absolve themselves and then bang on about it forever afterwards had we been unlucky enough.
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Well then you're very naive. Liverpool fans were not to blame. All fans get drunk, in those days all fans steamed into terraces, we were just as bad.

It needs policing, football fans need policing. Fans now might not be able to remember entering terraces, but just as Spurs fans did in 81 - especially at a neutral venue - you just walked where you were told to go. You wouldn't know people were getting crushed you just wanted to get in. Regardless of drunk fans (is that a crime now?) had the gates been closed/opened at the correct times fans would not have been squashed. As for ticketless fans (Spurs never had any of those in the 80s) had the turnstiles been adequate they would have been turned away.
 
Returner said:
Well then you're very naive. Liverpool fans were not to blame. All fans get drunk, in those days all fans steamed into terraces, we were just as bad.

It needs policing, football fans need policing. Fans now might not be able to remember entering terraces, but just as Spurs fans did in 81 - especially at a neutral venue - you just walked where you were told to go. You wouldn't know people were getting crushed you just wanted to get in. Regardless of drunk fans (is that a crime now?) had the gates been closed/opened at the correct times fans would not have been squashed. As for ticketless fans (Spurs never had any of those in the 80s) had the turnstiles been adequate they would have been turned away.
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Let's apply that quote to something else.

"It's not the fault of the thieves, all burglars steal stuff. It needs policing"

Just because everyone did/does it, it doesn't make it right - neither does it make the perpetrators blameless. I agree the police should have done better, but they wouldn't have had to do anything at all were it not for the Liverpool fans.
 
scaramanga said:
Let's apply that quote to something else.

"It's not the fault of the thieves, all burglars steal stuff. It needs policing"

Just because everyone did/does it, it doesn't make it right - neither does it make the perpetrators blameless. I agree the police should have done better, but they wouldn't have had to do anything at all were it not for the Liverpool fans.
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What a ridiculous analogy.
Thieves have intent to steal.
No one who turned up that day intended to crush someone to death, they just wanted to see a football game.
 
scaramanga said:
Let's apply that quote to something else.

"It's not the fault of the thieves, all burglars steal stuff. It needs policing"

Just because everyone did/does it, it doesn't make it right - neither does it make the perpetrators blameless. I agree the police should have done better, but they wouldn't have had to do anything at all were it not for the Liverpool fans.
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You are condoning arguably the biggest UK police cover up in decades because you want to blame Scousers. They have been absolved of any blame whether you like it or not.

The police covered it up because they fudged up big time, there is no doubt in that. History (the Spurs clip) shows that the ground was not fit for purpose when big teams visited. Neither Spurs nor Liverpool should have been given the Leppings Lane end as it was not big enough.

The capacity of Hillsborough was over-stated and too many tickets were sold, the turnstiles were inadequate so the police - under a new commander not the one we thankfully had in 81 - panicked and opened the mass exit doors. Just as any fan would if they were late we kick off, they streamed in. The doors to the two side terraces were not open so they went in the central ones which filled up but outside police were still telling fans to keep going in so they kept on pushing.

Blame the Scousers if you want, thankfully most football fans are seeing things a different way today. If you are in any doubt - read the report.
 
I would have thought that football fans would be united in anger today. It's clear that certain people in the media and the police thought they could get away with blaming this disaster on your "typical thuggish football fan".
 
Returner said:
You are condoning arguably the biggest UK police cover up in decades because you want to blame Scousers. They have been absolved of any blame whether you like it or not.

The police covered it up because they fudged up big time, there is no doubt in that. History (the Spurs clip) shows that the ground was not fit for purpose when big teams visited. Neither Spurs nor Liverpool should have been given the Leppings Lane end as it was not big enough.

The capacity of Hillsborough was over-stated and too many tickets were sold, the turnstiles were inadequate so the police - under a new commander not the one we thankfully had in 81 - panicked and opened the mass exit doors. Just as any fan would if they were late we kick off, they streamed in. The doors to the two side terraces were not open so they went in the central ones which filled up but outside police were still telling fans to keep going in so they kept on pushing.

Blame the Scousers if you want, thankfully most football fans are seeing things a different way today. If you are in any doubt - read the report.
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wasn't there loads of room in the side terraces as well, if they'd opened them up maybe the disaster could have been averted, I can hardly see how that can be the scousers fault!
 
Yes, there was plenty of room in the side pens. The total number of fans was not in excess of the tickets allocated (although that was probably a bit high) for the Leppings End as a whole. Its just every one headed for the central pens

I'm not sure its correct that the route to the side pens were closed. I thought they were open, but just that the direct route to follow on entering is through the tunnel to the central pens. What was needed was stewards to direct people to the side pens and then when the central pens were full close the tunnel. Instead all the people entering headed towards the central pens through the tunnel which sloped downward. When they opened the exit gates to let people in quickly they all followed the obvious route to the central pens. Once people started they couldn't turn back because of the mass of people behind.
 
NW5pur said:
wasn't there loads of room in the side terraces as well, if they'd opened them up maybe the disaster could have been averted, I can hardly see how that can be the scousers fault!
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Yes exactly. Look at the pic of the terracing at this link: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ - look at the terrace on the right as you look at it - it's empty. The terrace on the left is busy but still better than the middle, yet the police, according to today's report, only opened doors to the central area.
 
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