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VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

Kandi1977 said:
You are wrong about that. As a ref, I want to make the right decision, and if I had a chance to correct a wrong decision, I would. Just take a look at CL and the world cup. They overturn their own decisions quite often. A lot more than the office refs in the PL have done.
The fifa model is how it should be done! The on pitch ref should make the decisions! He has the feel of the game, and his own view and experience of an incident, in addition to the cameras, so he gets more information to make a decision. The VAR office boys only have the cameras.
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I remain cynical. (Edit, not about you, I'm sure you and a percentage of all refs do their level best to adjudicate fairly. I'm talking about the way VAR is being operated in the PL when blatant penalties are still not awarded by the VAR for fear of 'betraying' a fellow ref.
 
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DubSpur said:
If it's a toenail, foot, 10 yards it doesn't matter, it's offside. That's the rule, not VAR
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It's this nonsensical approach that is undermining football as a spectator sport. Football is popular because it is thrilling, and never more so than when a goal is scored. No one denies that when there has been an obvious transgression a goal should be chalked off, but using technology to examine the minutiae of offside or handball to the exclusion of all else is making fools of the officials. Especially so when other more blatant transgressions in the build up are totally overlooked, such as when Kane's goal against Sheffield United was disallowed despite the blatant foul on Moura that resulted in him being penalised for handball.

In that instance the handball was technically correct according to the letter of the law, so no doubt you were happy with that, but common sense dictates that the VAR should have been allowed to take into consideration how the ball came to strike Moura's arm in the first place.

One answer might be to allow the VAR a maximum of 30 seconds reviewing offsides, if it's still not clear and obvious after that the goal should stand.

In the case of handball the VAR should be allowed to use his judgement taking all relevant factors into consideration. If there is an overriding reason to either allow or disallow the goal then fine. Just apply the rules using common sense. A simple explanation as to how he made his decision is all that's needed.
 
Spur of the moment said:
It's this nonsensical approach that is undermining football as a spectator sport. Football is popular because it is thrilling, and never more so than when a goal is scored. No one denies that when there has been an obvious transgression a goal should be chalked off, but using technology to examine the minutiae of offside or handball to the exclusion of all else is making fools of the officials. Especially so when other more blatant transgressions in the build up are totally overlooked, such as when Kane's goal against Sheffield United was disallowed despite the blatant foul on Moura that resulted in him being penalised for handball.

In that instance the handball was technically correct according to the letter of the law, so no doubt you were happy with that, but common sense dictates that the VAR should have been allowed to take into consideration how the ball came to strike Moura's arm in the first place.

One answer might be to allow the VAR a maximum of 30 seconds reviewing offsides, if it's still not clear and obvious after that the goal should stand.

In the case of handball the VAR should be allowed to use his judgement taking all relevant factors into consideration. If there is an overriding reason to either allow or disallow the goal then fine. Just apply the rules using common sense. A simple explanation as to how he made his decision is all that's needed.
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I agree that the Moura handball was a ridiculous decision but the fault lay with the referee who didn't give a foul. My preference would be for the off field official to flag when the referee might want to look at an incident again on a screen to the side of the pitch and allow them to consider the whole passage of play.

The handball rule needs changing.
 
milo said:
I agree that the Moura handball was a ridiculous decision but the fault lay with the referee who didn't give a foul. My preference would be for the off field official to flag when the referee might want to look at an incident again on a screen to the side of the pitch and allow them to consider the whole passage of play.

The handball rule needs changing.
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I hate the idea of the ref having to go and look at the screen. As we saw in the WC It holds up play even longer and I remain cynical that with the home fans baying (once allowed back) the ref will suddenly now start making all the correct decisions. As I said in a previous post, when it comes to interpretation there's always enough scope to justify whatever decision you make, correct or otherwise.

The better solution is as outlined in my post. Plus maybe find a way to ensure the VAR is more independent because at present it seems they're reluctant to overturn a colleague's decision for whatever reason.

So perhaps an ideal role for recently retired referees?
 
Spur of the moment said:
I hate the idea of the ref having to go and look at the screen. As we saw in the WC It holds up play even longer and I remain cynical that with the home fans baying (once allowed back) the ref will suddenly now start making all the correct decisions. As I said in a previous post, when it comes to interpretation there's always enough scope to justify whatever decision you make, correct or otherwise.

The better solution is as outlined in my post. Plus maybe find a way to ensure the VAR is more independent because at present it seems they're reluctant to overturn a colleague's decision for whatever reason.

So perhaps an ideal role for recently retired referees?
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My preference for the match referee reviewing the decision is that you get some consistency. My biggest complaint of the first season of VAR is that referees duck difficult decisions because VAR is there and then they don't get overturned because there is not a clear and obvious error. I don't think the match referee taking a second look should take longer than VAR has this season.

I'd like the refs feed broadcast too, so we take away the ambiguity.
 
milo said:
My preference for the match referee reviewing the decision is that you get some consistency. My biggest complaint of the first season of VAR is that referees duck difficult decisions because VAR is there and then they don't get overturned because there is not a clear and obvious error. I don't think the match referee taking a second look should take longer than VAR has this season.

I'd like the refs feed broadcast too, so we take away the ambiguity.
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So are you saying the VAR need not be involved at all? As I understand it the VAR often needs to alert the ref to something he may have missed, so for the ref to then have to spend additional time marching to and fro the screen (and then STILL find a way to justify his original decision :rolleyes:), no thanks.

Personally I'd still prefer things to stay with the VAR. He has instant access and on the face of it far less distraction. But the authorities do need to do more to ensure he does his job properly in the first place.

Agree the feed should be broadcast in the stadium, accompanied by a concise reason for the verdict.
 
Spur of the moment said:
So are you saying the VAR need not be involved at all? As I understand it the VAR often needs to alert the ref to something he may have missed, so for the ref to then have to spend additional time marching to and fro the screen (and then STILL find a way to justify his original decision :rolleyes:), no thanks.

Personally I'd still prefer things to stay with the VAR. He has instant access and on the face of it far less distraction. But the authorities do need to do more to ensure he does his job properly in the first place.

Agree the feed should be broadcast in the stadium, accompanied by a concise reason for the verdict.
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I'd like all officials involvement to be as minimal as possible but major decisions to be got right. I haven't given a lot of thought into who should alert who or ask what.
 
Spur of the moment said:
So are you saying the VAR need not be involved at all? As I understand it the VAR often needs to alert the ref to something he may have missed, so for the ref to then have to spend additional time marching to and fro the screen (and then STILL find a way to justify his original decision :rolleyes:), no thanks.

Personally I'd still prefer things to stay with the VAR. He has instant access and on the face of it far less distraction. But the authorities do need to do more to ensure he does his job properly in the first place.

Agree the feed should be broadcast in the stadium, accompanied by a concise reason for the verdict.
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I like that idea and it could be educational for many (I include myself in that). I’ve never played the game myself and appreciate that I don’t always get the nuances of fouls, deliberate v careless v wreckless etc but like to think I keep up with the rules in general and have an overall understanding. But given what I hear, there are people that don’t have a clue why certain decisions are given and I’m all for more explanations being given.
 
Spur of the moment said:
It's this nonsensical approach that is undermining football as a spectator sport. Football is popular because it is thrilling, and never more so than when a goal is scored. No one denies that when there has been an obvious transgression a goal should be chalked off, but using technology to examine the minutiae of offside or handball to the exclusion of all else is making fools of the officials. Especially so when other more blatant transgressions in the build up are totally overlooked, such as when Kane's goal against Sheffield United was disallowed despite the blatant foul on Moura that resulted in him being penalised for handball.

In that instance the handball was technically correct according to the letter of the law, so no doubt you were happy with that, but common sense dictates that the VAR should have been allowed to take into consideration how the ball came to strike Moura's arm in the first place.

One answer might be to allow the VAR a maximum of 30 seconds reviewing offsides, if it's still not clear and obvious after that the goal should stand.

In the case of handball the VAR should be allowed to use his judgement taking all relevant factors into consideration. If there is an overriding reason to either allow or disallow the goal then fine. Just apply the rules using common sense. A simple explanation as to how he made his decision is all that's needed.
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Those are the offside rules. I'm not disagreeing about the length of time etc but offside is a black and white issue, either the player is offside or not. That is not down to VAR.
The handball rule, again that is the rule, not down to VAR.

Missing things like the foul on Kane against SU, that is plain and simply incompetent referring, from both the onfield and VAR officials.

All these are getting wrapped under one heading "it's VAR". If the rules are nonsense or not working, change them. If the refs are incompetent, punish them, replace them, train them until they are competent. Laying every issue at the feet of VAR is wrong and not looking at where the real issues are.

Is VAR perfect? No. Is the way the FA implemented it perfect? Hell no. But don't blame it for every woe in the game.
It has improved decision making and it will improve further, especially if it's taken out of the hands of the idiots at the FA and implemented correctly.
 
DubSpur said:
Those are the offside rules. I'm not disagreeing about the length of time etc but offside is a black and white issue, either the player is offside or not. That is not down to VAR.
The handball rule, again that is the rule, not down to VAR.

Missing things like the foul on Kane against SU, that is plain and simply incompetent referring, from both the onfield and VAR officials.

All these are getting wrapped under one heading "it's VAR". If the rules are nonsense or not working, change them. If the refs are incompetent, punish them, replace them, train them until they are competent. Laying every issue at the feet of VAR is wrong and not looking at where the real issues are.

Is VAR perfect? No. Is the way the FA implemented it perfect? Hell no. But don't blame it for every woe in the game.
It has improved decision making and it will improve further, especially if it's taken out of the hands of the idiots at the FA and implemented correctly.
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VAR destroys the spontaneity of celebrating a goal. Before, you had a quick look at the linesman and if his flags down you're all good. Now your're just worried about someone finding the smallest, debatable infringement two minutes later.
 
Doctor76 said:
VAR destroys the spontaneity of celebrating a goal. Before, you had a quick look at the linesman and if his flags down you're all good. Now your're just worried about someone finding the smallest, debatable infringement two minutes later.
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I think those that sit at home and watch games fail to understand that, and because of that it spoils the instant joy that you get when you are in a crowd and reacting to what you see in front of you.

I know several fans who are seriously thinking of packing in going too games because of FARse and they will be more with that feeling as long as it keeps fudging up their enjoyment.
 
DubSpur said:
Those are the offside rules. I'm not disagreeing about the length of time etc but offside is a black and white issue, either the player is offside or not. That is not down to VAR.
The handball rule, again that is the rule, not down to VAR.

Missing things like the foul on Kane against SU, that is plain and simply incompetent referring, from both the onfield and VAR officials.

All these are getting wrapped under one heading "it's VAR". If the rules are nonsense or not working, change them. If the refs are incompetent, punish them, replace them, train them until they are competent. Laying every issue at the feet of VAR is wrong and not looking at where the real issues are.

Is VAR perfect? No. Is the way the FA implemented it perfect? Hell no. But don't blame it for every woe in the game.
It has improved decision making and it will improve further, especially if it's taken out of the hands of the idiots at the FA and implemented correctly.
Click to expand...
Disagree that VAR has improved decision making.Quite the contrary, it has made it worse, if only because of (1) the ludicrous delay, especially after a goal has been scored and (2) the sheer number of high-profile mistakes that are even more grotesque given the technology they've used when the world and his wife can see how wrong they got it.

But to come back to the way the VAR is implementing the offside rule, something you have insisted you are totally comfortable with. I can only assume that for you the game is no longer about entertainment. We never had these decisions scrutinised down to milimeters before the VAR and there is no need for them to be now.

We need to see the bigger picture. The slide rule approach should be abolished. The VAR needs to take a quick look to see whether there was enough advantage to the attacker to disallow the goal, something he should be allowed to use his judgment on. Remember in every game there are dozens of other infringements eg pushing, grabbing, stamping and other incidents that go totally ignored/unpunished. Even throw-ins, how often do we see them taken ten, fifteen, even twenty yards from where the ball went out of play yet no one bats an eyelid. Contrast that with the obsession over offsides and you realise just how far we have ventured into Lewis Carroll territory.

It's totally farcical and is making football a complete turn-off.
 
It's as much this Alice in Wonderland logic whereby a clear and obvious mistake has been made in the lead up to a penalty decision (eg Joelion's impression of a flying fish winning the fk) can be completely ignored whilst a totally inadvertant 'handball' results in a goal to the offending side that is making blithering idiots out of the decision makers.
 
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