Transfer thread

[Bullet]

Kind of pointless to get into it, because it will go around in circles. But the man who didn't sanction the wages Mane and Wijnaldum wanted wasn't GHod, it was Levy. The man who dropped our Fernandes pursuit when it was clear he was desperate to come to us wasn't GHod, it was Levy. The man who didn't pay extra to sort the image rights for Dybala wasn't GHod, it was Levy. The man who fudged up the Grealish deal and bought absolutely no one, sabotaging our team down to the present day, wasn't GHod, it was Levy. Barkley, Schneiderlin, Rodriguez, Moreno, David Villa, Hulk, Moutinho...look back enough years and the number of players who we claimed to be in for but routinely cheaped out on starts resembling a pattern. All of it, when a bit more daring, as the club motto so hollowly proclaims, might have seen us cross the line under potentially the best manager we've ever had in the modern era, and before that, some of the best teams we ever had.

The man's a mediocre, risk-averse, penny-pinching administrator who used our own money (not a single penny of ENIC's) basically adequately but routinely shirked at the last when it came to giving our managers what they desperately asked for. But of course, that will go in circles too.

All that to say, I take issue with your characterization of those deals, is all. They weren't all Acts of GHod.

Mrs DubaiSpur in 4 years' time:

Kind of pointless to get into it, because it will go around in circles. But the man who didn't sanction the Chevy or the F150 I wanted wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who dropped our E-Class pursuit when it was clear the salesman was desperate to sell to us wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who didn't pay extra to seal the deal at the Saskatchewan lake house wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who fudged up the Lake Louise deal and bought absolutely nothing, sabotaging our holidays every summer to the present day, wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Moosonee, Hamilton, Ontario, Jasper...look back enough years and the number of houses we claimed to be in for but routinely cheaped out on starts resembling a pattern. All of it, when a bit more daring, as my husband's mantra so hollowly proclaims, might have seen us cross the line under potentially the best time of our lives.

The man's a mediocre, risk-averse, penny-pinching administrator who used our own money (not a single penny of his father's) basically adequately but routinely shirked at the last when it came to buying the holiday home we desperately need. But of course, that will go in circles too.

All that to say, I take issue with your characterization of those deals, is all. They weren't all Acts of GHod

 

[braineclipse]

Quite interesting article on the Athletic on Hojbjerg. Based on Everton and their reported interest, and their current shortcomings. Mentions that we are reportedly frontrunners.

Gives some stats making him look rather impressive particularly defensively, but also in terms of his passing.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Mrs DubaiSpur in 4 years' time:

Kind of pointless to get into it, because it will go around in circles. But the man who didn't sanction the Chevy or the F150 I wanted wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who dropped our E-Class pursuit when it was clear the salesman was desperate to sell to us wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who didn't pay extra to seal the deal at the Saskatchewan lake house wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. The man who fudged up the Lake Louise deal and bought absolutely nothing, sabotaging our holidays every summer to the present day, wasn't GHod, it was DubaiSpur. Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Moosonee, Hamilton, Ontario, Jasper...look back enough years and the number of houses we claimed to be in for but routinely cheaped out on starts resembling a pattern. All of it, when a bit more daring, as my husband's mantra so hollowly proclaims, might have seen us cross the line under potentially the best time of our lives.

The man's a mediocre, risk-averse, penny-pinching administrator who used our own money (not a single penny of his father's) basically adequately but routinely shirked at the last when it came to buying the holiday home we desperately need. But of course, that will go in circles too.

All that to say, I take issue with your characterization of those deals, is all. They weren't all Acts of GHod

This is uncomfortably close to some of the conversations I had with my ex, tbh.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Our money?

Sigh

ENIC own Spurs, it’s their money.

Also, that list of players, in most cases, thank GHod we didn’t buy them, they mostly turned out to be not good enough. I’ll give you Mane, Dybala and Mountinho, but the rest turned out to be no better than what we already had.

It isn't their money, and we don't support ENIC, mate - we support Spurs. The club and ENIC are largely (and functionally) separate entities. Tottenham Hotspur earns money from matchday income, commercial revenue and TV revenue, all of which is paid by fans, sponsors and broadcasters to watch (and support) Tottenham Hotspur - not ENIC. And that money, the club's money, is what Levy has basically semi-competently managed to get us some good infrastructure. ENIC's fortune (well, Levy and Lewis' fortune) is entirely immaterial to Spurs as a self-contained entity, because the two have never, ever interacted - they haven't spent a penny on us, but they also haven't taken money out of the club apart from Levy's inflated salary.

If you start looking at the club's money and operations as ENIC's, then it's a bit of a worrying slope to thinking ENIC are justified in taking money out of the club - which no owner is justified in doing, across football. That Levy and ENIC aren't a 0 out of ten is because, well, at least they haven't done that. Yet.

As for the list of players, we don't know the counterfactual, so it's not really fair to say. AVB wanted Moutinho, Villa, and Hulk - he got none of them. Lord only knows how he would have done with even one of them. Poch wanted an array of affordable, gettable players from lower sides - got almost none of them, and Lord knows how much more successful he would have been with some of them. That their careers divulged the way they did doesn't mean they wouldn't have been perfect for us - especially given that, in some cases (Moreno and Schneiderlin, for instance), we cheaped out on them and bought bargain basement rubbish like Stambouli and Fazio instead, who were summarily awful and shipped off within a year. We saw our alternatives to those signings - they were even worse.

 

[braineclipse]

It isn't their money, and we don't support ENIC, mate - we support Spurs. The club and ENIC are largely (and functionally) separate entities. Tottenham Hotspur earns money from matchday income, commercial revenue and TV revenue, all of which is paid by fans, sponsors and broadcasters to watch (and support) Tottenham Hotspur - not ENIC. And that money, the club's money, is what Levy has basically semi-competently managed to get us some good infrastructure. ENIC's fortune (well, Levy and Lewis' fortune) is entirely immaterial to Spurs as a self-contained entity, because the two have never, ever interacted - they haven't spent a penny on us, but they also haven't taken money out of the club apart from Levy's inflated salary.

If you start looking at the club's money and operations as ENIC's, then it's a bit of a worrying slope to thinking ENIC are justified in taking money out of the club - which no owner is justified in doing, across football. That Levy and ENIC aren't a 0 out of ten is because, well, at least they haven't done that. Yet.

As for the list of players, we don't know the counterfactual, so it's not really fair to say. AVB wanted Moutinho, Villa, and Hulk - he got none of them. Lord only knows how he would have done with even one of them. Poch wanted an array of affordable, gettable players from lower sides - got almost none of them, and Lord knows how much more successful he would have been with some of them. That their careers divulged the way they did doesn't mean they wouldn't have been perfect for us - especially given that, in some cases (Moreno and Schneiderlin, for instance), we cheaped out on them and bought bargain basement rubbish like Stambouli and Fazio instead, who were summarily awful and shipped off within a year. We saw our alternatives to those signings - they were even worse.

0 out of 10... Not a 0 out of 10 by that alone. I don't know what to say.

You're right that we don't know the counterfactual. We don't know which of our successful signings we wouldn't have been able to make had we spent more on the player we wanted and didn't get.

It's easy to get hung up on a "what if" on players we didn't sign that turned out great elsewhere. Easier to forget the "lucky escapes", and easier to take for granted the successful signings we did make.

There are other clubs that have been better than us in the transfer market. If argue they've only very rarely been better at it than us over a larger sample size, though there are examples. Mainly examples of clubs in rather different situations than us.

Out of curiosity how would you rate our transfer dealings out of 10? Talking about players actually signed.

 

[Baleforce]

It isn't their money, and we don't support ENIC, mate - we support Spurs. The club and ENIC are largely (and functionally) separate entities. Tottenham Hotspur earns money from matchday income, commercial revenue and TV revenue, all of which is paid by fans, sponsors and broadcasters to watch (and support) Tottenham Hotspur - not ENIC. And that money, the club's money, is what Levy has basically semi-competently managed to get us some good infrastructure. ENIC's fortune (well, Levy and Lewis' fortune) is entirely immaterial to Spurs as a self-contained entity, because the two have never, ever interacted - they haven't spent a penny on us, but they also haven't taken money out of the club apart from Levy's inflated salary.

If you start looking at the club's money and operations as ENIC's, then it's a bit of a worrying slope to thinking ENIC are justified in taking money out of the club - which no owner is justified in doing, across football. That Levy and ENIC aren't a 0 out of ten is because, well, at least they haven't done that. Yet.

As for the list of players, we don't know the counterfactual, so it's not really fair to say. AVB wanted Moutinho, Villa, and Hulk - he got none of them. Lord only knows how he would have done with even one of them. Poch wanted an array of affordable, gettable players from lower sides - got almost none of them, and Lord knows how much more successful he would have been with some of them. That their careers divulged the way they did doesn't mean they wouldn't have been perfect for us - especially given that, in some cases (Moreno and Schneiderlin, for instance), we cheaped out on them and bought bargain basement rubbish like Stambouli and Fazio instead, who were summarily awful and shipped off within a year. We saw our alternatives to those signings - they were even worse.

I’m confused, what more do you want them to do?


They’ve overseen a self sustaining rise from relegation possibles to CL probables in twenty years and built an incredible training centre and stadium along the way, who else has done that?

We have a solid platform for future success, you don’t build a house on sand.

I ask again, if they sell up what do you think happens next, which business that could afford us would run things differently?

 

[StephenH]

I think they could sell a % to raise transfer funds but not sell up.

 

[Baleforce]

I think they could sell a % to raise transfer funds but not sell up.

I don’t see how a deal could be done that’s good enough for both sides of that. Adds complication for future sale and what would they have to give up to guarantee a return for the investors?

 

[Baleforce]

Also, cash injections to gamble on signing players isn’t good business, we are not a charity. We need to stand on our own feet, not rely on gifts to be competitive, that’s unstable and unpredictable.

 

[StephenH]

Also, cash injections to gamble on signing players isn’t good business, we are not a charity. We need to stand on our own feet, not rely on gifts to be competitive, that’s unstable and unpredictable.

I believe we need to keep moving forward and new players are a gamble whoever is paying the bill.
Covid19 has all none doped clubs in a difficult place ATM.

 

[Baleforce]

I believe we need to keep moving forward and new players are a gamble whoever is paying the bill.
Covid19 has all none doped clubs in a difficult place ATM.

Yep, so reduce the risk factor as much as we can, which is what we always do.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I’m confused, what more do you want them to do?

They’ve overseen a self sustaining rise from relegation possibles to CL probables in twenty years and built an incredible training centre and stadium along the way, who else has done that?

We have a solid platform for future success, you don’t build a house on sand.

I ask again, if they sell up what do you think happens next, which business that could afford us would run things differently?

'CL probables'? Come on, mate. We're about to finish somewhere between 6th and 10th after sacking the best manager we've had in 50 years because he couldn't make his squad work any more after years of underinvestment, neglect and outright sabotage by the chairman.

ENIC built a stadium, with our money. They built a training ground, with our money. Both are facts, both are undoubtedly true.

They have won nothing but one League Cup in 20 years. This is our worst trophyless run since the 1940s - in fact, even including the awful 90s, the 20 years leading up to ENIC were far more successful for us than the 20 years of their pathetically underinvested ownership have been. Those are also facts, and also true. And many, many clubs have won things in that time, putting our constant failures in an even more unflattering light.

That's why, on the balance, they have been semi-competent - 5/10, mediocre administrators. The excellent infrastructure built on Spurs' own revenue is balanced out by their utter underinvestment in the team on the pitch.

As for what I think happens next, it's different from what I hope happens next. What I hope happens next - we end up bought by an FSG-type, a set of far better owners without particularly shady backgrounds who understand that some investment on their end can boost the club to levels that it could scarcely dream of beforehand - who treat winning trophies as the aim, instead of risk-averse doddering about.

We've seen it happen at Liverpool. It can happen here.

What I think happens next? They sell us to some equally unambitious penny-pinching administrators - like attracts like, after all. Who will invest not a penny of their own money, and things proceed as normal - 20 trophyless years become 40 trophyless years, and in 2042 @parklane1 will still be about praying to Levy and warning about the bad old 1990s.

But, even then, there will at least be a change, and a moment of dreaming that we can break the shackles and take the risks that will push us over the line. That dream is a beautiful thing, and worth pursuing, even if it remains just that.

Yep, so reduce the risk factor as much as we can, which is what we always do.

Maybe we should put that up on the boards around the stadium, then. Take down that 'To Dare is To Do' rubbish, put up 'Reduce the Risk Factor As Much as We Can'. Less catchy, but far more accurate as to what our operating philosophy is.

 

[DubaiSpur]

0 out of 10... Not a 0 out of 10 by that alone. I don't know what to say.

They're not 0 out of 10 - they would have been, if they'd taken money out of the club. At this time, they're probably a 5 out of 10 - 6, if you're being exceptionally generous, imo. Just average and somewhat pointless in most ways.

You're right that we don't know the counterfactual. We don't know which of our successful signings we wouldn't have been able to make had we spent more on the player we wanted and didn't get.

It's easy to get hung up on a "what if" on players we didn't sign that turned out great elsewhere. Easier to forget the "lucky escapes", and easier to take for granted the successful signings we did make.

There are other clubs that have been better than us in the transfer market. If argue they've only very rarely been better at it than us over a larger sample size, though there are examples. Mainly examples of clubs in rather different situations than us.

Out of curiosity how would you rate our transfer dealings out of 10? Talking about players actually signed.

The players we actually signed? Depends on the window, really.

Summer 2010, January 2011 - 6.5 on 10. Some great hits like VDV and Sandro, a dependable free transfer in Gallas. However, critical investments in a powerful, line-leading striker were not made, and the Crouch/Defoe partnership dried up in effectiveness that year. Loss at end of window.

Summer 2011, January 2012 - 2.5 on 10. A couple of good deals in the summer in Adebayor and Parker, and then some utterly useless freebies in Saha and Nelsen when a little bit of investment in quality would have pushed us over the line in January 2012. Major profit at end of window.

Summer 2012 - January 2013. 5 out of 10 - a mixed bag. Some long-term successes in Lloris and Dembele, but missed out on the players AVB desperately wanted because Levy cheaped out (Moutinho, Hulk), and their replacements (Sigurdsson, Dempsey) were inadequate and quickly moved on. Minor profit at end of window.

Summer 2013 - January 2014. 3.5 out of 10. The only one of the Fab Seven AVB actually wanted as a first choice, as I recall, was Paulinho. Everyone else was a bit of a crap substitute for a player he actually wanted (Villa, Benteke, Hulk again, Witsel, etc.). And they failed accordingly - Eriksen and (perhaps) Lamela aside. Minor profit at end of window.

Summer 2014 - January 2015 - 1 out of 10. Sort of an early warning sign for Poch about how Levy would operate. He came in wanting Schneiderlin (who put in a transfer request and kicked up a fuss to move to us), Jay Rodriguez and Hector Moreno. Got absolutely none of them, ended up with the useless bargain bin Stambouli and Fazio, who were both unceremoniously booted out after a year. Minor profit at end of window.

Summer 2015 - January 2016. 7.5 out of 10. Probably Levy's best transfer window, and his ideal - ended up making a profit on it at the end. Brought in Son, Toby, Trippier and Wimmer - the former three would prove crucial cogs in Poch's best sides in the coming years. Lost out on a number of other first choices (Berahino chief among them, but whatever). Minor profit at end of window.

Summer 2016 - January 2017 - 4 out of 10. Pretty sub-par windows. Bought Wanyama, which was great - lost out on Mane and Wijnaldum, and ended up with a panic buy in Sissoko, which was not. Cheaped out on our striker targets, ended up with Janssen. Loss at end of window.

Summer 2017 - January 2018. 3.5 out of 10 - Beginning of the end. A great buy in Sanchez, overshadowed by the loss of Walker and replacement with Aurier. Good pickup of Llorente, marred by the bargain bin pickup of N'Koudou instead of a proper winger. Got Lucas to compensate in January, but the damage at the start of the season had been done. Minor profit at end of window.

Summer 2018 - January 2019 - 0 out of 10 - if it made sense to give this window a negative, I would. A cowardly dereliction of duty, self-sabotage of the highest order by our penny-pinching, risk-averse leader. Signed no one, and we are still paying for it now. Minor profit at end of window - obviously.

Summer 2019 - January 2020. 5 out of 10. Tried to make up for years of underinvestment, bought a great player in Lo Celso, two unknowns in Bergwijn and Sessegnon, and a struggling, increasingly at-risk player in Ndombele. Major loss at end of window - probably the first one in ten years.

 

[Grays_1890]

Our money?

Sigh

ENIC own Spurs, it’s their money.

Also, that list of players, in most cases, thank GHod we didn’t buy them, they mostly turned out to be not good enough. I’ll give you Mane, Dybala and Mountinho, but the rest turned out to be no better than what we already had.

Dybala was using the club on his U.K. tour to strengthen his place at Juve following Ronaldos arrival...it worked and he had a prominent season

 

[Baleforce]

'CL probables'? Come on, mate. We're about to finish somewhere between 6th and 10th after sacking the best manager we've had in 50 years because he couldn't make his squad work any more after years of underinvestment, neglect and outright sabotage by the chairman.

A one season aberration, we've been consistently expected (betting odds/press) to finish top 4 for the last few years. We were third favourites for the title at the start of this season. Since we made the managerial change we have picked up the fourth highest number of points.

ENIC built a stadium, with our money. They built a training ground, with our money. Both are facts, both are undoubtedly true.

It's not our money, it's not your money, it's not my money, it's the clubs money, and it's been spent on things which the club desperately needed. That stadium doubles our match day income and gives us new revenue streams on non match days, it will more than cover the expense in time.

They have won nothing but one League Cup in 20 years. This is our worst trophyless run since the 1940s - in fact, even including the awful 90s, the 20 years leading up to ENIC were far more successful for us than the 20 years of their pathetically underinvested ownership have been. Those are also facts, and also true. And many, many clubs have won things in that time, putting our constant failures in an even more unflattering light.

The level of the trophies on offer has changed, the domestic cups have zero value now, winning either does nothing to improve the standing of the club, being in the CL is all that matters.

That's why, on the balance, they have been semi-competent - 5/10, mediocre administrators. The excellent infrastructure built on Spurs' own revenue is balanced out by their utter underinvestment in the team on the pitch.

Thats how football is supposed to work, clubs are supposed to improve their infrastructure based on revenue, doing it with money from other sources is cheating.

As for what I think happens next, it's different from what I hope happens next. What I hope happens next - we end up bought by an FSG-type, a set of far better owners without particularly shady backgrounds who understand that some investment on their end can boost the club to levels that it could scarcely dream of beforehand - who treat winning trophies as the aim, instead of risk-averse doddering about.

We've seen it happen at Liverpool. It can happen here.

Their ownership is very shady, they got involved with liverpool for a start, also, Henry made a lot of money whilst the hedge fund he managed lost a lot of money for its clients and went out of business.

What I think happens next? They sell us to some equally unambitious penny-pinching administrators - like attracts like, after all. Who will invest not a penny of their own money, and things proceed as normal - 20 trophyless years become 40 trophyless years, and in 2042 @parklane1 will still be about praying to Levy and warning about the bad old 1990s.

But, even then, there will at least be a change, and a moment of dreaming that we can break the shackles and take the risks that will push us over the line. That dream is a beautiful thing, and worth pursuing, even if it remains just that.

Can you not see the potential of the current course? If this works we'll be bullet proof. I'm not interested in a few pots here and there, highs and lows, I want total domination, this is the only path that can take us there.

Maybe we should put that up on the boards around the stadium, then. Take down that 'To Dare is To Do' rubbish, put up 'Reduce the Risk Factor As Much as We Can'. Less catchy, but far more accurate as to what our operating philosophy is.

Honesty is always the best policy. I'd go with "Value in the market, ROIYS"

Answers inline in bold.

 

[Grays_1890]

We all make mistakes in our life and Levy is no different and none of us are above criticism. However there are a small number of fans who can not wait to have a go at what he has done here ( which is not a lot is it ), but it takes all sorts i guess.

He makes mistakes 100% no one denies that, it’s the mistakes he makes that people try and pretend others don’t that tickle me.

Emirates Marketing Project have made huge mistakes in the transfer market as have Chelsea, what covers their backs is the ability to double down on duds and buy 5 CBS for 2 spots because 3 of them have flopped.

Plenty of the Sinclair And Bonys in the world where they have wasted 100s of millions.

 

[Baleforce]

Dybala was using the club on his U.K. tour to strengthen his place at Juve following Ronaldos arrival...it worked and he had a prominent season

Could well be the case, my point was simply that he would have been a good signing.

When these lists of “missed opportunities” are produced I always feel they are more “bullets dodged”.

 

[parklane1]

As for the list of players, we don't know the counterfactual, so it's not really fair to say. AVB wanted Moutinho, Villa, and Hulk - he got none of them. Lord only knows how he would have done with even one of them. Poch wanted an array of affordable, gettable players from lower sides - got almost none of them, and Lord knows how much more successful he would have been with some of them. That their careers divulged the way they did doesn't mean they wouldn't have been perfect for us - especially given that, in some cases (Moreno and Schneiderlin, for instance), we cheaped out on them and bought bargain basement rubbish like Stambouli and Fazio instead, who were summarily awful and shipped off within a year. We saw our alternatives to those signings - they were even worse.

To say that its not fair to say AVB wanted certain players, but then some fans come on here frothing at the mouth to say Levy should/could have signed this that and the other player. You could not make it up. Haters will always be haters.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Fans like @galeforce have actually convinced themselves that winning trophies isn’t important at the same time we’ve started to become rubbish at winning them. Hell of a coincidence. Things like the net spend league table and the calendar year table are far more important than trophies.

 

[tw12yid]

Would have been interesting to see our transfer policy this summer if not for Covid.
Loss of 5 home games,
Rugby,
Boxing,
Gig,
Nfl

Plus decreased attendances next season.

Probably some other stuff I’ve missed.

Must make a reasonable dent on the income.