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*** Tottenham v Man U OMT***

Junior19 said:
I have several issues with the manner in which we lost yesterday, beyond the fact that we lost.

Losing at Old Trafford in it self is such a routine exercise for Spurs, that it should not surprise anyone. However, to concede the game in such a manner without making _any_ visible effort to try to change the game, introduce _any_ new elements, or make _any_ adjustments once it was blatantly obvious that Plan A didn't work is nigh on criminal neglect by Conte.

A blind man, robbed of his dog and cane, could see that Bissouma was singled out. Manchester Uniteds front and middle pressed very high and tight on every one of our players, except Bissouma. Yet, he was the one who misplaced most passes. Makes sense also, force the presumptive least creative player to be creative, makes it easier to force mistakes.

Ok, so he was the odd man out, and he also failed to be effective as screen for the defenders. If we identified this already in the first half, why on earth didn't we do anything before 80th minute? It was obvious that we weren't going to dominate the midfield, so let us rather concede that, and convert back to the regular 3-4-3, or 3-4-1-2 as we eventually did and at least _try_ to force the game to change a bit? Or replace Bissouma with a player with different creativity, ie Skipp? It clearly could not get that much worse?

I'm concerned that Conte's stubbornness when it comes to "Plan A is right, we don't need a plan B. And those guys on the bench are not good enough for Plan A anyway!" will alienate players, and eventually become a huge problem.

Now. We lost at Old Trafford. Not a big deal in the long run. But we also capitulated at Old Trafford. That is a big deal.
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I think the only thing I disagree with is that they never left Bissouma alone either, he certainly had a bit more time and space, but not much more. But yes, they knew if he was targeted it'd be easier as he is still not quite there yet in our system. I was surprised that, at 1-0 down, he didn't revert to his favorite system? Playing football manager here, could he have gone for it by replacing Perisic with Lucas, deployed Lucas at WB, hauled Bissouma and brought on Gil for a 3-4-3? If ever there was a game where Gil 'might' have had some joy dribbling it was last night, especially as there were a couple of Utd on yellows. Easy from the seats I appreciate, but I did find myself wondering...
 
metalgear said:
Disregarding the formation we are a very slow team. Man U pressed and won most of the time.

Perisic's crosses are a nice way of cedeing possession, especially as Man U were resolute in defence. Don't see any training routines there, thought Kane would benefit from Perisic the most, but not much so far.

Troubling to watch our close control too. Looks like strangers playing with strangers, I get the feeling we don't practice much.
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Our speed is all about transition, and Utd stopped that high up the pitch and in the channels, forcing us to play backwards and across because neither WB is particularly adept at taking a man on. Of course, the one time Doherty did, he was fouled and we had a free-kick in dangerous area!!!

I think if we'd given Kane some crosses into the box for headers, it might've been a better thing? The close-control/touch had been odd for sometime, as for practice I have sympathy as with three games a week it is all about recovery. I maintain that several of our side are close to the redline in terms of potential injuries.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I think both of you are missing the root cause of the issue here. We were pinned deep in our half and being pressed effectively, there were no real passes on for our midfield. Any midfielder would’ve looked poor in that situation. You can’t be trying to play balls into feet to a central striker, closely marked facing their own goal. Casemero (who I thought was excellent last night) would’ve struggled just as much if he was playing in our team last night.

The main issue for Spurs is that we play with 3 CBs as we don’t have any defenders good enough to play in a two and at least two of the three players playing in the back 3 aren’t great passers of the ball. We’re therefore naturally deep and naturally outnumbered in midfield.
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Absolutely! A massive issue. If ever there was a game where we missed Kulusevski, possibly the only player we have who can receive the ball in those circumstances and still turn it into an opportunity. I would go one step further and saying asking Kane to play that way all night is asking for an injury. Moura and Gil were the closest we had to line-breakers and I'd have been looking to have them both on the pitch for at least half the second-half. Again, I am no fan of Moura, but...
 
braineclipse said:
We play with 3 centre backs because we hired Conte, not because of any particular shortcoming of our centre backs.

Playing three centre backs is in no way an issue. Nor is playing deep in general.

Two best attacking players on the pitch for us - Son and Kane. That's good.
Third best - Perisic. That's fine.
Fourth best? Doherty? Bentancur? Hojbjerg? Romero? Seriously. Who was our fourth best attacking player, even on paper? That's rather obviously only going to work just in some circumstances.

Good news is that this is not what Conte wants. This was thy emergency option with Kulusevski and Richarlison out, Lucas just back from injury.
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This is the silver lining. Still wish he'd decided to go for it a bit at 1 down and see what Gil could do in a pressure situation...
 
thfcsteff said:
I think the only thing I disagree with is that they never left Bissouma alone either, he certainly had a bit more time and space, but not much more. But yes, they knew if he was targeted it'd be easier as he is still not quite there yet in our system. I was surprised that, at 1-0 down, he didn't revert to his favorite system? Playing football manager here, could he have gone for it by replacing Perisic with Lucas, deployed Lucas at WB, hauled Bissouma and brought on Gil for a 3-4-3? If ever there was a game where Gil 'might' have had some joy dribbling it was last night, especially as there were a couple of Utd on yellows. Easy from the seats I appreciate, but I did find myself wondering...
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Quite agree, the phrase "time and space" is of course relative, nobody really got a lot of space, it was just really obvious that they had a plan, and that plan had a big, red X marked over Bissouma. We've seen teams do this before, they target the weakest link not by pressuring him directly, but by forcing him to do tasks he is ill suited to.
Leave him enough space to be the available outlet for the others, but pressure him enough to force mistakes.

It is a common enough strategy, and my main beef with our game management is that we just folded to it. By doing something, anything, at least we would have signalled back to Ten Hag that we've seen his plan, and here is our response. Now make a new plan.
 
Junior19 said:
Quite agree, the phrase "time and space" is of course relative, nobody really got a lot of space, it was just really obvious that they had a plan, and that plan had a big, red X marked over Bissouma. We've seen teams do this before, they target the weakest link not by pressuring him directly, but by forcing him to do tasks he is ill suited to.
Leave him enough space to be the available outlet for the others, but pressure him enough to force mistakes.

It is a common enough strategy, and my main beef with our game management is that we just folded to it. By doing something, anything, at least we would have signalled back to Ten Hag that we've seen his plan, and here is our response. Now make a new plan.
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Bissouma is good when pressed. He is very good technically
But… he is playing for us like he is a rabbit in the headlights. Playing within himself almost and it’s not showing the beat of him
 
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Bishop said:
To play the Antonio Conte way we are going to need some midfielders that are capable of receiving a pass under pressure, with their back to goal. Or hopefully with superior natural movement to be in a position to receive a better pass in the first place. It's about the natural attributes suited to certain roles and positions in a side. He might be " defensive positioned" but his intentions will differ. An Eriksen for United this season if you will.
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Eriksen has been caught out and lost possession in that exact situation several times this season already, 3 or 4 of them leading to goals.
 
thfcsteff said:
This is the silver lining. Still wish he'd decided to go for it a bit at 1 down and see what Gil could do in a pressure situation...
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He doesnt trust Gil, that much is obvious. If he did he would have got more minutes recently with the injuries we have had. He gets a five minute cameo at best in a game where the result is pretty much a given. Moura returning now and hopefully Kulu aswell, the clamour for Gil rightly or wrongly is pointless.....
 
harr1984 said:
He doesnt trust Gil, that much is obvious. If he did he would have got more minutes recently with the injuries we have had. He gets a five minute cameo at best in a game where the result is pretty much a given. Moura returning now and hopefully Kulu aswell, the clamour for Gil rightly or wrongly is pointless.....
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It is
He needs to get in the fudging gym and build the body of a sportsman and athlete
It’s on him
 
harr1984 said:
He doesnt trust Gil, that much is obvious. If he did he would have got more minutes recently with the injuries we have had. He gets a five minute cameo at best in a game where the result is pretty much a given. Moura returning now and hopefully Kulu aswell, the clamour for Gil rightly or wrongly is pointless.....
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I agree, but in these moments, maybe desperation can be the mother of invention?
 
Kandi1977 said:
Eriksen has been caught out and lost possession in that exact situation several times this season already, 3 or 4 of them leading to goals.
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I'm not really asking for Eriksen, he was just a name to mind with due to the United connection. I don't even want an actual AM there just a player with a bit better technique and better use of the ball. There are lots of them out there and no doubt the question is whether they can still offer enough defensively, but if we are going to end up deep we need to be able to pass the ball better while deep. That does include the CBs and keeper who all contribute to the lack of care.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk
 
Bishop said:
I'm not really asking for Eriksen, he was just a name to mind with due to the United connection. I don't even want an actual AM there just a player with a bit better technique and better use of the ball. There are lots of them out there and no doubt the question is whether they can still offer enough defensively, but if we are going to end up deep we need to be able to pass the ball better while deep. That does include the CBs and keeper who all contribute to the lack of care.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk
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My point was that it doesn't matter which player it is. if the opponent press hard, don't play it to them facing goal on the 16 yard line.
 
Kandi1977 said:
My point was that it doesn't matter which player it is. if the opponent press hard, don't play it to them facing goal on the 16 yard line.
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If we are to play this sit deep system then we have to maximise the player attributes in the key areas. It means improving on the use of the ball in the back line. That means ultimately Dier, Davies and Lloris will need to be improved upon as will at least one of the CMs. Better use of the ball will help beat the press, allow the WBs to move forward and open space for more transition play. If instead we stay as we are with 3 of the back and keeper being poor users of the ball we will never be able to handle any sort of press. That's if we accept this is the way Conte WILL line up.

My personal preference is for a back 4 but accepting he's not going to play that. Then we need to maximise how we do play his preferred system.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk
 
They were impressive. More energy and once it started working for them they were buoyed. We started okay and created some openings. But after that they stifled us completely. We need a few more problems for teams to deal with. Currently you mark Kane and Son and press the rest. Our WB are not scary. Our CBs never a genuine threat in possession or on goal. And the midfield is competent rather than creative. But it was the first time we started this system. Can the 3 in the middle develop? Yes. They need a few more one-touch passes and movement to open things up.

Then we need a WB with serious pace - at least on one side so the opposition have to cover this. Slate Traore all we like having him on the right would distract one opposition player to cover his pace and make more space. And that is often the difference.

It is only 3 points, and if we win tomorrow it will be quickly forgotten.
 
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So many excuses for the midfield that they were pressed and couldn't play out because it was too dangerous etc. Look at Brighton against City today. City are miles ahead of Utd in both pressing and quality of player, yet Brighton constantly managed to play out from the back successfully. They have a keeper who is comfortable on the ball and midfielders that support each other and are able to play quick simple passes. Unfortunately it appears that we have neither at the moment.
 
SpurMeUp said:
They were impressive. More energy and once it started working for them they were buoyed. We started okay and created some openings. But after that they stifled us completely. We need a few more problems for teams to deal with. Currently you mark Kane and Son and press the rest. Our WB are not scary. Our CBs never a genuine threat in possession or on goal. And the midfield is competent rather than creative. But it was the first time we started this system. Can the 3 in the middle develop? Yes. They need a few more one-touch passes and movement to open things up.

Then we need a WB with serious pace - at least on one side so the opposition have to cover this. Slate Traore all we like having him on the right would distract one opposition player to cover his pace and make more space. And that is often the difference.

It is only 3 points, and if we win tomorrow it will be quickly forgotten.
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Traore in that game would have been as effective as son and Kane… not effective
We have our Traore equivalent in Moura. We can’t carry another player who can’t pass
 
Pirate55 said:
This is my worry too . Not just Kane but others too. I fear the Richarlison scare may have really shaken them up.
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I find it impossible to believe the world cup is a bigger deal to them than the PL or the CL, yes its a holiday, but surely they can afford a more fun one that Qatar.
 
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