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Timo Werner

Raziel said:
I think this is the point

- Ideally we would buy an upgrade (if available), Werner would provide a decent option while that person adapts to us and/or backup.

Personally I don't see it as a priority unless our plan is to leave Son in center. Biggest issue to @Bedfordspurs comment is we need more cover in midfield to cut the GA out.
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Actually the number of goals we have conceded because of the high line is 2
We have conceded 10 from set pieces and scored 8
Maybe what we need is a giant at DM who can defend set pieces and score a few
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Actually the number of goals we have conceded because of the high line is 2
We have conceded 10 from set pieces and scored 8
Maybe what we need is a giant at DM who can defend set pieces and score a few
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We have conceded 44 goals in 30 matches, worst in top 3 is 29

Need a deeper breakdown than yours, whats the other 32?
 
Raziel said:
We have conceded 44 goals in 30 matches, worst in top 3 is 29

Need a deeper breakdown than yours, whats the other 32?
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Dunno
It was on a podcast earlier
What were not conceding are what I’d call good goals
We’re conceding very avoidable ones
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Actually the number of goals we have conceded because of the high line is 2
We have conceded 10 from set pieces and scored 8
Maybe what we need is a giant at DM who can defend set pieces and score a few
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Not true, direct counters might be 2 but many of the goals conceded have been in large part because of a high line and the transition to getting back into position afterwards.

Look the way we play means we will always be somewhat open at the back, teams will always have opportunities to counter, we will always make risky passes at the back or in midfield and we will get caught out occasionally, that is the nature of the system.

What the system requires are top quality forwards who can take that first chance that falls their way, forwards who can outscore their xG, It requires player who can thread the ball through the eye of the needle, players who can beat their opponent and direct create and play a precision pass and players who great in possession under pressure.

Werner is none of these things and what's what we need along with a better DM and better concentration but under Ange we will never be a team that shuts the opposition out through pure quality defensive play. It's going to be done by controlling possesion not just in our half but also in and around the opposition box. No slack passes, just precision, It's going to be done by punishing teams every time there is opening, these are things we can't do right now which is fine because it's the early stages but a Werner as a starter isn't going take any closer to the final form.
 
Bishop said:
Not true, direct counters might be 2 but many of the goals conceded have been in large part because of a high line and the transition to getting back into position afterwards.

Look the way we play means we will always be somewhat open at the back, teams will always have opportunities to counter, we will always make risky passes at the back or in midfield and we will get caught out occasionally, that is the nature of the system.

What the system requires are top quality forwards who can take that first chance that falls their way, forwards who can outscore their xG, It requires player who can thread the ball through the eye of the needle, players who can beat their opponent and direct create and play a precision pass and players who great in possession under pressure.

Werner is none of these things and what's what we need along with a better DM and better concentration but under Ange we will never be a team that shuts the opposition out through pure quality defensive play. It's going to be done by controlling possesion not just in our half but also in and around the opposition box. No slack passes, just precision, It's going to be done by punishing teams every time there is opening, these are things we can't do right now which is fine because it's the early stages but a Werner as a starter isn't going take any closer to the final form.
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So two separate conversations

- First on the conceding, agree but having a midfielder that can provide a greater level of cover (see Rodri at City where they are similarly often open) makes a difference

- Re Werner, I get you don't rate him, but I disagree with your assessment about fit to the system
-----> Ange's system isn't about top quality forwards (Ange has never had WC forwards that I'm aware of, Jota at Celtic managed 11 league goals in his best season, Kyogo is 29 and had one standout season with Ange which indicates system vs. player).
-----> His model (for us, in game and in practice as well), is fast wingers that go wide, to the line and provide one of two crosses, either the cutback to Striker who does a tap in (lot of Richi's goals this season), or a strait cross to other side of box where the opposite winger and/or FB coming in (Johnson has actually scored from exactly this scenario last game and in the Luton game Werner forced the OG as a result of his positioning again in the same scenario.

Again not arguing is he's upgradeable but he does fit the system and is good depth (and that's where this squad is getting better, having a bench matters)
 
Bishop said:
Not true, direct counters might be 2 but many of the goals conceded have been in large part because of a high line and the transition to getting back into position afterwards.

Look the way we play means we will always be somewhat open at the back, teams will always have opportunities to counter, we will always make risky passes at the back or in midfield and we will get caught out occasionally, that is the nature of the system.

What the system requires are top quality forwards who can take that first chance that falls their way, forwards who can outscore their xG, It requires player who can thread the ball through the eye of the needle, players who can beat their opponent and direct create and play a precision pass and players who great in possession under pressure.

Werner is none of these things and what's what we need along with a better DM and better concentration but under Ange we will never be a team that shuts the opposition out through pure quality defensive play. It's going to be done by controlling possesion not just in our half but also in and around the opposition box. No slack passes, just precision, It's going to be done by punishing teams every time there is opening, these are things we can't do right now which is fine because it's the early stages but a Werner as a starter isn't going take any closer to the final form.
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It wasn’t my data
I was surprised
But I also think people over exaggerate our high line impact and that transition
Luton didn’t score because we had a line, they scored because 3 players didn’t do the basics well
Fulham didn’t score because of a high line. They scored because we were lazy in 2 instances and the first goal was Romero not being in line… that could be the case but line but we were midway in our half
Wolves scored a counter and a set piece
Palace…. Free kick so a set piece
Brighton a penalty from a player fancying about
Everton two set pieces
Brentford a back pass and the goal that was a high line issue imo although very defendable with a better pass from us
City, a set piece foul
United scored two goals from passing around us
 
Raziel said:
So two separate conversations

- First on the conceding, agree but having a midfielder that can provide a greater level of cover (see Rodri at City where they are similarly often open) makes a difference

- Re Werner, I get you don't rate him, but I disagree with your assessment about fit to the system
-----> Ange's system isn't about top quality forwards (Ange has never had WC forwards that I'm aware of, Jota at Celtic managed 11 league goals in his best season, Kyogo is 29 and had one standout season with Ange which indicates system vs. player).
-----> His model (for us, in game and in practice as well), is fast wingers that go wide, to the line and provide one of two crosses, either the cutback to Striker who does a tap in (lot of Richi's goals this season), or a strait cross to other side of box where the opposite winger and/or FB coming in (Johnson has actually scored from exactly this scenario last game and in the Luton game Werner forced the OG as a result of his positioning again in the same scenario.

Again not arguing is he's upgradeable but he does fit the system and is good depth (and that's where this squad is getting better, having a bench matters)
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He's never had the opportunity to have top quality forwards previously. I don't think you're going to argue that he would turn them down if given the chance to have them. Now think his as good as it is like any system can and will be improved with a better quality of component ie the players.

Everything you said re the way the system is unaffected by having better forwards, they will just perform the tasks more effectively. Hi estly what we do isn't that disimailt to Pep at Barca or even early days City. For it to actually be successful it requires top players. No ifs, no buts.

Werner is ok but he's not the level required, I don't know how we can watch the game against West Ham and think otherwise. He had numerous opportunities other than the goal to affect the game and failed to do so every time. My belief is a better player than Werner makes more of those possesions, than he did. We score a couple more goals, we win more games.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
It wasn’t my data
I was surprised
But I also think people over exaggerate our high line impact and that transition
Luton didn’t score because we had a line, they scored because 3 players didn’t do the basics well
Fulham didn’t score because of a high line. They scored because we were lazy in 2 instances and the first goal was Romero not being in line… that could be the case but line but we were midway in our half
Wolves scored a counter and a set piece
Palace…. Free kick so a set piece
Brighton a penalty from a player fancying about
Everton two set pieces
Brentford a back pass and the goal that was a high line issue imo although very defendable with a better pass from us
City, a set piece foul
United scored two goals from passing around us
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Players recovering into space and in transition are players more likely to make mistakes. It's the obvious difference between our defensive actions and those of the teams we often find ourselves against. There's a obvious reason why a settled and ready defense is able to cope with the quality of our attacking play versus our defense with its superior players not so able to deal with the situations it has been put under and by defense I'm talking about the entire team. The way we play engenders these situations, I have no problem with that, but the reality is the onus is on the attack to function to stop the defense having to worry about counters or just periods of play when we aren't controlling the play or tempo.
 
Bishop said:
Players recovering into space and in transition are players more likely to make mistakes. It's the obvious difference between our defensive actions and those of the teams we often find ourselves against. There's a obvious reason why a settled and ready defense is able to cope with the quality of our attacking play versus our defense with its superior players not so able to deal with the situations it has been put under and by defense I'm talking about the entire team. The way we play engenders these situations, I have no problem with that, but the reality is the onus is on the attack to function to stop the defense having to worry about counters or just periods of play when we aren't controlling the play or tempo.
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The difference is that teams that attack us get unlocked
teams that sit deep just try to nick a goal
Add in defensive incompetence and that’s what we concede
To come back in games and regain 20 points is impressive
Losing 20 points from winning positions is horrendous.
Teams don’t put us under pressure. They can’t as they rarely have the ball. What they do is take the chance they have
How do city and Arsenal manage it? They don’t fudge up simply when countered and deal with set pieces.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
This not quite good enough forward line will end up this season outscoring 95% of our previous seasons .. it’s that bad
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Because we play a very attacking brand of football. The forwards at the very least are upgradable, would you concede? And I never said they were bad, but we need better.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Because we play a very attacking brand of football. The forwards at the very least are upgradable, would you concede? And I never said they were bad, but we need better.
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Every player is upgrade able. City looked better without Haaland last night
I’ve seen teams win trophies with worse forwrads
Out conversion of chances is good
The issue is we defend too many chances weakly
That’s all that needs resolving and that’s still nothing to do with our attacking
Tell me what city and arsenal do different to us?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Every player is upgrade able. City looked better without Haaland last night
I’ve seen teams win trophies with worse forwrads
Out conversion of chances is good
The issue is we defend too many chances weakly
That’s all that needs resolving and that’s still nothing to do with our attacking
Tell me what city and arsenal do different to us?
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Rodri, Rice, Palhinha
 
Bishop said:
How 0ftwn has our attack ever been good enough? That's a weak counter argument.
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But our attack will score the 2nd highest amount of goals we have ever scored in the prem
That’s without a proper cf and missing it’s chief creator for a third of the season
We have had great attacks but this one statically is better than most
But I don’t remember in recent years a team so bad at conceding dog brick goals. Lazy goals
And it’s not like we don’t have good defenders
I’m Fine with upgrading wherever we can but the way we defend has to be the priority. If it’s the only thing we do
 
Bedfordspurs said:
But our attack will score the 2nd highest amount of goals we have ever scored in the prem
That’s without a proper cf and missing it’s chief creator for a third of the season
We have had great attacks but this one statically is better than most
But I don’t remember in recent years a team so bad at conceding dog brick goals. Lazy goals
And it’s not like we don’t have good defenders
I’m Fine with upgrading wherever we can but the way we defend has to be the priority. If it’s the only thing we do
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We've only ever scored more than 80 goals once, saying we are on course to score more than previous sides really doesn't mean a great deal in the grand scheme especially when we are a very attacking aggressive team. We've never had attacks good enough to win leagues, even with Kane and Son we always lacked the RWF to finish off the trident.

Just imagine the numbers we could score with a better quality of attacker in this system with this coach, that's all I'm saying and I don't understand why so many want to settle for less. Do we not want to win and excel? Is the point not to be the best?
 
And don't get me wrong I'm all for adding a high quality DM, it's absolutely neccesary but I don't believe that changes everything defensively. One player isn't going to make that significant a difference, we are still going to be open to counters, we will still occasionally play loose passes when the FBs are up the field. A great DM won't change this, but scoring early and scoring efficiently (we don't currently) will make just as much of a difference if not more for this side. Werner isn't likely to suddenly become a player who who scores at that critical moment when the pressure is on, to be a player who scores 2 or 3 from 2 or 3 chances. If we want to to win the league that's what we need imo along with the DM.
 
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