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Timo Werner

K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Yeah the one horse in the race, German football is very average and fans here think if they had more say in clubs here it would be great, I don't see how replacing billionaires with naive nutters will improve the product, that's what it is a product not a sports club.
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It's not fan involvement that is the issue. It's that you can't have a Roman or the various Sheikhs throwing loads of external earned money into the clubs. Which this means the best run club rises to the top ie. Bayern. If the PL had the same model limiting outside investment it's very likely that it would also be dominated by one team. It already is even with massive outside investors.

But re the quality. Do you actually watch Bundesliga? I haven't honestly this year but to call it average is very disingerous and comes across as someone who doesn't actually watch it. The quality of the competition is much more even and it's actually more exciting because the playing field is more levelled. Then in terms of sheer quality it is rather good, maybe not to the very best of the PL levels but it's hardly the championship in terms of objective quality.
 
Bishop said:
Not sure about actually scoring more than they miss but there are some players who hit higher than their xG. We've had two in recent years; Son and Kane. On average given the chances they had they would have been expected to score fewer than they did if they were average finishers, quite significantly in both case.
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I don't think I've ever seen an actual on- vs off-target stat, but goals/xG looks like a reasonable thing to measure. We sure have been spoilt with Kane and Son there, but then, throughout my time as a supporter, I'd say we've regularly banked on a few standout players carrying the rest of the team, and consistently failed to build the rest of the squad up to a level whereby we could really capitalise on their abilities. Even in periods where we've got very close, there's always seemed to be bits of the jigsaw missing. That's more or less how I'd characterise my lifetime's experience as a fan, tbh. Greatness always seemingly just out of reach. Ah, well ...
 
Bishop said:
Not sure about actually scoring more than they miss but there are some players who hit higher than their xG. We've had two in recent years; Son and Kane. On average given the chances they had they would have been expected to score fewer than they did if they were average finishers, quite significantly in both case.
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Son tends to score a lot of low probability chances - a lot of goals from mid to long range, which will be the reason for his stats being what they are. I don't think he's particularly great at converting close range typical striker chances
 
Bishop said:
It's not fan involvement that is the issue. It's that you can't have a Roman or the various Sheikhs throwing loads of external earned money into the clubs. Which this means the best run club rises to the top ie. Bayern. If the PL had the same model limiting outside investment it's very likely that it would also be dominated by one team. It already is even with massive outside investors.

But re the quality. Do you actually watch Bundesliga? I haven't honestly this year but to call it average is very disingerous and comes across as someone who doesn't actually watch it. The quality of the competition is much more even and it's actually more exciting because the playing field is more levelled. Then in terms of sheer quality it is rather good, maybe not to the very best of the PL levels but it's hardly the championship in terms of objective quality.
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Disagree with your conclusion in the first part, Bayerns turnover dwarfs any of the other clubs in the league to a degree that isn't seen in the PL so the chances of one club dominating if solely reliant on club generated spend is not as likely, wheras in the PL United out in front but a group of 3 or 4 behind that are strong enough that a good, well performing structure would see the league be competitive
 
billyiddo said:
Disagree with your conclusion in the first part, Bayerns turnover dwarfs any of the other clubs in the league to a degree that isn't seen in the PL so the chances of one club dominating if solely reliant on club generated spend is not as likely, wheras in the PL United out in front but a group of 3 or 4 behind that are strong enough that a good, well performing structure would see the league be competitive
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Bayerns turnover dwarfs the rest because of thier success on the pitch from the 70s onwards and their ability to commodities that success. With the advent of the PL and it's domination by United the same exact thing was happening if not for the introduction of Roman Abramovitch's billions to Chelsea, take Chelsea and latterly Emirates Marketing Project out of the equation and United's revenues would have continued to grow and dwarf the rest of the PL as they won the league season after season.

That external rich owner financing is what can't happen in Germany due to the 50+1 rule. The Bundesliga has naturally coalesced around the most successful and marketable institution.
 
Bishop said:
Bayerns turnover dwarfs the rest because of thier success on the pitch from the 70s onwards and their ability to commodities that success. With the advent of the PL and it's domination by United the same exact thing was happening if not for the introduction of Roman Abramovitch's billions to Chelsea, take Chelsea and latterly Emirates Marketing Project out of the equation and United's revenues would have continued to grow and dwarf the rest of the PL as they won the league season after season.

That external rich owner financing is what can't happen in Germany due to the 50+1 rule. The Bundesliga has naturally coalesced around the most successful and marketable institution.
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The PL was awarded 4 CL places before the likes of Abramovich & City came along and was already the no.1 league for viewing figures and turnover, meaning ourselves Arsenal & Liverpool would have grown bigger off the field more quickly and kept the league as competitive as it has been with City & Chelsea being are what they are.
 
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billyiddo said:
The PL was awarded 4 CL places before the likes of Abramovich & City came along and was already the no.1 league for viewing figures and turnover, meaning ourselves Arsenal & Liverpool would have grown bigger off the field more quickly and kept the league as competitive as it has been with City & Chelsea being are what they are.
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Ourselves? Nah, we were mid-table fodder until Jol's team in the mid-00s. Without the Abramovich money, I suspect the PL would have ended up much more like Spain, dominated by two huge clubs (ManU and Arsenal) with a regular 3rd wheel (Liverpool) getting CL football every year, and then a fluid band of second tier clubs (Chelsea, us, Villa, Everton, etc.).

I think the club to really suffer from the Abramovich takeover was Arsenal, but the expansion in CL places kept them and Liverpool able to compete with ManU and Chelsea, until Levy dragged us into the party.

The Glaziers then absolutely destroyed ManU. With their financial dominance after 15+ years of success, them dropping out of regular title contention is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as Emirates Marketing Project's rise on the back of entirely above board financial backing. Written with a smirk, of course.

You have to admire what Liverpool, Arsenal and of course Spurs have done over the last decade. With only slightly better luck, we could conceivably have had PL and CL trophies glistening away in the cheese room.
 
FatBloke said:
Ourselves? Nah, we were mid-table fodder until Jol's team in the mid-00s. Without the Abramovich money, I suspect the PL would have ended up much more like Spain, dominated by two huge clubs (ManU and Arsenal) with a regular 3rd wheel (Liverpool) getting CL football every year, and then a fluid band of second tier clubs (Chelsea, us, Villa, Everton, etc.).

I think the club to really suffer from the Abramovich takeover was Arsenal, but the expansion in CL places kept them and Liverpool able to compete with ManU and Chelsea, until Levy dragged us into the party.

The Glaziers then absolutely destroyed ManU. With their financial dominance after 15+ years of success, them dropping out of regular title contention is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as Emirates Marketing Project's rise on the back of entirely above board financial backing. Written with a smirk, of course.

You have to admire what Liverpool, Arsenal and of course Spurs have done over the last decade. With only slightly better luck, we could conceivably have had PL and CL trophies glistening away in the cheese room.
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Between Jol Redknapp & AVB we had 4 or 5 seasons missing out on the CL by a solitary place, kept out by Chelsea and/or City, without them we develop quicker off the field.

They didn't create competition they pushed in front to get there first.
 
billyiddo said:
Between Jol Redknapp & AVB we had 4 or 5 seasons missing out on the CL by a solitary place, kept out by Chelsea and/or City, without them we develop quicker off the field.

They didn't create competition they pushed in front to get there first.
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They kept the top of the league competitive. Without them United have another 3 or 4 PLs, further cementing their dominant position.
 
Bishop said:
They kept the top of the league competitive. Without them United have another 3 or 4 PLs, further cementing their dominant position.
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Yes but it wouldn't be anything like Germany still, the chasing pack in the PL is much closer in terms of turnover than in Germany, for reasons established long before Abramovich or the Sheiks got involved.
 
Bishop said:
It's not fan involvement that is the issue. It's that you can't have a Roman or the various Sheikhs throwing loads of external earned money into the clubs. Which this means the best run club rises to the top ie. Bayern. If the PL had the same model limiting outside investment it's very likely that it would also be dominated by one team. It already is even with massive outside investors.

But re the quality. Do you actually watch Bundesliga? I haven't honestly this year but to call it average is very disingerous and comes across as someone who doesn't actually watch it. The quality of the competition is much more even and it's actually more exciting because the playing field is more levelled. Then in terms of sheer quality it is rather good, maybe not to the very best of the PL levels but it's hardly the championship in terms of objective quality.
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The Bundesliga is one of the better leagues in the world. The ease with which Kane is scoring would suggest it's not up to the PL standard in terms of defending, at least.
 
scaramanga said:
The Bundesliga is one of the better leagues in the world. The ease with which Kane is scoring would suggest it's not up to the PL standard in terms of defending, at least.
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I agree it's not quite PL but that's not the same as being poor and Kane scoring a brick load isn't surprising. He scored tons with us and we were often brick (especially last season), now he's with a quality team that create shedloads for him it's not really surprising.
 
billyiddo said:
Yes but it wouldn't be anything like Germany still, the chasing pack in the PL is much closer in terms of turnover than in Germany, for reasons established long before Abramovich or the Sheiks got involved.
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My point was that the PL was on its way towards being dominated by two teams (ManU and Arse) like Spain, before Chelsea shook things up.
 
FatBloke said:
My point was that the PL was on its way towards being dominated by two teams (ManU and Arse) like Spain, before Chelsea shook things up.
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With regular CL qualification a 3rd and 4th club would have grown to a point that they would have been competing with them also - Liverpool ourselves & Arsenal all have similar levels of turmover when in CL, so Arsenal & United dominating by themselves would not have lasted long.
 
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