Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm in the same boat as you mate. I think a lot of the abuse he gets on here is just plain unfair but really;

"I didn't watch the game [5-0 home defeat to Liverpool] back. I was too scared too. You don't learn anything from games like that."

This doesn't worry you???? It certainly does worry me if I'm honest. Like I said, I've defended him a fair bit on here, but he's not helped himself before, during or after the liverpool game.

I too have defended Sherwood a fair bit on here, but agree he's making it more difficult with statements like that. No doubt his defence will be he didn't want to demoralise his team by referring back to it, but the notion that we could learn nothing from that 0-5 trouncing adds up to a pretty damning indictment of his management nous.

There was of course a huge amount to learn from it. How to approach a game with the same level of intensity and positivity, how to make sure you are prepared for the game from the off and not half-asleep, how to at least match their pressing game, how to avoid schoolboy errors by not holding onto the ball too long, how to retain possession by opting for simple, short, quick, triangular passing movement, how to avoid being exposed at the back by not employing a high line, etc etc.

The team betrayed so many similar lapses in concentration, method and approach that it was not the least surprising the result was much the same.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I too have defended Sherwood a fair bit on here, but agree he's making it more difficult with statements like that. No doubt his defence will be he didn't want to demoralise his team by referring back to it, but the notion that we could learn nothing from that 0-5 trouncing adds up to a pretty damning indictment of his management nous.

There was of course a huge amount to learn from it. How to approach a game with the same level of intensity and positivity, how to make sure you are prepared for the game from the off and not half-asleep, how to at least match their pressing game, how to avoid schoolboy errors by not holding onto the ball too long, how to retain possession by opting for simple, short, quick, triangular passing movement, how to avoid being exposed at the back by not employing a high line, etc etc.

The team betrayed so many similar lapses in concentration, method and approach that it was not the least surprising the result was much the same.

He doesn't even have to refer back to it with the players, just watch the f*cking thing in his back room so he at least has some kind of idea how Rodgers will try and play against us.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think the quote about the previous Liverpool match is that bad. I'm not sure how much can be gained from watching a fully focussed team waltz through the ten men in white, with a makeshift defense. He can get a better feeling of how Liverpool would play when they pull apart a defense that is actually in the game, unlike ours on that day. Sherwood and his staff would learn nothing beyond what they already knew, and too much focus on a game like that takes the preparation away from how we would impose ourselves.

There's plenty of things to be disappointed about, but I think that quote is being seized upon to generate some hysteria where they doesn't need to be.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He doesn't even have to refer back to it with the players, just watch the f*cking thing in his back room so he at least has some kind of idea how Rodgers will try and play against us.

Absolutely, but he obviously knows if he'd watched it again he'd not be able to stop himself from referring back to it with his players, he's that type of bloke.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think the quote about the previous Liverpool match is that bad. I'm not sure how much can be gained from watching a fully focussed team waltz through the ten men in white, with a makeshift defense. He can get a better feeling of how Liverpool would play when they pull apart a defense that is actually in the game, unlike ours on that day. Sherwood and his staff would learn nothing beyond what they already knew, and too much focus on a game like that takes the preparation away from how we would impose ourselves.

There's plenty of things to be disappointed about, but I think that quote is being seized upon to generate some hysteria where they doesn't need to be.

Honestly though, as a starting point, you don't see it as important for our manager to review the last time the team we come up against next actually played against us? I get your point and agree, he should also look at Liverpool verses a decent defense. But as a starting point for any team we are about to come up against, the last time we played them has to be the manager's first port of call. No???

How does he know you don't learn anything from it if he never watched it? Surely it's worth spending 90 minutes watching it back whilst the wife is out with the dogs, and if he doesn't learn anything from it then no problem, but to dismiss it as 'you never learn anything from those games' you always learn something, from every single game, as a player or as a manager, if you look hard enough for something to learn.

 

[Boonie]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rumours are that he punched Dawson but he can't defend himself....

The ref saw what happened and sent off Kieran Gibbs!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Honestly though, as a starting point, you don't see it as important for our manager to review the last time the team we come up against next actually played against us? I get your point and agree, he should also look at Liverpool verses a decent defense. But as a starting point for any team we are about to come up against, the last time we played them has to be the manager's first port of call. No???

How does he know you don't learn anything from it if he never watched it? Surely it's worth spending 90 minutes watching it back whilst the wife is out with the dogs, and if he doesn't learn anything from it then no problem, but to dismiss it as 'you never learn anything from those games' you always learn something, from every single game, as a player or as a manager, if you look hard enough for something to learn.

I don't know, I just think, for a start it was AVB's team playing some form of AVB's system very badly. So he already knows he isn't going to have our players doing certain things. He also knows we went down to ten men. He also knows that the defense we put out that day was rubbish. So he already knows a lot of what he sees in that game he would be doing differently anyway, because as a starting point the way he sets the team up would be different to how AVB would. He will then look at games where Liverpool played well against more structured teams and look at how they played when at Hull etc when they were beaten.

If he really didn't watch that game, I don't mind it too much. I'm annoyed beyond belief with how this season has gone and how we have a manager who admits he's on a 'learning curve' and that's why he's sitting in the stands, while Liverpool and Everton breeze past us playing structured football with intelligence, style and class. But I'm not convinced anything that could be learnt from the 5-0 would have had a big enough impact on us yesterday.

 

[ArnieArdiles]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The point I am trying to make is that for those that lauded AVB, TS is not doing a worse job.

While I agree with the comment above that they are both novices, one had 100m spent assembling the squad he (at least partly ) wanted, bringing in 11 different players, had two pre seasons and a host of meaningless EL games to develop a team, a way of playing with a squad full of fit players to chose from. The other came in mid-season, the team on the back of hammerings, a defense error prone and, to cap it off, a humongous injury list, which prevented any form of cohesion and consistency being able to be established with every game from the outset of significant importance.

Two vastly different starting points IMO.

I don't know whether TS is the real deal, but I do feel it is harsh to judge him on the raw deal he inherited. That is all.

There were no raw deal . FFS ..get a grip man!

The new manager came in with the team in sixth position , just 8 points off the lead. We we're not 2 points from 8 games or anywhere near to the drop zone as often is the case, when a new manager is appointed .

Jeeesus !!!](*,)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There were no raw deal . FFS ..get a grip man!

The new manager came in with the team in sixth position , just 8 points off the lead. We we're not 2 points from 8 games or anywhere near to the drop zone as often is the case, when a new manager is appointed .

Jeeesus !!!](*,)

Yep, this point really does need to be emphasized. TS was not inheriting a club on its knees ala Harry.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't know, I just think, for a start it was AVB's team playing some form of AVB's system very badly. So he already knows he isn't going to have our players doing certain things. He also knows we went down to ten men. He also knows that the defense we put out that day was rubbish. So he already knows a lot of what he sees in that game he would be doing differently anyway, because as a starting point the way he sets the team up would be different to how AVB would. He will then look at games where Liverpool played well against more structured teams and look at how they played when at Hull etc when they were beaten.

If he really didn't watch that game, I don't mind it too much. I'm annoyed beyond belief with how this season has gone and how we have a manager who admits he's on a 'learning curve' and that's why he's sitting in the stands, while Liverpool and Everton breeze past us playing structured football with intelligence, style and class. But I'm not convinced anything that could be learnt from the 5-0 would have had a big enough impact on us yesterday.

He may not have been able to learn anything from us (debatable) but he could learn plenty about Liverpool. From simple stuff like do their centre backs split and look for the ball when keeper has it, what does Suarez do when Gerard gets on the ball, why did Flanaghan have such a good game, to more complex stuff like analysing their more used patterns of play etc

If he was really smart he could then watch them verses a good side or a side with a different style to our own and see what the common themes are, does Suarez run in behind when Gerard picks the ball up or is that something Rodgers employed because of our high line.

It may not have had an impact, but surely if he's on a learning curve, he should be doing everything he can to actually learn.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He may not have been able to learn anything from us (debatable) but he could learn plenty about Liverpool. From simple stuff like do their centre backs split and look for the ball when keeper has it, what does Suarez do when Gerard gets on the ball, why did Flanaghan have such a good game, to more complex stuff like analysing their more used patterns of play etc

If he was really smart he could then watch them verses a good side or a side with a different style to our own and see what the common themes are, does Suarez run in behind when Gerard picks the ball up or is that something Rodgers employed because of our high line.

It may not have had an impact, but surely if he's on a learning curve, he should be doing everything he can to actually learn.

I just think he'd get whether their center backs split from a different game against a team that was more 'on it' on the day rather than AVB's final game where everything had gone wrong.

He could have watched it, but I think to say that only positives come from basing your preparation on that game could be wrong. By focusing too much on a game where everything went wrong, you focus less on imposing yourself and doing things in your own way.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just think he'd get whether their center backs split from a different game against a team that was more 'on it' on the day rather than AVB's final game where everything had gone wrong.

He could have watched it, but I think to say that only positives come from basing your preparation on that game could be wrong. By focusing too much on a game where everything went wrong, you focus less on imposing yourself and doing things in your own way.

Centre back thing was just an example. He probably could get that from another game. But there are certainly things that he could learn about pool verses us by watching them play us previous.

I'm not saying he should base his preparations on that game at all though. I'm saying that, as our manager, it has to be his starting point. After watching all he needs to watch of the opposition (including them actually playing us) he then has to make the decision on whether there is anything that really needs addressing (eg Coutinhos ability to ghost in and out of space in front of the back 4 which he didn't address at all) or whether we should set up to impose ourselves or a bit of both.

I get the impression he's gone 'sure we are a great team, we just go and do our stuff and it's easy, well beat them.' Which could not be further from the truth

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not entirely convinced playing inverted wingers means that Soldado would never get chances. Creativity can still come from those wingers, plus crosses from full backs, plus Dembele etc breaking forward. I think it needed some working but had we played orthodox wingers on each side, we are basically losing goal threat from them. Orthodox wingers work best in a 4-4-2 when they have 2 men to aim for in the box, inverted wingers work best in a lone striker system when they are expected to score. AVB basically said to Soldado 'you are my man' so in terms of confidence, he was doing what he could. Soldado needed to adapt to the country and the system though and that would take time. We had some good games with it, we had others where chances were tough to come by. About what you'd expect with basically a hell of a lot of new players trying to settle into the club and the country.

Paulinho will have basically played a full season half way through ours, so it makes sense he's getting rest now. He was probably most well equipped fitness wise and sharpness wise to come in and play well, if not from a language or culture perspective yet. So he did reasonably well considering. Wasn't great, but showed glimpses. Again, about what you'd expect with so many different factors requiring his needing to settle.

Eriksen - played well against Norwich, played well against Cardiff. But AVB was operating a policy where we (apart from left back) had 2 good players for each position. He gave Defoe his chance in the West Ham game because Soldado wasn't firing, and he had played Eriksen from the start of the season. But following that West Ham game, Hotlby deserved a run. Eriksen would get his chance again when Holtby falters. I see no reason to think AVB likes 'big beasts'. He likes players high on teamwork.

Lamela - was always going to take a year at least. I don't think we will know the story of that City game for years, whose to say AVB wasn't being pressured from above to play the big money (Lamela) or big wages (Ade) signings or risk disagreements? Or maybe it was simply that Lamela had been at the club while others had been away for international week. Either way, if we accept that he will take a year to settle, why does a goal against some Moldovan team means he deserves to start ahead of an in-form Townsend against Saudi Sportswashing Machine? There's no telling how he would perform.

Capoue would have got games under AVB if not injured. More than under TS for sure.

Chadli had a fair few games under AVB and TS has only recently started playing him. Again, foreign guy, probably always going to be a squad player when everyone is fit, wasn't expecting fireworks.

I don't think AVB has particularly done anything wrong in terms of selection that stopped the players settling. We will never know from behind the scenes if he did anything from a man management perspective that stopped them, but considering it wasn't a real 'lost the dressing room' kind of sacking and more of a 'we can't work together anymore' parting of the ways with the Chairman, I kind of doubt that he did.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this BOL. I feel he lacked poor man management skills ( I have to say this is rather bourne out by my contact at the club). In addition, you can add in Ade, BAE and the ruination of Verts' Spurs career IMO by his insistence on playing him left back, to his player failures. But this the TS thread so lets just leave it there.

 

[ArnieArdiles]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yep, this point really does need to be emphasized. TS was not inheriting a club on its knees ala Harry.

I were sad to see AVB go and Hoddle would've been my choice to succeed him for the remainder of the season but I were, all for letting Sherwood have a fair crack at it too.

I were somewhat taken aback at the animosity directed towards, Sherwood when his appointment were made. But I do feel, the time has now come where I have to applaud the likes of Gutter Boy and also the others, who were more ITK about Sherwood's true character and had warned of the damage that he could do to us whilst he's our manager.

With Sherwood its all about self preservation and it stinks!

 

[mudshark]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'd say things went beyond whether or not Sherwood does or doesn't watch a video of the previous game some time ago. We know our defence has been brittle and error-prone for months. I seem to recall most people in the Friendly Scouser thread predicting a hammering regardless of the lineup. I predicted 3-0 or better myself. No point acting as though it came as some great surprise, and certainly not one that was likely to have been mitigated by a quick shufti at a DVD.

On the business of Sherwood and his tantrums, to be fair, I thought he seemed very calm in the BBC post-match — positively zen-like, for him. I have to say, I didn't buy his "Learned a lot about my players having stayed watching from the stands" line, though.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm in the same boat as you mate. I think a lot of the abuse he gets on here is just plain unfair but really;

"I didn't watch the game [5-0 home defeat to Liverpool] back. I was too scared too. You don't learn anything from games like that."

This doesn't worry you???? It certainly does worry me if I'm honest. Like I said, I've defended him a fair bit on here, but he's not helped himself before, during or after the liverpool game.

Yes it does. Unlike the way I have been characterized on here, I do not think everything TS has said and done has covered himself in glory. He has made many mistakes and when I feel he has done, I have been the first to say so. For example, I think he was entirely wrong not to plug obvious gaps in January. I don't like my managers shouting their mouth off in public nor publicly criticizing their own players - much better to do it behind closed doors. I didn't like him staying in the stands nor his pre and post match comments.

Some of his team selections have been poor IMO. if Sandro was fully fit yesterday, I would certainly have started him. similarly not to play, Eriksen when fully fit would be stupid, but I am not sure he has done thus willingly. Plus playing Lennon and Paulinho have given us either one or two passengers in each game. Plenty for the anti- phalanx to get their teeth into.

But...... Have we yet seen TS 's preferred team play once? Never mind that we certainly haven't seen the same team on consecutive occasions. He is crisis managing. Once with 11 first teamers unavailable to him and a few times with no central defenders. Plus we have **** full backs and an error strewn defense. Two of his big hammerings were when we had a man sent off ( wrongly) and a penalty given against us - followed by a further concession of seven goals when down to 10 men. Nearly 50% of our goals against come from individual mistakes. Altogether , the most damnable bad luck going.

So yes I do feel sorry for TS. I think he has inherited a real **** stick and don't think he has been given a fair chance by some on here. Notwithstanding that, I think his goose is now cooked and that it is inevitable due to the divisiveness he causes on here and elsewhere that he will be gone in the summer, if not before. I would like to see him play the following wonky in every game from now on to see if we can get some consistency and cohesion:

Lloris

Walker
Kaboul/Dawson
Fryers/Chiriches
Rose (due to lack of alternatives)

Townsend/Lamela
Sandro
Dembele
Eriksen

Ade
Solly

The back four are **** however you slice and dice it.

Lets try and end the season on a high. COYS.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This notion about Soldado needing time and a season to adjust. Chelski signed Eto for only one season...so they must have figured he wouldn't need much time to settle. Eto had never played in the PL before. Just saying...

But he was in Mourinho's system for a season at Inter.. Did they win the champions league that year!?

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The decision to continue to play Bentaleb and not Sandro is a serious worry for me and basically is Sherwood sucking the **** of levy because he knows how much he prefers the kaching sounds of profits on players. I cannot wait for Sherwood to be gone and a manager that plays what I would say is one of our best midfielders of the Levy reign. Its plainly ludicrius that Sandro isn't starting IMO.

THE PLAN

Wonders if the plan is to finish out of the Europa places on purpose.

 

[shaney]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Im so depressed with Spurs at the moment. The fire has gone out of my belly. Even when Siggy scored the last minute winner last week, I just watched the tv screen barely feeling anything, whereas before I would be sliding across the carpet on my knees yelping in celebration.

I dont want to feel like this anymore. I want my Spurs back. And that starts with the removal of the arrogant idiot Sherwood. He has to go by the weekend. I fear for us if this black hole of negativity drags on till the end of the season. We are a lead balloon at the moment and it needs to change quickly.

 

[Darryl]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The decision to continue to play Bentaleb and not Sandro is a serious worry for me and basically is Sherwood sucking the **** of levy because he knows how much he prefers the kaching sounds of profits on players. I cannot wait for Sherwood to be gone and a manager that plays what I would say is one of our best midfielders of the Levy reign. Its plainly ludicrius that Sandro isn't starting IMO.

THE PLAN

Wonders if the plan is to finish out of the Europa places on purpose.

I don't think Sherwood would make Levy happy if he missed out on Europa League and the several million pounds that come with it.