Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I was always a believer that a 'systems' approach (klopp pep etc) was the way to go. Maybe that belief is held because they simply won?.
From our POV it's a harder gig because the league is so competitive, and if the system requires many many top players, other clubs will buy them before you do. (for many of the reasons we've done to death). The other issue is, with a 'systems' approach you 'reveal' yourself. Your cards are on show, and every week you think you have the strongest hand. Once again, the level of the league has got better, and the level of manager has got better. They're smart, tactically astute and your easily studied.

And Frank himself falls into that category of smart manager. His approach is that of being flexible and adaptable. Simply the same approach he had at Brentford but with more resources and better players.
It's an interesting approach as by the nature of it, WE ourselves don't become predictable.

I'm feeling he might be a good match for the stage of the cycle we're at. The club's plan of going back to younger players and now adding players with experience (still relatively young though) feels ideal for him. Theres so much potential there.

I do worry about the prep time...judging by his interviews (the Carrick one is good btw) he's super detailed. Perhaps some stuff can become engrained so only needs occasional re-enforcement every now and then. And even though we have different game plans, perhaps we use the same one for teams that are similar, so not necessarily unique every week.

I'm right behind Thomas.... he's laser focussed, a student of the game, speaks well and, most importantly, a decent human being,

I think a system is worthwhile in the sense that strategically, you are making a choice. We are explicitly NOT going to try and do certain things, and sign certain types of players, because we are specifically going to double down on exactly *THIS* type of player use them this certain way.

And I think that works and makes sense if you are uniquely following that plan, and other clubs are trying to do something else.

I think maybe the issue for systems is that Pep has had such an influence on the game now, that so many teams try and play in a similar way, and so zigging where everyone else is zagging is important again. In that sense I can see why Frank could be great, because we can set up to exploit the way all of these teams have set themselves up.

I think at some point it could swing back the other way. Eg the league gets full of Frank’s, Harry Redknapps, Howe’s. Where the coaches are relying on the individual quality of the players more. And if the pendulum goes that far, a system manager who drills a side to do something, or a group of things, so well that it’s almost unstoppable even though you know it’s coming, could he in vogue again.

This discussion is giving me more confidence that we’ve got the right man for where we’re at. My judgement will be can he gets us challenging for the biggest prizes though, not just back in the top 6. Though I’d accept that this season.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Klopp was always direct imo. I agree most top managers will evolve (or be left behind - see Mourinho). But was talking about Klopp and Pep as the exception in that they didn't focus on making teams defensively solid first, whereas that was mostly the norm before them. Just my impression.

I think "idealism"/purist/dogmatic is a valid and good approach too, if done at the right time at the right club. Plenty of managers that have been more dogmatic and succeeded, just like more flexibility managers have.

I think Pulis is an interesting example with that. Very much dogmatic, very set way of playing and succeeded at a good level (for Stoke) for quite a while. And more than one similarity with him and what's now in fashion. High pressing mixed with periods of defending deep, set pieces, long throws, very direct. If he had the best players available for that style how far could they have gone? I think very far.

Before that (or at the same time?) Mourinho was winning it all with defense first, throwback to the Italian sides winning turgid 1-0s back in the day. That became the thing to do.

Similarly (but different style) Bielsa. High press and the man marking. Critiqued by many, but now all of a sudden more man marking high pressing is in fashion.

Then Pep-ball or Kloppball was in fashion. And "everyone" had to do something like that, with few exceptions. I think it's an illusion to think the solution has now been found and everyone should just do this or that. It's as much about how to exploit what is in fashion as to copy it imo. And both flexibility and dogmatism can be strengths.

Now probably isn't the time for a Pulis type. So many teams focusing on physicality and set pieces he would struggle to get that edge. Perhaps the next successful dogmatist will do something different though. Perhaps a possession heavy tiki taka like approach will be the way to gain an edge? Who knows, there are many answers as long as the execution and timing is right.

The Jose point is interesting. He was definitely defence first and I think that’s why I raised the question initially about Frank. Because I remember when Jose first joined Chelsea, there was a lot of ‘just because we defend well it doesn’t mean we’re defensive’ with the idea that they would eventually look like a more offensively fluid team. But then as the years go on you see that Jose just was who he was, and the people calling out the focus on the defence were probably correct in the end.

It seems we’re saying a different thing with Frank - in that in his ideal state he will have built on the offensive fluidity in a way Jose never really did with his teams.

 

[braineclipse]

Just a question (to everyone) on what you said above about having access to the first choice defenders.

If we had to run with one of Romero or VDV and one of Porro or Spence and Kinsky in sticks for Vic, what happens?

Personally, I feel that in Danso, Udogie and Kinsky we are in so much better shape than this time one year ago. I think Frank would do what it takes to make it lean. Cutting any deeper than these 8 players with current available players worries me a little though.

Definitely in much better shape than at this stage last season. Spence massively stepping up, Kinsky in, Danso in, Dragusin will return.

For me we would miss any starter of course, but I would be mostly concerned about missing Romero. I think he gives us so much on the ball that others can't, especially of the CB options. With our shortcomings with ball progression in deep midfield some of the problems we're seeing now would imo worsen quite a bit.

But then too depends on what others can do. Simons settling in, Kolo Muani, Solanke returning. I think there are some good solutions for Frank, but how quickly can those be implemented?

 

[braineclipse]

The cyclical point is interesting. In that sense Frank could be a really smart appointment as the club is zigging when everyone else is zagging.

If most top clubs have some version of possession football, 4-3-3 with inverted wingers, but they’ve gone a route of technically sound, tricky players with less physicality, I think we can maybe get some advantage by being able to be more direct, and more physical, as long as we can still break down the worst teams too. I think Arteta has made a similar calculation.

Doesn't feel to me that we're zigging when others are zagging. A lot of teams going for more physicality and defensive solidity, a real focus on set pieces. Less dogmatisk, more flexibility.

Feels we're very much following the trend, Frank did his part in shaping that trend at Brentford. That's perfectly fine and good of course.

 

[markysimmo]

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