Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I was always a believer that a 'systems' approach (klopp pep etc) was the way to go. Maybe that belief is held because they simply won?.
From our POV it's a harder gig because the league is so competitive, and if the system requires many many top players, other clubs will buy them before you do. (for many of the reasons we've done to death). The other issue is, with a 'systems' approach you 'reveal' yourself. Your cards are on show, and every week you think you have the strongest hand. Once again, the level of the league has got better, and the level of manager has got better. They're smart, tactically astute and your easily studied.

And Frank himself falls into that category of smart manager. His approach is that of being flexible and adaptable. Simply the same approach he had at Brentford but with more resources and better players.
It's an interesting approach as by the nature of it, WE ourselves don't become predictable.

I'm feeling he might be a good match for the stage of the cycle we're at. The club's plan of going back to younger players and now adding players with experience (still relatively young though) feels ideal for him. Theres so much potential there.

I do worry about the prep time...judging by his interviews (the Carrick one is good btw) he's super detailed. Perhaps some stuff can become engrained so only needs occasional re-enforcement every now and then. And even though we have different game plans, perhaps we use the same one for teams that are similar, so not necessarily unique every week.

I'm right behind Thomas.... he's laser focussed, a student of the game, speaks well and, most importantly, a decent human being,

I think a system is worthwhile in the sense that strategically, you are making a choice. We are explicitly NOT going to try and do certain things, and sign certain types of players, because we are specifically going to double down on exactly *THIS* type of player use them this certain way.

And I think that works and makes sense if you are uniquely following that plan, and other clubs are trying to do something else.

I think maybe the issue for systems is that Pep has had such an influence on the game now, that so many teams try and play in a similar way, and so zigging where everyone else is zagging is important again. In that sense I can see why Frank could be great, because we can set up to exploit the way all of these teams have set themselves up.

I think at some point it could swing back the other way. Eg the league gets full of Frank’s, Harry Redknapps, Howe’s. Where the coaches are relying on the individual quality of the players more. And if the pendulum goes that far, a system manager who drills a side to do something, or a group of things, so well that it’s almost unstoppable even though you know it’s coming, could he in vogue again.

This discussion is giving me more confidence that we’ve got the right man for where we’re at. My judgement will be can he gets us challenging for the biggest prizes though, not just back in the top 6. Though I’d accept that this season.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Klopp was always direct imo. I agree most top managers will evolve (or be left behind - see Mourinho). But was talking about Klopp and Pep as the exception in that they didn't focus on making teams defensively solid first, whereas that was mostly the norm before them. Just my impression.

I think "idealism"/purist/dogmatic is a valid and good approach too, if done at the right time at the right club. Plenty of managers that have been more dogmatic and succeeded, just like more flexibility managers have.

I think Pulis is an interesting example with that. Very much dogmatic, very set way of playing and succeeded at a good level (for Stoke) for quite a while. And more than one similarity with him and what's now in fashion. High pressing mixed with periods of defending deep, set pieces, long throws, very direct. If he had the best players available for that style how far could they have gone? I think very far.

Before that (or at the same time?) Mourinho was winning it all with defense first, throwback to the Italian sides winning turgid 1-0s back in the day. That became the thing to do.

Similarly (but different style) Bielsa. High press and the man marking. Critiqued by many, but now all of a sudden more man marking high pressing is in fashion.

Then Pep-ball or Kloppball was in fashion. And "everyone" had to do something like that, with few exceptions. I think it's an illusion to think the solution has now been found and everyone should just do this or that. It's as much about how to exploit what is in fashion as to copy it imo. And both flexibility and dogmatism can be strengths.

Now probably isn't the time for a Pulis type. So many teams focusing on physicality and set pieces he would struggle to get that edge. Perhaps the next successful dogmatist will do something different though. Perhaps a possession heavy tiki taka like approach will be the way to gain an edge? Who knows, there are many answers as long as the execution and timing is right.

The Jose point is interesting. He was definitely defence first and I think that’s why I raised the question initially about Frank. Because I remember when Jose first joined Chelsea, there was a lot of ‘just because we defend well it doesn’t mean we’re defensive’ with the idea that they would eventually look like a more offensively fluid team. But then as the years go on you see that Jose just was who he was, and the people calling out the focus on the defence were probably correct in the end.

It seems we’re saying a different thing with Frank - in that in his ideal state he will have built on the offensive fluidity in a way Jose never really did with his teams.

 

[braineclipse]

Just a question (to everyone) on what you said above about having access to the first choice defenders.

If we had to run with one of Romero or VDV and one of Porro or Spence and Kinsky in sticks for Vic, what happens?

Personally, I feel that in Danso, Udogie and Kinsky we are in so much better shape than this time one year ago. I think Frank would do what it takes to make it lean. Cutting any deeper than these 8 players with current available players worries me a little though.

Definitely in much better shape than at this stage last season. Spence massively stepping up, Kinsky in, Danso in, Dragusin will return.

For me we would miss any starter of course, but I would be mostly concerned about missing Romero. I think he gives us so much on the ball that others can't, especially of the CB options. With our shortcomings with ball progression in deep midfield some of the problems we're seeing now would imo worsen quite a bit.

But then too depends on what others can do. Simons settling in, Kolo Muani, Solanke returning. I think there are some good solutions for Frank, but how quickly can those be implemented?

 

[braineclipse]

The cyclical point is interesting. In that sense Frank could be a really smart appointment as the club is zigging when everyone else is zagging.

If most top clubs have some version of possession football, 4-3-3 with inverted wingers, but they’ve gone a route of technically sound, tricky players with less physicality, I think we can maybe get some advantage by being able to be more direct, and more physical, as long as we can still break down the worst teams too. I think Arteta has made a similar calculation.

Doesn't feel to me that we're zigging when others are zagging. A lot of teams going for more physicality and defensive solidity, a real focus on set pieces. Less dogmatisk, more flexibility.

Feels we're very much following the trend, Frank did his part in shaping that trend at Brentford. That's perfectly fine and good of course.

 

[markysimmo]

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[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Doesn't feel to me that we're zigging when others are zagging. A lot of teams going for more physicality and defensive solidity, a real focus on set pieces. Less dogmatisk, more flexibility.

Feels we're very much following the trend, Frank did his part in shaping that trend at Brentford. That's perfectly fine and good of course.

that’s fair, I think we are following a trend in the sense that Arteta has followed a similar path overtly, and even most system managers have adapted much more in recent seasons. And I’d rather at least be on trend than way behind. I hope we continue to find edges in our play and overachieve. I also think the squad is deep and strong and we should be able to compete on all fronts regardless.

 

[metalgear]

thought TF selection for Doncaster was excellent.

lots of young ones playing and sufficient quality in the spine of the team. palhina is a very high quality versatile player and is turing out to be the transfer of the season for me.

the front three of johnson, tel and odobert reflects a different strategy with sheer speed up front.

and we have most of the other team ready for wolves on sunday and bodo on Wednesday - tricky!

 

[braineclipse]

thought TF selection for Doncaster was excellent.

lots of young ones playing and sufficient quality in the spine of the team. palhina is a very high quality versatile player and is turing out to be the transfer of the season for me.

the front three of johnson, tel and odobert reflects a different strategy with sheer speed up front.

and we have most of the other team ready for wolves on sunday and bodo on Wednesday - tricky!

Shows the squad depth we have now too. Kinsky, Danso, Gray, Tel, Odobert, Johnson all quite clearly not first choice, more rotation players. Palhinha, Bentancur regular starters, but not automatic starters by the looks of it. Palhinha probably the closest to that of those.

Even with some injuries we can rotate quite heavily and still field a team with players the manager seems to trust and who are to be trusted.

 

[Muttley]

Shows the squad depth we have now too. Kinsky, Danso, Gray, Tel, Odobert, Johnson all quite clearly not first choice, more rotation players. Palhinha, Bentancur regular starters, but not automatic starters by the looks of it. Palhinha probably the closest to that of those.

Even with some injuries we can rotate quite heavily and still field a team with players the manager seems to trust and who are to be trusted.

Agree.

For me, interchangeability was a missing ingredient in previous seasons. I saw a fair few narratives that we couldn't achieve that because of squad depth. For me, that was somewhat true but it was more about the tactical system that made it genuinely quite difficult to switch players around. Then you throw a major injury crisis into the mix and you lose the solid basis that the rotation is built on.

Unlike Ange, I just hope that Frank gets a clear run with this squad. He seems to give good guidance to his players on how he wants the game to be played and they seem to able to execute his game plan. We have a lot of the right ingredients after some good years of work by the club.

I guess the million dollar question is how he keeps all the players happy. Inevitably he won't and that is something else we would need to plan for as a club.

 

[stinkfoot]

thought TF selection for Doncaster was excellent.

lots of young ones playing and sufficient quality in the spine of the team. palhina is a very high quality versatile player and is turing out to be the transfer of the season for me.

the front three of johnson, tel and odobert reflects a different strategy with sheer speed up front.

and we have most of the other team ready for wolves on sunday and bodo on Wednesday - tricky!

Just in case you weren't aware.. Wolves is 8pm on Saturday

 

[Glenda's Legs]

and we have most of the other team ready for wolves on sunday and bodo on Wednesday - tricky!

Just in case you weren't aware.. Wolves is 8pm on Saturday

...and Bodo is on Tuesday

(Actually I think @metalgear might be based in Asia, so those days would be right for him).

 

[braineclipse]

Agree.

For me, interchangeability was a missing ingredient in previous seasons. I saw a fair few narratives that we couldn't achieve that because of squad depth. For me, that was somewhat true but it was more about the tactical system that made it genuinely quite difficult to switch players around. Then you throw a major injury crisis into the mix and you lose the solid basis that the rotation is built on.

Unlike Ange, I just hope that Frank gets a clear run with this squad. He seems to give good guidance to his players on how he wants the game to be played and they seem to able to execute his game plan. We have a lot of the right ingredients after some good years of work by the club.

I guess the million dollar question is how he keeps all the players happy. Inevitably he won't and that is something else we would need to plan for as a club.

Without rehasing last season... We now have both interchangeability (different players who can play the same role) and very good profiles where we previously lacked that. The dribbly winger (Kudus, who also offers much more), the 6 (Palhinha). While some of those already here last season have developed very nicely and are now clearly good enough (Spence, Bergvall, Gray). We arguably had numbers last season, but not with sufficient quality and suitability. Now we mostly do.

Compared to last season at this point. Kinsky, Danso, Tel, Kudus, Palhinha, Simons, Kolo Muani. The also Bergvall, Gray and Spence developing/maturing/settling. That's a big difference. Quite a few of those came in and developed during last season, but by then we were already in one of our worst injury crisises ever.

I think it's only natural that not everyone will be happy, some of those unhappy will be moved on and hopefully we can then improve further with new signings at that point.

 

[Bullet]

Without rehasing last season... We now have both interchangeability (different players who can play the same role) and very good profiles where we previously lacked that. The dribbly winger (Kudus, who also offers much more), the 6 (Palhinha). While some of those already here last season have developed very nicely and are now clearly good enough (Spence, Bergvall, Gray). We arguably had numbers last season, but not with sufficient quality and suitability. Now we mostly do.

Compared to last season at this point. Kinsky, Danso, Tel, Kudus, Palhinha, Simons, Kolo Muani. The also Bergvall, Gray and Spence developing/maturing/settling. That's a big difference. Quite a few of those came in and developed during last season, but by then we were already in one of our worst injury crisises ever.

I think it's only natural that not everyone will be happy, some of those unhappy will be moved on and hopefully we can then improve further with new signings at that point.

Agreed Brainy
I think the next 3 games are vital, in terms of the games coming thick and fast (other than the interminable international breaks)
If we come through with ZERO injuries but OK points.
That is better than 3 injuries and good points.

 

[braineclipse]

Agreed Brainy
I think the next 3 games are vital, in terms of the games coming thick and fast (other than the interminable international breaks)
If we come through with ZERO injuries but OK points.
That is better than 3 injuries and good points.

I agree. Avoiding another injury calamity seems vital. Kolo Muani, Solanke and then Kulusevski to return over the next weeks then months. If we can avoid serious fresh injuries we should be in a good shape.

We aren't as "Vibes FC" as we were under Ange, perhaps not as in need of keeping the momentum going. But staying well in the fight for CL places and on course for a good outcome of the CL "group" seems really important.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Feels a bit like he’s copying Arteta and we play for set pieces.

 

[clownfoot]

I feel it’s incredibly knee jerk to be judging after so few games but it’s hard not to weigh it up in my head.

Pros - we’re hard to beat and resilient. The last 2 games getting late equalisers shows this. After the last 2 years the change in defence has been great to see (ignoring the horror show of the 2nd goal conceded tonight). Late equalisers and winners breed a belief we are always still in the game and is an excellent trait in a team, shows character

Cons - I personally can’t see the attacking plan other than crosses into the box at the minute? Appreciate the plan is to secure the defence first and then improve attack. City away we had a plan of how to stop them and it was a terrific performance, but when it comes to how we break down a team I just don’t see how we’re planning to do that at the minute. Would like to see players being braver personally. Too many safe sideways passes

Interested to hear other’s thoughts. I’m not complaining, losing one game so far this season is a brilliant start to Frank’s reign. Suppose the attacking issues can be caveated with the fact a number of first team players are missing through injury. Hopefully over the coming weeks we can start to see things clicking in the attacking third

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Think it’s harsh to judge the attacking play right now when we’re missing Maddison, Kulu, Solanke and Muani. The only creativity we have at the moment is from Simons and he’s only just arrived and getting up to speed.

Take Gyokeres, Havertz, Odegaard and Eze (trying to think of equivalents) out of the Goons line up for 3 or 4 months and see how creative they look? They struggle in open play now ffs…

 

[Chrissivad]

He has only really had Richarlison up top to work with and hasn't been able to use Madison or Kulusevski. We were always going to struggle at times going forward.

We wanted balls in for Richalison for the last few seasons. He isn't making much use of them just now.

 

[fernadez]

I think with the change from all our attack to more balance the first thing that would get sacrificed would be creating and scoring (although that had dried up towards the end of last season as well).

Maddison and Kulu both being out is a hammer blow to our creativity. As is having no striker apart from Richy.

I'm not too concerned at the minute, when those two plus Solanke and Muani are back I think we'll instantly look a better attacking outfit, like we saw tonight when Kudus and Xavi came on. Kudus by virtue of controlling the football transformed the right side as an example.

 

[Jordinho]

I feel it’s incredibly knee jerk to be judging after so few games but it’s hard not to weigh it up in my head.

Pros - we’re hard to beat and resilient. The last 2 games getting late equalisers shows this. After the last 2 years the change in defence has been great to see (ignoring the horror show of the 2nd goal conceded tonight). Late equalisers and winners breed a belief we are always still in the game and is an excellent trait in a team, shows character

Cons - I personally can’t see the attacking plan other than crosses into the box at the minute? Appreciate the plan is to secure the defence first and then improve attack. City away we had a plan of how to stop them and it was a terrific performance, but when it comes to how we break down a team I just don’t see how we’re planning to do that at the minute. Would like to see players being braver personally. Too many safe sideways passes

Interested to hear other’s thoughts. I’m not complaining, losing one game so far this season is a brilliant start to Frank’s reign. Suppose the attacking issues can be caveated with the fact a number of first team players are missing through injury. Hopefully over the coming weeks we can start to see things clicking in the attacking third

I'm guessing he has chosen to work on set pieces and crosses first as our most creative players are either injured or not up to speed yet.