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The Winger Thread

billyiddo said:
@veron23 i think Eriksen left Lamela center and a new rwf could be the way forward

Eriksen would provide more defensive cover than Chadli and we wouldn't lose the goals from that side but it'd require Lamela to up his goal scoring game considerably to cover losing Chadlis contribution.
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Can anyone really see Lamela scoring 12+ goals in the PL?
 
braineclipse said:
I don't see how that is "a more defensive minded player behind our pivot"? Are you describing Mason and Eriksen as our current "pivot"?

I think we're playing a style that is fairly demanding, physically, mentally and not least tactically. Like you say a lot of our width comes from our full backs, with defensive cover for their attacking movement coming from one of the two deeper midfielders (Bentaleb and Mason this season at least). Particularly when both full backs attack at the same time. That's quite different from a (imo) simpler model where the full backs are essentially told not to venture too far forward at the same time and all the full back has to do to balance things out is to look at the other full back and make a decision.

That's quite a few difficult decisions to be made on when to attack and when to defend. Mason seems to have the most attacking freedom with Bentaleb more defensive responsibility when we attack. So it's been up to Rose, Bentaleb and Walker/Dier/Chiriches/Naughton to balance the attacking movement with defensive responsibility to not leave the two centre backs isolated.

This is combined with a (at times) high pressing system where we try to win the ball back quickly quite often and press high up the pitch when the opponents are building from the back at least some of the time. We're doing this with a very young front 4, and with some players not ideally suited to a pressing game like that (I'm thinking primarily of Townsend and Chadli, but whatever). Again this is more complex than a "when we lose it just run back and get behind the ball" system. Again some difficult decisions have to be made, perhaps particularly for those 2 full backs and 2 deep midfielders.

I keep coming back to two points:

1. We're trying to do this with a very young team. Both the full backs and deep midfielders are young, inexperienced, and sometimes playing in relatively new positions (Dier, Chiriches, Mason - even Bentaleb). The attacking 4 is also young and learning when to press, when to drop back etc - more important when we press against teams building from the back than when counter attacked on, but still important. Even without any new signings (though we will make new signings) I would expect us to defend better next season - a year more experienced and a year of learning Pochettino's system. There will also be some continuity, for the first time in a handful of years.

2. We have a very talented player in Bentaleb with few (if any) real weaknesses in his game playing the deepest midfield role. It might be that we can find a short term upgrade on him, but I really doubt we can find someone that's currently better that also has his obvious talent and (imo) extreme potential. Those players quite simply don't sign for Spurs.

This is as situation where I think it's for the best to accept some short term pain for a long term gain. I don't think we should look to replace a player as talented as him in the starting line-up. Instead I think we should persevere as he continues to develop and learn to become the player he seems to be likely to develop into. This is key for our progress, developing talented players into big stars. And that takes a bit of short term pain to make happen.
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Lots in that, most of which I fundamentally agree with .. my thoughts

1. Completely agree, I've actually made the point before that being a FB at Spurs is one of the most difficult asks in the PL, and hence Rose's step up is even more amazing.
2. Bentaleb is very good, but I think the defensive part of his game is a little overrated (in the kindest possible way, in view of what type of player will he be). I don't see Bentaleb as a Carrick player (Carrick to me is more defensive minded)

So you have a situation (you rightly described) that a young team is being protected by Mason (who is a worker, but to me is better suited up pitch), and Bentaleb who while very good, I don't see as the next Carrick type player. I would like the option (maybe you don't use it every game) of sacrificing Mason (or one of the players in front of Bentaleb/Mason) for a more defensive player. Think back, even with Modric, we played a DM (Palacios/Parker), and Modric was better than Bentaleb at cover/interceptions/etc.

So summary, I don't want to get rid of any of younger players, but failure to have a DM (and a new RW option) at the start of next season would seem like a very obvious oversight that will handicap us.
 
milo said:
Do you think that they played with traditional wingers and fullbacks holding back?
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I think they played cave man, long ball football to pacey runners .. I can go back, but one of the last games of the season was watching United play, and literally in the first 5 minutes, they were 5 Dawson-esque hoofs from the back line all the way to front .. fudging dreadful. And pool has been playing that way for a couple of seasons now.
 
Raziel said:
I think they played cave man, long ball football to pacey runners .. I can go back, but one of the last games of the season was watching United play, and literally in the first 5 minutes, they were 5 Dawson-esque hoofs from the back line all the way to front .. fudgeing dreadful. And pool has been playing that way for a couple of seasons now.
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They definitely played ugly football
 
For me mason/bentaleb issues is they are caught between positions just now. Both want to play further forward and would be better there but how do we fit one of them in. I do think one of them will ultimately be sacrificed. Neither really fit the gaps in our squad. They play different games and have different attributes so it will be whichever one poch feels he came shape better. I like mason but I think bentaleb has much more potential.
Either way we need a proper DM to replace one of them.
 
I don't really get the calls for a dedicated DM, isn't the double pivot a key part of Poch's system?
 
milo said:
I don't really get the calls for a dedicated DM, isn't the double pivot a key part of Poch's system?
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Exactly. About the first thing he did was ship out our one dedicated DM (Sandro) because he wasn't a quick enough ball transitioner

People hanker for crunching DMs, chalk on the boots wingers, beastly target men, and fox-in-the-box poachers due to nostalgia, whereas they're not actually used/effective in the modern game
 
Gutter Boy said:
Exactly. About the first thing he did was ship out our one dedicated DM (Sandro) because he wasn't a quick enough ball transitioner

People hanker for crunching DMs, chalk on the boots wingers, beastly target men, and fox-in-the-box poachers due to nostalgia, whereas they're not actually used/effective in the modern game
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Nope. People hanker for at least one central midfielder with enough understanding of defensive positioning to provide cover to the back four. Slight difference.
 
milo said:
I don't really get the calls for a dedicated DM, isn't the double pivot a key part of Poch's system?
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I think most teams tend to play with one more defence minded than the other. Even if they do both have to be able to interchange readily.

That's not to say a traditional DM would fit the mould though. In our formation, the player who tends to sit more deep is the creative one, as that allows him more space when we retrieve the ball. The "DM" (for want of a better term) would theoretically press and harry all over the midfield rather than sit in front of the back 4 like in the 80s.

That doesn't entirely relieve the deeper player of their defensive responsibilities, they still need to drop in when a defender is pulled wide and help cover a full back when the winger isn't available, etc. but I certainly can't see where a DM would fit into a modern system like ours.

Or, of course, they could all just "shuffle across a bit" ;)
 
DublinSpur said:
Nope. People hanker for at least one central midfielder with enough understanding of defensive positioning to provide cover to the back four. Slight difference.
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This, it's not about having a destroyer .. it's about having someone who can actually protect the back.

So question for the people who "know" the pivot Poch wants to use, are we saying if we had Carrick, he wouldn't fit the system?
 
Raziel said:
This, it's not about having a destroyer .. it's about having someone who can actually protect the back.

So question for the people who "know" the pivot Poch wants to use, are we saying if we had Carrick, he wouldn't fit the system?
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I'm not sure Carrick is mobile enough for a Poch system
 
DublinSpur said:
Nope. People hanker for at least one central midfielder with enough understanding of defensive positioning to provide cover to the back four. Slight difference.
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Exactly, neither Mason or Bentaleb have a understanding of how to track runners, watch players getting in behind them and we are wide open in CM. We can all talk about the potential of the young ones but we lack a proper player who has the defensive awareness to fill the hole left by the other two.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Exactly. About the first thing he did was ship out our one dedicated DM (Sandro) because he wasn't a quick enough ball transitioner
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The main reason we let Sandro go is because he could not be relied on to play the majority of games, nothing to do with being transitioner.
 
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